Thoughts about the confusing word: "Law"

[SabbathBlessings]

Here is the promise to the nations...
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude }



Which new covenant disannulled the carnal (fleshly) commands
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. to escape keeping God's law which was never it's intent?

According to the prophetic utterance of the law
De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Neither Jew nor Gentile, male or female
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

To escape The coming wrath that John the Baptist preached was coming. Or is John the Baptist also wrong?

Just curious, do you think the spirit of the law is greater or lesser than the letter?

When Jesus taught not to have anger in the heart, was He teaching we can commit literal murder (the letter) as long as we don't have anger in the heart? Or was He teaching if He helps change our thoughts from the inside out and our thoughts of anger becomes thoughts of love and compassion to our neighbor, then thou shalt not murder (the letter) would automatically be kept. This is what I believe He taught hence why He said not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19 and if one is living by the spirit, the letter would automatically be kept. I don't think Paul taught anything different. Especially if you read Rom 8:4-8. Living by the spirit is greater than the letter, not lessor and if we live by His Spirit, even the least of these commandments would be kept by faith and love. John 14:15-18 1 John 5:3 Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 which reconciles us Rev 22:14

 

[ralliann]

Just curious, do you think the spirit of the law is greater or lesser than the letter?

Just to emphasize my view.
I think the covenant made with Abraham, is greater than the covenant made with Israel, at Sinai.
Without the covenant made with Abraham, there would have been no letter to Israel...

When Jesus taught not to have anger in the heart, was He teaching we can commit literal murder (the letter) as long as we don't have anger in the heart?

Murder is unjustified killing?

Or was He teaching if He helps changes our thoughts from the inside out and our thoughts of anger instead now have thoughts of love and compassion to our neighbor, then thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept.

Jesus taught the kingdom of Heaven...

This is what I believe He taught hence why He said not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19 and if one is living by the spirit, the letter would automatically be kept. I don't think Paul taught anything different. Especially if you read Rom 8:4-8.

The earthly worldly commands are not kept. They cannot even be kept.
To much foundation on the covenant made with Israel instead of Abraham is a big problem IMO.
The Gentiles were not bound by the same as Israel was. Mainly because of the Carnal commands, beginning with the Carnal circumcision to Abraham. The new covenant is also a covenant of circumcision. I almost see a form of judaic replacement theology in Judaism. Where is the greater inheritance to ABRAHAM himself?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Just to emphasize my view.
I think the covenant made with Abraham, is greater than the covenant made with Israel, at Sinai.

God said He doesn't break any of His covenants Psa 89:34 Should we pit one Promise over another Promise. For me I believe in all of God's Promises.

Without the covenant made with Abraham, there would have been no letter to Israel...

Says who? If there wasn't an Abraham God would have found another way. This was shown over and over in scripture. Abraham had faith in God, as should we. This is what His faithful does Gen 26:5 Rev 14:12

The earthly worldly commands are not kept.

You might consider the teachings of Jesus Exo 20:6 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 John 14:15 John 15:10 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 7:23 Jesus taught though His power we can overcome sin and keep His commandments John 14:15-18 its all a matter of who we yield ourselves servants to Rom 6:16

They cannot even be kept.

Jesus says they can be kept through Him- John 14:15-18 so my faith is in Him and His every Word Mat 4:4 Jesus would not ask us to keep something and then not give us the power to keep.

To much foundation on the covenant made with Israel instead of Abraham is a big problem IMO.

I believe its too much of not having faith in all of God's Promises and not following the teachings of Jesus such as Exo 20:6 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 John 14:15 John 15:10 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 7:23 and the example He left for us John 15:10 1 John 2:6

The Gentiles were not bound by the same as Israel was.

God shows no partiality- It's not like the Jews can't vain God's name, worship other gods, bow to idols, break His holy Sabbath day, covet, steal or break the least of these but Gentiles can, not if you believe the scriptures and the teachings of Jesus. Why He said "whoever" breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to break has some consequences Mat 5:19, not just the Jews. In God's Covenant there is no Jew or Gentile, just God's people grafted in through faith

Mainly because of the Carnal commands, beginning with the Carnal circumcision to Abraham. The new covenant is also a covenant of circumcision. I almost see a form of judaic replacement theology in Judaism. Where is the greater inheritance to ABRAHAM himself?

The new covenant is exactly what God said it was. At least for those who are grafted in through faith Gal 3:26


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It's why God's covenant is established on better promises, not established on better laws Heb 8:6- because God breaks not His covenant or alters His words. Psa 89:34 Deut 4:13 written on stone originally, now the words of the covenant are written in our hearts kept by His faithful though love 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 and its no longer based on our power, but Christ power who enables us when we have faith. John 14:15-18 Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 which reconciles Rev 22:14

 

[ralliann]

God said He doesn't break any of His covenant Psa 89:34 Why pit one Promise over another Promise. For me I beleive in all of God's Promises.

To whom?

Says who?

I do not know what You think Israel would have apart from the covenant made with Abraham?

Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Their redemption from Egypt by the covenant made with Abraham

Spared from destruction,
Ex 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? {the LORD: Heb. the face of the LORD }
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Ex 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD. {swear: Heb. lift up my hand }

Ex 33:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:


De 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

De 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

De 9:27 Remember thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:
De 29:13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law ( statute, ordinance) and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
(Circumcision was the ordinance to eat the Passover sacrifice) Feasts which fulfillment was by the Abrahamic covenant) spring feasts memorials to that fulfillment....
18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;

Horeb/ Sinai not made with Abraham
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

To whom?

I do not know what You think Israel would have apart from the covenant made with Abraham?

Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Their redemption from Egypt by the covenant made with Abraham

Spared from destruction,
Ex 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? {the LORD: Heb. the face of the LORD }
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Ex 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD. {swear: Heb. lift up my hand }

Ex 33:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:


De 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

De 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

De 9:27 Remember thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:
De 29:13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;

You seemed to have missed my point. Do you think if Abraham disobeyed God, God would have just given up? We seem to have a different belief in God. I place my faith in Him, not man. Abraham obeyed God, but had he not, God would have found someone else.

 

[ralliann]

You seemed to have missed my point. Do you think if Abraham disobeyed God, God would have just given up? We seem to have a different belief in God. I place my faith in Him, not man. Abraham obeyed God, but had he not, God would have found someone else.

You seem to sidestep my point....
God SWARE AN OATH concerning his promise to Abraham.
That covenant Gen 17, concerns God's righteousness, Gods faithfulness.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. {Jehovahjireh: that is, The Lord will see, or, provide }
15 ¶ And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The oath (ie confirmation) in Genesis 22, made Genesis 12 immutable.....
As we see the same here, his oath will not be repented of....it is sure...
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: {confirmed … : Gr. interposed himself by }

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You seem to sidestep my point....
God SWARE AN OATH concerning his promise to Abraham.
That covenant Gen 17, concerns God's righteousness, Gods faithfulness.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. {Jehovahjireh: that is, The Lord will see, or, provide }
15 ¶ And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
The oath in Genesis 22, made Genesis 12 immutable.....

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: {confirmed … : Gr. interposed himself by }

I didn't sidestep it at all. You never answered my question- do you think that if Abrham didn't obey God, that God would have just given up? I'm not discounting any of the Promises made to Abraham, but it wasn't the only Promise or Covenant God made. Both the covenants God made with Abraham and God's covenant Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 of the Ten Commandments made to Israel, which represent His people work in harmony together, not against. Thats where we differ

Gal 3: 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Most people miss this very important step, they completely bypass the law and believe they are in Christ, but ts not what the scriptures teach. The law brings us to Christ- why it is perfect for converting the soul. Psa 19:7 the law is our tutor to bring us to Christ until faith. What happens when we have faith? Do we void the law or establish the law? Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. So the law brings us to Christ until faith and once we have faith it establishes the law and once in Christ He enables us to keep His commandments John 14:15-18 because God's law is now written in the heart and mind of His people and it is God is the one doing. So it matters not if one is Jew or Gentiles but if they have faith than they are part of the Promise. This is the faith that reconciles Rev 22:14 because God's people keep His commandments Rev 14:12 even Abraham did Gen 26:5. Faith is not passive; it is very active and if we have faith in Jesus we would believe His teachings and do them.

I pray this helps, but if not guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[ralliann]

I didn't sidestep it at all. You never answered my question- do you think that if Abrham didn't obey God, that God would have just given up?

He would not have sworn an oath to Abraham. Nor would Jacob been joint heir
To Abraham...Kings
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }
To Jacob Same promise kings..
Ge 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

And this would not have happened......
De 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
The Israelites did not believe Gods oath....And did not enter in...
Nu 14:16 Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.


De 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them. {set: Heb. given }

It is not by our works, but his work of keeping his OATH......

I'm not discounting any of the Promises made to Abraham, but it wasn't the only Promise or Covenant God made. Both the covenant God made with Abraham and God's covenant of the Ten Commandments work in harmony together, not against. Thats where we differ

You seem to be sidestepping God's OATH he sware.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
The order of Melchzedekvs order of Aaron.
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec


God's righteousness, God's faithfulness to keep his oath made to ABRAHAM...



De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Gal 3: 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Most people miss this very important step, they completely bypass the law and believe they are in Christ, but the law brings us to Christ- why it is perfect for converting the soul. Psa 19:7 the law is our tutor to bring us to Christ until faith. What happens when we have faith? Do we void the law or establish the law? Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. So the law brings us to Christ until faith and once we have faith it established the law and once in Christ He enables us to keep His commandments John 14:15-18 because God's law is now written in the hearts and minds and it is God is the one doing. So it matters not if one is Jew or Gentiles but if they have faith than they are part of the Promise.

I pray this helps, but if not guess we will have to agree to disagree.

The law is a tutor. We are discussing law. Abraham, Issac and Jacob kept the law of faith......In God's righteousness, faithfulness. Moses never Gave Israel kings under the law (God was their king). Abraham was promised KINGS FROM SARAH AND HIS LOINS

 

[SabbathBlessings]

He would not have sworn an oath to Abraham. Nor would Jacob been joint heir
To Abraham...Kings
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }
To Jacob Same promise kings..
Ge 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

And this would not have happened......
De 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
The Israelites did not believe Gods oath....And did not enter in...
Nu 14:16 Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.


De 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them. {set: Heb. given }

It is not by our works, but his work of keeping his OATH......


You seem to be sidestepping God's OATH he sware.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
The order of Melchzedek
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec


God's righteousness, God's faithfulness to keep his oath made to ABRAHAM...



De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.


The law is a tutor. We are discussing law. Abraham, Issac and Jacob kept the law of faith......In God's righteousness, faithfulness. Moses never Gave Israel kings under the law. Abraham was promised KINGS FROM SARAH AND HIS LOINS

I do not believe that is the faith God is looking for, but instead the faith to not just hear His Word and teachings James 1:22 but to live by them Mat 4:4 such as Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:5-14 Mark 7:7-13 John 14:15 Mat 19:17-19 Isa 56:1-6 Mat 2:27 etc etc

You keep making arguments about the Promise to Abraham that I have never said I disagreed with. You missed my point but I give up. Take care.

 

[ralliann]

I do not believe that is the faith God is looking for, but instead the faith to not just hear His Word and teachings James 1:22 but to live by them Mat 4:4 such as Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:5-14 Mark 7:7-13 John 14:15 Mat 19:17-19 Isa 56:1-6 Mat 2:27 etc etc

You keep making arguments about the Promise to Abraham that I have never said I disagreed with.

Do you live by them?

You missed my point but I give up. Take care.

Take care

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Do you live by them?

Take care

What I do would have no bearing on your salvation. We all have to stand before Jesus come Judgement Day based on our deeds 2 Corinthians 5:10 I always find this a strange question as through if I didn't live by God's every Word and obey Him, that it somehow mitigates another's moral obligation to obey God. We are not judged on a sliding scale, when God placed Judgement in Noah's days, He only found 8 righteous people who had faith in Him. We all have sinned and fall short of His Glory but what matters is how we handle our sin. Do we cover it, or do we bring it to Jesus and ask His help in overcoming. Because we need to confess and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 any of the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 and what man will be Judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 which I would not want to remove any law that sits under His mercy seat Exo 20:6 and anything that is not of faith is sin Romans 14:23 , like not believing and doing the teachings of Jesus as if His example to follow was for other people and not for us 1 John 2:6. We need to have the faith in Jesus and the faith of Jesus. How did Jesus live, what did He teach. He is the WAY, the only way and died not just to pay the penalty of sin, but lived for man's example to follow. He showed us the narrow path, yet people prefer their own, even if Jesus tells us that path leads one in a ditch Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19. The path Jesus leads is the same path He took, which reconciles us through faith and love 1 John 5:3 Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14

 

[ralliann]

What I do would have no bearing on your salvation. We all have to stand before Jesus come Judgement Day based on our deeds 2 Corinthians 5:10 I always find this a strange question as through if I didn't live by God's every Word and obey Him, that it somehow mitigates another's moral obligation to obey God.

I simply asked because it appears you spoke the same to me.

We are not judged on a sliding scale, when God placed Judgement in Noah's days, He only found 8 righteous people who had faith in Him. We all have sinned and fall short of His Glory but what matters is how we handle our sin. Do we cover it, or do we bring it to Jesus and ask His help in overcoming. Because we need to confess and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 any of the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 and anything that is not of faith is sin Romans 14:23 , like not believing and doing the teachings of Jesus as if His example to follow was for other people and not for us 1 John 2:6. We need to have the faith in Jesus and the faith of Jesus. How did Jesus live, what did He teach. He is the WAY, the only way and died not just to pay the penalty of sin, but lived for mans example to follow. He showed us the narrow path, yet people prefer their own, even if Jesus tells us that path leads in a ditch Mat 15:3-14. The path Jesus leads is the same path He took, which reconciles us through faith and love 1 John 5:3 Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14

What law are you speaking of? He is the way, yes. But it seems to me you want obedience to the Sinai covenant. Actually IMO God's mercy is in his promise to Abraham. Fulfilled in the new.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I simply asked because it appears you spoke the same to me.

What law are you speaking of? He is the way, yes. But it seems to me you want obedience to the Sinai covenant.

There is no such thing as the "Sinai Covenant"

This is what God called His covenant of the Ten Commandments

Deut 4:13 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exodus 34:28 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

And also called them Exo 20:6 , 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God claims the Ten Commandments as His Covenant. This is God's work Exo 32:16 and which we should depend on, instead of our works and depend on His righteousness Psa 119:172 because His is everlasting Psa 119:142

Sin is breaking any one of the Ten Commandments

1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. You can find all of the "He who said “ is in Exo 20 breaking one we break them all

Why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one would be in fear of sin and Judgement Mat 5:19-30 Jesus doesn't want us to sin, but to have faith in Him and through Jesus we can obey Him and keep His commandments John 14:15-18

If one feels exempt from His teachings, that's their free will but one can't say we were not warned.

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

All gets sorted out soon enough, but I will never understand why people argue against only worshipping God, not to vain His holy name, keep His Sabbath day holy, not commit murder, or covet, or steal or break the least of these despite Jesus telling us not to. But God gives us free will to test any theory we want. He longs for us to obey Him Isa 48:18 but will never force us to, we can either willingly be His servant or by default, yield ourselves a servant to sin and the decisions we make does have consequences as it determines which path we are on Rom 6:16 Rev 22:14-15. Jesus gIves us everything and asks for so little in return.

 

[ralliann]

There is no such thing as the "Sinai Covenant"

This is what God called His covenant of the Ten Commandments

Deut 4:13 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exodus 34:28 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

And also called them Exo 20:6 , 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God claims the Ten Commandments as His Covenant. This is God's work Exo 32:16 and which we should depend on, instead of our works and depend on His righteousness Psa 119:172 because His is everlasting Psa 119:142

Sin is breaking any one of the Ten Commandments

1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. You can find all of the "He who said “ is in Exo 20 breaking one we break them all

Why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one would be in fear of sin and Judgement Mat 5:19-30 Jesus doesn't want us to sin, but to have faith in Him and through Jesus we can obey Him and keep His commandments John 14:15-18

If one feels exempt from His teachings, that's their free will but one can't say we were not warned.

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

All gets sorted out soon enough, but I will never understand why people argue against only worshipping God, not to vain His holy name, keep His Sabbath day holy, not commit murder, or covet, or steal or break the least of these despite Jesus telling us not to. But God gives us free will to test any theory we want. He longs for us to obey Him Isa 48:18 but will never force us to, we can either willingly be His servant or by default, yield ourselves a servant to sin and the decisions we make does have consequences as it determines which path we are on Rom 6:16 Rev 22:14-15. Jesus gIves us everything and asks for so little in return.

There is no such thing as the "Sinai Covenant"

Ga 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

This is what God called His covenant of the Ten Commandments

More like ten sayings. Also mount Sinai, Horeb.

Deut 4:13 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exodus 34:28 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

And also called them Exo 20:6 , 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God claims the Ten Commandments as His Covenant. This is God's work Exo 32:16 and which we should depend on, instead of our works and depend on His righteousness Psa 119:172 because His is everlasting Psa 119:142

Sin is breaking any one of the Ten Commandments

1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. You can find all of the "He who said “ is in Exo 20 breaking one we break them all

Why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one would be in fear of sin and Judgement Mat 5:19-30 Jesus doesn't want us to sin, but to have faith in Him and through Jesus we can obey Him and keep His commandments John 14:15-18

If one feels exempt from His teachings, that's their free will but one can't say we were not warned.

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

All gets sorted out soon enough, but I will never understand why people argue against only worshipping God, not to vain His holy name, keep His Sabbath day holy, not commit murder, or covet, or steal or break the least of these despite Jesus telling us not to. But God gives us free will to test any theory we want. He longs for us to obey Him Isa 48:18 but will never force us to, we can either willingly be His servant or by default, yield ourselves a servant to sin and the decisions we make does have consequences as it determines which path we are on Rom 6:16 Rev 22:14-15. Jesus gIves us everything and asks for so little in return.

Moses gave them the rest......
25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. {hear: Heb. add to hear }
26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
1 ¶ Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: {go: Heb. pass over }
2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ga 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

More like ten sayings. Also mount Sinai, Horeb.

Moses gave them the rest......
25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. {hear: Heb. add to hear }
26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
1 ¶ Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: {go: Heb. pass over }
2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and

Yes God has other laws and statues Ne 9:13 but the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God you will find that in Exodus 20 repeated 40 years later in Deut 5 before entering into their Promise Land to diligently keep. Bondage is staying in sin. Jesus came to free us why the Ten Commandments is called the law of Liberty. James 2:10-12 Sadly, not everyone wants to be free John 3:19-20 Rom 6:16 Guess we have gone back and forth long enough to know we are not going to change our beliefs. I will sign out for now and say I wish you all the best in seeking Truth to God’s Word.

 

[ralliann]

Yes God has other laws and statues Ne 9:13 but to see the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God you will find that in Exodus 20 repeated 40 years later in Deut 5 before entering into their Promise Land to diligently keep. Bondage is staying in sin. Jesus came to free us why the Ten Commandments is called the law of Liberty. James 2:10-12 Sadly, not everyone wants to be free John 3:19-20 Rom 6:16 Guess we have gone back and forth long enough to know we are not going to change our beliefs. I will sign out for now and say I wish you all the best in seeking Truth to God’s Word.

Same here!

 

[Gary K]

Here is the promise to the nations...
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude }



Which new covenant disannulled the carnal (fleshly) commands
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. to escape keeping God's law which was never it's intent?

According to the prophetic utterance of the law
De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Neither Jew nor Gentile, male or female
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

To escape The coming wrath that John the Baptist preached was coming. Or is John the Baptist also wrong?

That is a covenant made with the nations of Israel and Judah. There is no covenant made with Gentiles. To partake of that covenant one must be a Jew inwardly.

 

[sparow]

This belief is certainly quite different from mainline Christianity. I have my own issues with Paul, but to say that he is an ambassador of Satan is quite a striking assertion. I have never heard this theory before. Are you the only one with this idea, or is there a group that believes this?

Do you think the True God has played any role in shepherding the Bible through the ages? It is true that anything written down could have secret errors introduced to lead us all astray. It is possible that you are not a human, but are instead an AI bot. But at some point, doubting everything just leaves one with nothing.

I believe all things relevant to salvation are established in the OT, then confirmed in Jesus and by Jesus.

I do not believe God played a part in forming the canon. I doubt the veracity of most Christian doctrine; for the Lord to shepherd, men need to follow, few do.

I have come across a couple who doubted Paul's credentials, but the didn't impress me, they wanted to argue with what Paul said.

I don't jump on band wagons, if someone told me that Paul was an adversary of Christ, I would not simply believe it, I would test it for myself, In my case I didn't need to be told, I made the observation myself. In the beginning there was some doubt, I reasoned that Jesus was all I needed, Paul was a risk. Jesus specifically commissioned the 12 apostles to take the Gospel to the world.

There is a book that you may have heard of, I have a copy, unread unfortunately,

TRUTH TRIUMPHANT by B.G WILKINSON, Ph.D. The church in the wilderness.

This author became Moderator of the SDA church, the next Moderator of the SDA church had the Plates for the Book destroyed, without giving a reason. The Book traces the Gospels going to the Gentiles, 400 pages, six pages devoted to Paul.

 

[ralliann]

That is a covenant made with the nations of Israel and Judah.

No, that is a Covenant made with their Fathers.
Precedence
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

There is no covenant made with Gentiles.

Gentiles were in promise to Abraham.

To partake of that covenant one must be a Jew inwardly.

The new covenant disannulled the carnal commands including the circumcision. Circumcision of the heart, for jew and gentile. To fulfill his oath to ABRAHAM

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe all things relevant to salvation are established in the OT, then confirmed in Jesus and by Jesus.

I do not believe God played a part in forming the canon. I doubt the veracity of most Christian doctrine; for the Lord to shepherd, men need to follow, few do.

I have come across a couple who doubted Paul's credentials, but the didn't impress me, they wanted to argue with what Paul said.

I don't jump on band wagons, if someone told me that Paul was an adversary of Christ, I would not simply believe it, I would test it for myself, In my case I didn't need to be told, I made the observation myself. In the beginning there was some doubt, I reasoned that Jesus was all I needed, Paul was a risk. Jesus specifically commissioned the 12 apostles to take the Gospel to the world.

There is a book that you may have heard of, I have a copy, unread unfortunately,

TRUTH TRIUMPHANT by B.G WILKINSON, Ph.D. The church in the wilderness.

This author became Moderator of the SDA church, the next Moderator of the SDA church had the Plates for the Book destroyed, without giving a reason. The Book traces the Gospels going to the Gentiles, 400 pages, six pages devoted to Paul.

Here's a copy of the book, I googled it out of curiosity

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/Truth_Triumphant.pdf

I disagree that God did not play a part of the canon.. I also disagree the way some "historians" claim the reason why we have the canon and they take credit for it, which is a dead giveaway of falsehood, because all Glory on God's Word goes to God.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness,