Is the Eucharist cannibalism?

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MarkRohfrietsch

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By the way I myself have experienced miracles connected with the Eucharist but I refuse to discuss the circumstances; all I can say is that I have extreme confidence in the validity of the Eucharist in certain churches, and grave doubts about its validity in one diocese of another, but in that specific case I haven’t been able to work out a coherent explanation that avoids the heresy of Donatism.

I also have a relative who experienced a miraculous reduction in the severity of an illness following Holy Unction by a Coptic monk.
First hand; serious lung infection, Blood oxygen level decreasing daily, on oxygen and i v antibiotics; my Muslim Doctors sent me off to Palliative Care, I asked my wife to call my Pastor, he came, I confessed, he absolved, communed me, and prayed the prayer of commendation of the dying. Within an hour of his leaving, I felt better; they did more testing, shoved a 12 ga needle in my back trying to get a sample of the abcess to culture; it was dry. I was told I was going to be on iv antibiotics for 1 to 2 months. after being released just a week later. One week after that, they sent me for a ct scan; nothing, gone. Cured. Now, I was still weak, and it did talme about 3 months to fully recover, but I also just stopped smoking, no cravings, no withdrawal.

While I would seriously enjoy a nice bowl of black cavendish tobacco, i know better.

The Muslim Drs were astounded, but gave no credence to me attributing my recovery to the grace of God received via the sacraments of Confession and the Eucharist.
 
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RileyG

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First hand; serious lung infection, Blood oxygen level decreasing daily, on oxygen and i v antibiotics; my Muslim Doctors sent me off to Palliative Care, I asked my wife to call my Pastor, he came, I confessed, he absolved, communed me, and prayed the prayer of commendation of the dying. Within an hour of his leaving, I felt better; they did more testing, shoved a 12 ga needle in my back trying to get a sample of the abcess to culture; it was dry. I was told I was going to be on iv antibiotics for 1 to 2 months. after being released just a week later. One week after that, they sent me for a ct scan; nothing, gone. Cured. Now, I was still weak, and it did talme about 3 months to fully recover, but I also just stopped smoking, no cravings, no withdrawal.

While I would seriously enjoy a nice bowl of black cavendish tobacco, i know better.

The Muslim Drs were astounded, but gave no credence to me attributing my recovery to the grace of God received via the sacraments of Confession and the Eucharist.
What a wonderful blessing! Glory to God!
 
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BNR32FAN

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In heaven Christ is the door, and the gate, and the lamb, and the vine, and every other thing he said he is. But earthly thought cannot accept spiritual things.
Jesus used the same METAPHOR in John 4 with the Samaritan woman at the well. Anyone who drinks the water I give will never thirst and it becomes a spring bring up eternal life. Sound familiar? It’s the same message He gave in John 6.
 
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RileyG

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Jesus used the same METAPHOR in John 4 with the Samaritan woman at the well. Anyone who drinks the water I give will never thirst and it becomes a spring bring up eternal life. Sound familiar? It’s the same message He gave in John 6.
Look at what the early Church taught. They very much believed the Eucharist was Christ's true body and true blood. There was no symbolism or metaphors.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Jesus used the same METAPHOR in John 4 with the Samaritan woman at the well. Anyone who drinks the water I give will never thirst and it becomes a spring bring up eternal life. Sound familiar? It’s the same message He gave in John 6.
The true Church has, still does, and always will hold to Christ's body and blood being truly present in the Sacrament. Deny it all you want, it is not going to change His body and blood into mere bread and wine. Denying such is a very recent innovation coming out of the radical reformation.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Yeah we’ll just because someone in the early church wrote something doesn’t make it true.
And just because someone believes something today that they learned from some pastor somewhere who claims the Bible told him doesn't make it true either.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Look at what the early Church taught. They very much believed the Eucharist was Christ's true body and true blood. There was no symbolism or metaphors.
I do look at what the early church taught which is why I mentioned St Ignatius’ epistle to the Smyrnaeans. That’s the first mention of it. My point is the early church was full of all kinds of heresies so just because an early church writer wrote something doesn’t make it true. Look at how many anathemas Origen had at the 5th ecumenical council. If Ignatius hadn’t written that in his epistle we wouldn’t be having this discussion and the Eucharist would’ve been another metaphorical statement just like what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well. Look at what Paul said about the Eucharist. Paul doesn’t mention His body and His blood, he mentioned this bread and this cup. The bread of life discourse in John 6 is a parallel to what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. They’re the same exact teaching with different metaphors.

”Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”“
‭‭John‬ ‭4‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Is this intended to be literal? I bet if Ignatius said it was you’d say it was intended to be literal.

”Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.“
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭51‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I don’t understand why people can’t see that these are parallel passages. They’re the exact same message. No one receives eternal life by receiving the Eucharist.

Salvation is not dependent on whether or not someone has received the Eucharist. If someone who doesn’t believe receives it they are not saved and equally if someone receives it in a worthy manner and they are a believer then they apostatize they’re still not saved. The determining factor for salvation is not the Eucharist it’s our abiding in Christ, period. If someone abides in Christ and doesn’t receive the Eucharist they’re still saved. So if salvation isn’t guaranteed by receiving the Eucharist then the message in John 6 cannot be literal.

In the upper room Jesus was making a reference to His message in John 6 that the twelve would’ve understood and recognized. The only person who ever refers to the Eucharist as His body and His blood in the scriptures is Jesus who used the same exact metaphor in John 4 by using water to represent the same exact meaning. None of the other New Testament authors make any mention of the Eucharist being His body and His blood. The next person we have saying anything about His body and His blood in the Eucharist is Ignatius in 107AD.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The true Church has, still does, and always will hold to Christ's body and blood being truly present in the Sacrament. Deny it all you want, it is not going to change His body and blood into mere bread and wine. Denying such is a very recent innovation coming out of the radical reformation.
Actually for years I’ve said numerous times here on CF that I believe the Eastern Orthodox Church is the apostolic Church of God that has held true to what the apostles taught. But I also say that I disagree with some of their teachings. The real presence in the Eucharist and the perpetual virginity of Mary are two examples that I disagree with along with the idea that only those in the Orthodox Church are in the body of Christ. I hold the EOC in the highest regard of any church I’ve ever studied. So I’m not an anti Catholic lobbyist and I refute reformed theology on a daily basis. Everyone who knows me here knows this is true and if anyone doesn’t it’s easy to verify. If anyone doesn’t believe me they can search the word reformed or Eastern Orthodox and type my name in the “posted by” box and see for themselves. I’ve presented my evidence.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And just because someone believes something today that they learned from some pastor somewhere who claims the Bible told him doesn't make it true either.
My theology doesn’t come from any pastor or any commentator. My theology comes from my own personal studies. Now I’ve given an in depth explanation of why I believe what I believe in post 270 if you care to read it.
 
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chevyontheriver

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First hand; serious lung infection, Blood oxygen level decreasing daily, on oxygen and i v antibiotics; my Muslim Doctors sent me off to Palliative Care, I asked my wife to call my Pastor, he came, I confessed, he absolved, communed me, and prayed the prayer of commendation of the dying. Within an hour of his leaving, I felt better; they did more testing, shoved a 12 ga needle in my back trying to get a sample of the abcess to culture; it was dry. I was told I was going to be on iv antibiotics for 1 to 2 months. after being released just a week later. One week after that, they sent me for a ct scan; nothing, gone. Cured. Now, I was still weak, and it did talme about 3 months to fully recover, but I also just stopped smoking, no cravings, no withdrawal.

While I would seriously enjoy a nice bowl of black cavendish tobacco, i know better.

The Muslim Drs were astounded, but gave no credence to me attributing my recovery to the grace of God received via the sacraments of Confession and the Eucharist.
I appreciate your story here. And it does sound miraculous. Complicated by it being confession AND communion AND prayer for the sick that cured you. The full treatment as it were.

I’m wondering too if that was expected as a possibility by your pastor. Or a shock not easy to explain? For me I expect such things are possible even if not every day things. It makes Biblical and theological sense to me that such miracles happen around the body and blood of Jesus.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Actually for years I’ve said numerous times here on CF that I believe the Eastern Orthodox Church is the apostolic Church of God that has held true to what the apostles taught.
If that is your belief you should have joined them.
But I also say that I disagree with some of their teachings.
Disagreeing with what you call the apostolic Church of God? How does one set themselves so highly that they sit in judgement of a Church that has held true, your words, to the teaching of the apostles?
 
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chevyontheriver

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My theology doesn’t come from any pastor or any commentator. My theology comes from my own personal studies.
As in self-taught? I am mostly self-taught too, and I see the weakness of that approach all the time. Mostly not knowing what I don't yet know. In my older age I carefully seek out the wisdom of others. Sandstone sharpens sandstone. Lead sharpens lead. Iron sharpens iron. Some day I may be in that latter category. For now I seek what I can understand from good teachers, testing them against each other, putting my own opinions way down the credibility list.
 
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jas3

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I do look at what the early church taught which is why I mentioned St Ignatius’ epistle to the Smyrnaeans. That’s the first mention of it. My point is the early church was full of all kinds of heresies so just because an early church writer wrote something doesn’t make it true. Look at how many anathemas Oregon had at the 5th ecumenical council. If Ignatius hadn’t written that in his epistle we wouldn’t be having this discussion and the Eucharist would’ve been another metaphorical statement just like what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well.
If you've researched what the early church taught, then you know it wasn't just St. Ignatius who wrote about a literal understanding of the Eucharist. So why act like the teaching hinges on the first person whose letter referring to it happened to survive from antiquity?

Here's a better question, and one I'm really curious to hear your answer to, because I've never gotten a straight answer to it from someone who takes the memorialist position: if a literal understanding of the Eucharist is heretical, and then who was the first person after the Apostles who condemned it as heresy?
 
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The Liturgist

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If you've researched what the early church taught, then you know it wasn't just St. Ignatius who wrote about a literal understanding of the Eucharist. So why act like the teaching hinges on the first person whose letter referring to it happened to survive from antiquity?

Here's a better question, and one I'm really curious to hear your answer to, because I've never gotten a straight answer to it from someone who takes the memorialist position: if a literal understanding of the Eucharist is heretical, and then who was the first person after the Apostles who condemned it as heresy?

These are very good points.
 
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dzheremi

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Look at how many anathemas Oregon had at the 5th ecumenical council.

I know it's a typo, but I still want to point this out because it's hilarious to me, as a former Oregonian. :D

If Ignatius hadn’t written that in his epistle we wouldn’t be having this discussion and the Eucharist would’ve been another metaphorical statement just like what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well.

Not true, because you'd still have to contend with the fact that it is affirmed to be literal in the liturgical texts of every ancient Church. It's not like St. Ignatius was the only one in antiquity who held the view; it was the view of every particular Church that affirmed Nicene Christianity up until very recently.

For example, even the Nestorians (who are important in this discussion precisely because of their official autonomy from wider Christianity following the declaration at the Synod of Dadisho in 424, meaning that after that point they would have no real reason to have to conform themselves to whatever any other Church thought or believed) affirm this in their Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari when their celebrant proclaims: "The body of Christ and his precious blood are on the holy altar. In awe and love let us all draw near to him. And with the angels let us cry aloud unto him, Holy, holy, holy Lord God."

This East Syrian anaphora is hypothesized to date back to the 2nd or 3rd century (its manuscript tradition is much later, as is the case with many anaphoras), so it is possibly not much older than St. Ignatius himself. Similarly, the core of the Anaphora of St. Basil (the liturgy used during ordinary time in the Coptic Orthodox Church) is said to date back to the life of St. Basil himself (4th century), and likewise contains very explicit proclamations that the holy gifts upon the altar are the body and blood of our Savior. And so it was in each particular Church for many centuries, and still is today in most of them. Memorialism is a later invention, and definitely a minority in terms of the number of major churches that subscribe to it versus those that do not.
 
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The Liturgist

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The real presence in the Eucharist and the perpetual virginity of Mary are two examples that I disagree with

Considering these doctrines are central not only to the Eastern Orthodox Church but also to the Oriental Orthodox Church (I collectively regard the EO and OO churches as being optimal), and the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Roman Catholic Church, and Lutheranism, and High Church Anglicanism, this really doesn’t make much sense, since one would expect that if the Orthodox were in error on either point, one of the other churches I have enumerated would have objected.

Beyond that, I would note that we know that the doctrine of the real presence predates St. Ignatius because the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, that is to say, the Alexandrian Rite divine liturgy, which has the oldest attestation, in the form of the Strasbourg Papyrus, of any liturgy aside from the liturgical instructions in the Didache, which fall short of being a complete liturgy, makes it extremely clear, moreso than the ancient liturgy of Antioch as attested to by the Anaphora of the Apostles still used by the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church and also found in St. Hippolytus, and used (incompetently, I would note) as the basis for Eucharistic Prayer 2 in the Novus Ordo Missae and Eucharistic Prayer B in the 1979 BCP, and in the services of several other denominations who published service books since 1969. And what is more, Antioch and Alexandria were known for their rival catechetical schools with different approaches to hermeneutics. Thus it is extremely unlikely that the doctrine of the Real Presence would be adopted by Alexandria just based on a statement by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who has become an extremely revered saint, but the process by which he was glorified took a while even then.

What is more, the Didache makes clear the doctrine of the real presence, and so to does scripture; contrary to what Adventists assert there is nothing in scripture which is contrary to the doctrine of the real presence; the most one could possibly get away from it would be to say that our Lord is really spiritually present but not really physically present in the Eucharist, so that spiritually, the bread and wine became his body and blood, and I had thought this was the Calvinist view although recently i have realized this might not be the case, which would force me to disclaim my previous view that Calvinism, while in error, was not directly contradicted by scripture, and that rather the reasons for not adhering to it were due to the rejection of several of its central doctrines by the early church.

The thing is, we have no record of anyone in antiquity arguing that our Lord was only spiritually present in the Eucharist. Rather, early Eucharistic heresies tended to be more bizarre, for example, the Collyridians offered the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Blessed Virgin Mary who they worshipped, and they may have believed, like the modern day Palmarian cult, that she was present in the Eucharist. Then there were the hydroparastae, who believed in having the Eucharist with water only, which makes no sense, so naturally the Mormons decided to adopt that doctrine, since it seems to be a fundamental principle that nothing in Mormonism can be logical or rational.
 
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The Liturgist

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I know it's a typo, but I still want to point this out because it's hilarious to me, as a former Oregonian. :D



Not true, because you'd still have to contend with the fact that it is affirmed to be literal in the liturgical texts of every ancient Church. It's not like St. Ignatius was the only one in antiquity who held the view; it was the view of every particular Church that affirmed Nicene Christianity up until very recently.

For example, even the Nestorians (who are important in this discussion precisely because of their official autonomy from wider Christianity following the declaration at the Synod of Dadisho in 424, meaning that after that point they would have no real reason to have to conform themselves to whatever any other Church thought or believed) affirm this in their Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari when their celebrant proclaims: "The body of Christ and his precious blood are on the holy altar. In awe and love let us all draw near to him. And with the angels let us cry aloud unto him, Holy, holy, holy Lord God."

This East Syrian anaphora is hypothesized to date back to the 2nd or 3rd century (its manuscript tradition is much later, as is the case with many anaphoras), so it is possibly not much older than St. Ignatius himself. Similarly, the core of the Anaphora of St. Basil (the liturgy used during ordinary time in the Coptic Orthodox Church) is said to date back to the life of St. Basil himself (4th century), and likewise contains very explicit proclamations that the holy gifts upon the altar are the body and blood of our Savior. And so it was in each particular Church for many centuries, and still is today in most of them. Memorialism is a later invention, and definitely a minority in terms of the number of major churches that subscribe to it versus those that do not.

Indeed, and as I just wrote in my post, the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, known in the Coptic Orthodox Church as the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril (basically the ancient liturgy of Alexandria) has been proven to have originated in the second century due to the Strasbourg Papyrus.

So actually it is your own church that provides us with our oldest attested liturgy in continuous use, since right now during the Lent many Coptic Orthodox churches use the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril. Although I don’t see any good reason why its use ought to be limited to Lent (although I do understand why Copts like to reserve the joyous Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian for the most important feasts).

But yes, you are quite right, most liturgiologists believe that the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari is as old, perhaps even older, than the Alexandrian divine liturgy, and it is also extremely clear about the Real Presence. And also it seems probable the ancient liturgy of Antioch is as old as the others, since we have St. Hippolytus quoting it in his Apostolic Tradition despite there being no evidence that it was ever actually used in the Roman Church, but because it was adopted in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, whose liturgy was taught to them by the Seven Syrian Sages, we know it was a variant text of the liturgy of Antioch, the other major variant being the Syriac Orthodox Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles, which is also the basis for the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (but not the Syriac Orthodox Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom apparently; likewise the Syriac Orthodox Anaphora of St. Mark is unrelated to the ancient liturgy of Alexandria, but they do have an Antiochianized version of it, the Anaphora of St. Cyril, just as the Coptic Orthodox have the standard fraction used by the Syriac Orthodox available as one of their fraction prayers, the Syrian Fraction as it is known.

However, we are not certain how old the Divine Liturgy of St. James is; I have recently come across an article which suggests that it is a derivative of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil. Since the Church of Jerusalem was inoperative after the ruination of much of the city following the Bar Kochba revolt in 130 until the restoration of it conducted by St. Helena in the fourth century, with Jerusalem being reinstated as an autocephalous church by canon VII of Nicaea, it is quite possible that the Divine Liturgy of St. James is of fourth century origin, but it also seems to me probable based on church tradition that it was the ancient anaphora in the Holy Land, for example, there was quite a large Christian community in Caesarea before Jerusalem was rebuilt. We also don’t know how old the Roman Canon is, but I have seen interesting suggestions that it is a variant of the Alexandrian liturgy. But the fact that we don’t know how old these two liturgies are is something of the exception that proves the point, since we have second century manuscript attestation of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark also known as the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril in the Strasbourg Papyrus, and we have very strong reasons to believe that the ancient Antiochene liturgy quoted by St. Hippolytus is at least as old, and likewise the same is true of the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I appreciate your story here. And it does sound miraculous. Complicated by it being confession AND communion AND prayer for the sick that cured you. The full treatment as it were.

I’m wondering too if that was expected as a possibility by your pastor. Or a shock not easy to explain? For me I expect such things are possible even if not every day things. It makes Biblical and theological sense to me that such miracles happen around the body and blood of Jesus.
Certainly, both spiritual and physical healing are part and parcel with the reception of the Eucharist, so not unexpected but gratefully received..., however, God's will is His will; both healing and a blessed death were prayed for; either way, it was a win.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Jesus used the same METAPHOR in John 4 with the Samaritan woman at the well. Anyone who drinks the water I give will never thirst and it becomes a spring bring up eternal life. Sound familiar? It’s the same message He gave in John 6.
Your presumption implies that everything that Jesus says is a "metaphor". It is all about context..
 
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