Sports Should Unify, Not Divide Us

[iluvatar5150]

Do you believe it is possible for someone to accuse a transgender person of being a "groomer" without implicating that they were trying to manipulate someone into having sex with them?

No, and I believe that’s why the term “groomer” was chosen here - because it implies predation.

I believe that there being more males claiming to be females or at least desiring to be recognized as a woman may be related to how we have decided to treat young boys in our education system and the stigma surrounding masculinity.

That hasn’t been my impression of these individuals (three of whom I knew before they started transitioning) and what they’ve expressed to me about their motivations.

Why do you describe these men as transgender?

Because that’s what they are and that’s how they’ve described themselves. All of them have undergone hormone therapy; three have undergone some amount of top surgery (I don’t know about their bottom surgery), and I believe the fourth is beginning consultations for surgery.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

You are correct that context is key - which is why I pointed this definition out.

Do you believe it is possible for someone to accuse a transgender person of being a "groomer" without implicating that they were trying to manipulate someone into having sex with them?

Not really, no. If you call someone a "groomer", you're saying one of two things about them - either they bathe pets, or they're a sexual predator. There's not a lot of room for confusion between the two.

Maybe - but believing that you are a member of the opposite sex is definitely a mental illness.

Are you a mental health professional? Do you have a degree in psychiatry?

The term "grooming" does not always imply sex.

I think you'll find that any usage that doesn't imply sex includes qualifiers (e.g. "He was being groomed for the role").

 

[Zaha Torte]

In my personal opinion.... I do think that you should actually interaction with many transgender person before you label them with some pretty awful labels.

Ignoring your implication that I have not interacted with many transgender people - I don't think that it is necessary to meet with any of them to come to this logical conclusion

Do I think you should ask that question? I would hope you would.

I am finding difficulty believing that.

Do you believe that if you asked them that, it would have been the worst thing said about AND to them that day?

You are of the opinion that they are victims?

How would you expect them to react?

They would either justify their delusion, their need to sexually gratify themselves in public or their desire to deceive/control others.

 

[Zaha Torte]

No, and I believe that’s why the term “groomer” was chosen here - because it implies predation.

I didn't choose that term, but I have seen many examples of LGBT members - including transgender people - who were actively "grooming" children by preparing them to participate in certain activities - like drag shows, pride parades, LGBT camps and supporting other people in their delusion, sexual fetish and desire to deceive/control others.

I hope you realize that I am not claiming that they were actively trying to have sex with children - but they were definitely "grooming" them.

That hasn’t been my impression of these individuals (three of whom I knew before they started transitioning) and what they’ve expressed to me about their motivations.

What did they claim were their motivaitons?

Because that’s what they are and that’s how they’ve described themselves. All of them have undergone hormone therapy; three have undergone some amount of top surgery (I don’t know about their bottom surgery), and I believe the fourth is beginning consultations for surgery.

Yet they continue to maintain the same relationships they had before the transition?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Not really, no. If you call someone a "groomer", you're saying one of two things about them - either they bathe pets, or they're a sexual predator. There's not a lot of room for confusion between the two.

Many words have more than one definition. It all depends on context.

Are you a mental health professional? Do you have a degree in psychiatry?

I will ignore your Appeal to Authority - you don't need to be a professional anything to be able to think critically.

I think you'll find that any usage that doesn't imply sex includes qualifiers (e.g. "He was being groomed for the role").

I would argue that the opposite is true.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Many words have more than one definition. It all depends on context.

Of course. But simply calling a person a "groomer" provides zero context - at which point common usage comes in. For example, "gay" has multiple meanings, but if you call a person "gay," no one assumes that you mean they're happy unless you make that clear.

I will ignore your Appeal to Authority - you don't need to be a professional anything to be able to think critically.

A medical diagnosis (calling someone "mentally ill") requires more than just "critical thinking".

I would argue that the opposite is true.

Can you give an example?

 

[rambot]

Ignoring your implication that I have not interacted with many transgender people - I don't think that it is necessary to meet with any of them to come to this logical conclusion.

Why not?

I am finding difficulty believing that.

Why? As I said they hear worse on the daily.

You are of the opinion that they are victims?

im not "of the opinion". That makes it sound so arbitrary.
They are victims.

They would either justify their delusion, their need to sexually gratify themselves in public or their desire to deceive/control others.

It's really interesting to me that you don't think they would be hurt by what you're saying.

 

[rambot]

I will ignore your Appeal to Authority - you don't need to be a professional anything to be able to think critically.

But critical thinking is not an inborn trait. It must have been taught and learned at some point.

 

[durangodawood]

The term "grooming" does not always imply sex.

That used to be the case.

But the word has acquired a lot of "baggage" recently.... to the point that youd want to be careful who you point it at. Anymore it implies some nefarious intent. Shame. It was a nice word. I like its origin in making one good looking and presentable.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I didn't choose that term,

I know. That’s why I haven’t accused you, specifically, of trying to paint this dishonest picture.

but I have seen many examples of LGBT members - including transgender people - who were actively "grooming" children by preparing them to participate in certain activities - like drag shows, pride parades, LGBT camps and supporting other people in their delusion, sexual fetish and desire to deceive/control others.

By that definition, I am confident in stating that I have seen 100x (maybe 1000x) as many Christians “grooming” children. Are you okay with saying that Christians are “grooming” their children?

What did they claim were their motivaitons?

While it varies by person, they’re all in the neighborhood of feeling out of place in their own body / or with their birth gender. My understanding of it is that’s it’s sort of a more extreme form of “I don’t belong here” or “I don’t fit in here.”

Yet they continue to maintain the same relationships they had before the transition?

It depends. Some did, yes. One of them got a divorce around the same time, though it’s my understanding that there were other factors unrelated to the transition. (though possibly related to their general unhappiness)

 

[Zaha Torte]

Of course. But simply calling a person a "groomer" provides zero context - at which point common usage comes in. For example, "gay" has multiple meanings, but if you call a person "gay," no one assumes that you mean they're happy unless you make that clear.

That was a great example and reasoning - which is why I have yet to claim that anyone is a groomer.

A medical diagnosis (calling someone "mentally ill") requires more than just "critical thinking".

I disagree. If I see someone carrying on a conversation with a lamp - I know they are mentally ill.

Can you give an example?

Now that I think about it more you may be right. I concede.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Why not?

There is no need.

Do you feel the need to meet with many flat Earthers or Neo-Nazis before coming to logical conclusions about what they are all about?

Why? As I said they hear worse on the daily.

Like what? The truth?

im not "of the opinion". That makes it sound so arbitrary.
They are victims.

How are they victims?

It's really interesting to me that you don't think they would be hurt by what you're saying.

This is why I said that I thought that it would be inappropriate for me to ask if they had either mental illness, a sexual fetish or were thrilled by deceiving/controlling others.

There are no other options.

 

[Zaha Torte]

But critical thinking is not an inborn trait. It must have been taught and learned at some point.

You think our innate ability to discern a male from a female requires schoolin'?

Only when we start introducing delusion could anyone claim that what I have shared is not the logical conclusion.

 

[Zaha Torte]

That used to be the case.

But the word has acquired a lot of "baggage" recently.... to the point that youd want to be careful who you point it at. Anymore it implies some nefarious intent. Shame. It was a nice word. I like its origin in making one good looking and presentable.

That is a shame.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I know. That’s why I haven’t accused you, specifically, of trying to paint this dishonest picture.

I appreciate that.

By that definition, I am confident in stating that I have seen 100x (maybe 1000x) as many Christians “grooming” children.

Sure - but within what context?

Are you referring to the parents of said children or public school teachers?

Are you okay with saying that Christians are “grooming” their children?

A million percent yes. All parents have the right to groom and program their children as they see fit as long as they are not abusing them.

While it varies by person, they’re all in the neighborhood of feeling out of place in their own body / or with their birth gender. My understanding of it is that’s it’s sort of a more extreme form of “I don’t belong here” or “I don’t fit in here.”

And you believe that this means they either are a woman or should be treated as such?

Why?

It depends. Some did, yes. One of them got a divorce around the same time, though it’s my understanding that there were other factors unrelated to the transition. (though possibly related to their general unhappiness)

There is a lot of depression among the transgender community. It's sad.

 

[rambot]

You think our innate ability to discern a male from a female requires schoolin'?

SQUIRREL!
We were talking about explicitly about critical thinking and I ABSOLUTELY DO think schools need to teach it.

 

[rambot]

There is no need.

Do you feel the need to meet with many flat Earthers or Neo-Nazis before coming to logical conclusions about what they are all about?

Of course someone's gender may mean more to them than what they think about the shape of the earth, or how much to hate jews. Given the gender is an identity and a bit more important than either of those two you'd mentioned, I'm not sure it's the best comparison though I see your point.

How are they victims?

When people say things to them like what you think about them? That you have the "good tact" to "only think it and not say it" does not mean they haven't heard it. likely dozens of times.

This is why I said that I thought that it would be inappropriate for me to ask if they had either mental illness, a sexual fetish or were thrilled by deceiving/controlling others.

There are no other options.

Again, if you've had a meaningful conversation with a trans person, you may find there are in fact, other options.

 

[Zaha Torte]

SQUIRREL!
We were talking about explicitly about critical thinking and I ABSOLUTELY DO think schools need to teach it.

Let me try again - I was not clear - and you ignored the second sentence of my comment.

As long as we do not introduce delusion into our analysis, we can come to the logical conclusion that a transgender person either has a mental illness, is gratifying some sexual fetish or gains some satisfaction in deceiving/controlling other people.

In regard to this topic our method of filtering out delusion is to use our innate ability to discern male from female.

I agree that our schools should teach critical thinking skills - but no one can apply them if they consider delusion in their analysis.

I see a lot of people trying to teach children to ignore or operate against their innate ability to discern male from female in an attempt to "groom" them into participating in the delusion of others or to cause them to be deluded themselves.

You cannot be pro-transgenderism and pro-critical thinking at the same time. Something has got to give.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Of course someone's gender may mean more to them than what they think about the shape of the earth, or how much to hate jews.

I don't know.

Flat Earthers tend to ignore reality in lieu of their baseless theories and Neo-Nazis are willing to engage in political and physical intimidation to promote their views.

These both seem to run parallel with what we see from many transgender people and gender activists.

Given the gender is an identity and a bit more important than either of those two you'd mentioned, I'm not sure it's the best comparison though I see your point.

I couldn't ask for anything more.

When people say things to them like what you think about them? That you have the "good tact" to "only think it and not say it" does not mean they haven't heard it. likely dozens of times.

As a Latter-day Saint I have had a lot of people explain to me how they disagreed with me.

Most were polite about it - but many got angry - tell me that I was going to Hell and whatnot.

I never considered myself to be a victim.

Why do you believe that transgender people are victims?

Again, if you've had a meaningful conversation with a trans person, you may find there are in fact, other options.

Like what?

 

[iluvatar5150]

And you believe that this means they either are a woman or should be treated as such?

Why?

I think gender is fuzzier and less binary than many of us have long believed. We also have friends with two intersex kids; whole cultures have had traditions acknowledging third genders or subsets of people who change gender at puberty; and you can grow different parts just by screwing with your hormones.

All that aside, these people are my friends, acquaintances, and coworkers, and it has zero impact on me whatsoever what they want to call themselves. If they want me to call them by their middle name, fine. If they want me to call them by their non-Anglicized name, fine. If they want me to call them by their trans name, fine. Who cares?