Is the Eucharist cannibalism?

[The Liturgist]

It is NOT my OP.

Personally it is not even part of my thought process. IMHO it is provocative and counter productive in a number of different ways.

Forgive me, that was a typographic error. I meant to say “your post.” I have corrected the error.

 

[Markie Boy]

I do clearly reject Transubstantiation - if it is a miracle, miracles were all done as physical verification of something. It would be the only miracle God ever did that was not physically verifiable. The bread and wine are still bread and wine.

I am not sure on where I am on Real Presence - the Lutheran view I have to say does not cause conflict with ones senses.

 

[concretecamper]

I am not sure on where I am on Real Presence

after you said

I do clearly reject Transubstantiation

The Catholic view is the only view that I reject, even though your not sure where you stand

Your bias is duely noted

 

[Markie Boy]

after you said


The Catholic view is the only view that I reject, even though your not sure where you stand

Your bias is duely noted

It's not a bias. Even Pope Gelasius around the year 400 seems to have rejected what would become transubstantiation.

Process of elimination is one of the most logical ways to an answer.

Please answer this question, as I want to know if I am missing something.

What other miracle did God ever do, where there was zero visual evidence of a miracle? If so, how did they know a miracle had happened?

 

[concretecamper]

It's not a bias. Even Pope Gelasius around the year 400 seems to have rejected what would become transubstantiation.

Process of elimination is one of the most logical ways to an answer.

Please answer this question, as I want to know if I am missing something.

What other miracle did God ever do, where there was zero visual evidence of a miracle? If so, how did they know a miracle had happened?

Research Miracle of Lanciano. There you will find physical evidence. You can find non bias secular sources too.

It is odd, that there are many interpretations, yet you deny only one and then go on to say you really don't know where you stand. The place where you stand is clear, against the Catholic Church. You're not the first, and won't be the last.

 

[rturner76]

Indeed. And I agree with @MarkRohfrietsch in this respect wholeheartedly. He and I are among the most anti-Woke members of the forum!

Why? I would like to hear more about your point of view. I wouldn't call myself "woke" as it were but I certainly lean toward "Progressive" on most issues. I am still conservative enough to believe that as individuals, it is more fruitful (spiritually and secularly) to follow traditional values (Judeao-Christion for example). I am progressive enough to believe that our secular laws need not be founded on Judeao-Christian principles but be founded in what I've heard described as "natural law."

Natural law can at times conflict with Judeao-Christian law in that we strive for freedom and equality which can allow for people to legally make choices for themselves to be for example homosexual, fornication, and other sins that are immoral but not illegal.

I kind of got off track but I wanted to return to the question of what "woke" means to you. Is it a complete rejection of conservative values? Is it an adoption of directly sinful behavior, or is it more of an issue of secular versus spiritual values? I'm thinking of something like "Humanism" as I state this who's philosophy adheres to many Christian values in terms of the golden rule and helping our neighbor etc. However what Humanism is missing is God, though much of the philosophy is the same.

My last question is do you see "woke" as a secular governmental philosophy or a religious or anti-religious philosophy?

A lot of big questions so I understand if you want to tackle my questions one at a time instead of trying to answer all of my weird questions all at once. My goal is to really suss out what aspects of "woke" culture are religious or secular and what aspects of "conservatism" are religious or secular.

 

[jas3]

What other miracle did God ever do, where there was zero visual evidence of a miracle?

There was this one where a virgin conceived, and one of the most common arguments Jews have made against Christianity is that there's no visual evidence of that.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Why? I would like to hear more about your point of view. I wouldn't call myself "woke" as it were but I certainly lean toward "Progressive" on most issues. I am still conservative enough to believe that as individuals, it is more fruitful (spiritually and secularly) to follow traditional values (Judeao-Christion for example). I am progressive enough to believe that our secular laws need not be founded on Judeao-Christian principles but be founded in what I've heard described as "natural law."

Natural law can at times conflict with Judeao-Christian law in that we strive for freedom and equality which can allow for people to legally make choices for themselves to be for example homosexual, fornication, and other sins that are immoral but not illegal.

I kind of got off track but I wanted to return to the question of what "woke" means to you. Is it a complete rejection of conservative values? Is it an adoption of directly sinful behavior, or is it more of an issue of secular versus spiritual values? I'm thinking of something like "Humanism" as I state this who's philosophy adheres to many Christian values in terms of the golden rule and helping our neighbor etc. However what Humanism is missing is God, though much of the philosophy is the same.

My last question is do you see "woke" as a secular governmental philosophy or a religious or anti-religious philosophy?

A lot of big questions so I understand if you want to tackle my questions one at a time instead of trying to answer all of my weird questions all at once. My goal is to really suss out what aspects of "woke" culture are religious or secular and what aspects of "conservatism" are religious or secular.

My definition is a society where individual rights and freedoms are more important that what we used to call "the greater good"; this individualized social justice results in rights being suppressed or removed in order to ensure your personal rights take priority. Narcissism is the preferred norm rather than everyone working for a common goal. Selfish Humanism.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There was this one where a virgin conceived, and one of the most common arguments Jews have made against Christianity is that there's no visual evidence of that.

I have a question that might fit here. Does anyone know of any Eucharistic miracles outside of Orthodoxy or Catholicism? A Pentecostal miracle associated with communion, or a Methodist one, or whatever?

 

[The Liturgist]

I have a question that might fit here. Does anyone know of any Eucharistic miracles outside of Orthodoxy or Catholicism? A Pentecostal miracle associated with communion, or a Methodist one, or whatever?

I recall hearing of some in Anglicanism and in Lutheranism. Our friend @RileyG posted threads asking about this by the way.

I would also be very surprised if the Assyrian Church of the East did not have a history of some Eucharistic miracles. Unfortunately there aren’t any here for us to ask.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way I myself have experienced miracles connected with the Eucharist but I refuse to discuss the circumstances; all I can say is that I have extreme confidence in the validity of the Eucharist in certain churches, and grave doubts about its validity in one diocese of another, but in that specific case I haven’t been able to work out a coherent explanation that avoids the heresy of Donatism.

I also have a relative who experienced a miraculous reduction in the severity of an illness following Holy Unction by a Coptic monk.

 

[RileyG]

I recall hearing of some in Anglicanism and in Lutheranism. Our friend @RileyG posted threads asking about this by the way.

I would also be very surprised if the Assyrian Church of the East did not have a history of some Eucharistic miracles. Unfortunately there aren’t any here for us to ask.

The Assyrian Church of the East is very small in number. I don’t think there are many in the United States.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There's more than one way for me to reply.
1) why do you believe in God?
2) because it is the truth.

Yes, it really is Christ's body and it really is Christ's blood. That is why it is called the real presence.

I don’t know why people extrapolate this metaphor out of proportion. I mean I know it’s derived from St Ignatius’ statement in his epistle to the Smyrnaeans. I suppose if St Ignatius had written that Jesus is actually a literal door or a literal gate or a literal lamb or a literal vine or a literal well we would be having this same discussion about all of these things.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I mean I know it’s derived from St Ignatius’ statement in his epistle to the Smyrnaeans. I suppose if St Ignatius had written that Jesus is actually a literal door or a literal gate or a literal lamb or a literal vine or a literal well we would be having this same discussion about all of these things.

Ah, but he didn't.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I recall hearing of some in Anglicanism and in Lutheranism.

That's what I'm curious about.

Our friend @RileyG posted threads asking about this by the way.

But didn't get a whole lot of response as I recall.

I would also be very surprised if the Assyrian Church of the East did not have a history of some Eucharistic miracles. Unfortunately there aren’t any here for us to ask.

I would not be terribly surprised about that. What I'm more curious about is the Protestant response. Do they just not expect it so they can't see it OR is it just rare OR does it just not happen at all. I would like to know of the instances in Lutheran or Anglican experience too.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ah, but he didn't.

Yeah we’ll just because someone in the early church wrote something doesn’t make it true.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Assyrian Church of the East is very small in number. I don’t think there are many in the United States.

Actually, the US is home to the largest population of Assyrian expatriates, although our immigration policies are resulting in rapid growth of the communities in Europe and Australia. However, it should be noted that in Chicagoland and in California and Detroit, the Assyrian population is massive, and indeed the Catholicos was based in Chicago from 1920 until the repose of Mar Dinkha IV; the current Catholicos, Mar Awa Royel, who I have met in person when he was Bishop of California, moved the Patriarchate back to Iraq. The Ancient Church of the East its Patriarchate in Iraq, or rather returned it there, since the Ancient Church of the East broke away from the Assyrian Church of the East after an Indian bishop discovered, reading the canons of the church, that the hereditary Patriarchy was uncanonical, and shortly thereafter, the last hereditary patriarch, Mar Shimun XXIII, controversially changed the calendar to the Gregorian, so the Ancient Church of the East was initially like the Assyrian equivalent of an Old Calendarist jurisdiction.

In total I think they have about 2 million members in the Assyrian Church of the East and 150,000 in the Ancient Church of the East, and of these, 700,000 speak a dialect of Eastern Neo-Aramaic as their primary vernacular language, making this the largest surviving Aramaic speaking community in the world. Indeed a major difference between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church is that the Assyrian tribe known as the Qaldanaye (I don’t think I am spelling that correctly) mostly stopped speaking an Aramaic dialect in the vernacular and instead mainly spoke Arabic; this also happened to most, but not all, of the Syriac Orthodox. However, the historically Syriac church with the least amount of Syriac or Aramaic fluency seems to be the Maronite Catholic Church, although their liturgical books retain a mostly West Syriac vocabulary, for example, they have the Husoyeh as a major type of prayer, spelt “Hoosoyo”

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don’t know why people extrapolate this metaphor out of proportion. I mean I know it’s derived from St Ignatius’ statement in his epistle to the Smyrnaeans. I suppose if St Ignatius had written that Jesus is actually a literal door or a literal gate or a literal lamb or a literal vine or a literal well we would be having this same discussion about all of these things.

In heaven Christ is the door, and the gate, and the lamb, and the vine, and every other thing he said he is. But earthly thought cannot accept spiritual things.

 

[RileyG]

Actually, the US is home to the largest population of Assyrian expatriates, although our immigration policies are resulting in rapid growth of the communities in Europe and Australia. However, it should be noted that in Chicagoland and in California and Detroit, the Assyrian population is massive, and indeed the Catholicos was based in Chicago from 1920 until the repose of Mar Dinkha IV; the current Catholicos, Mar Awa Royel, who I have met in person when he was Bishop of California, moved the Patriarchate back to Iraq. The Ancient Church of the East its Patriarchate in Iraq, or rather returned it there, since the Ancient Church of the East broke away from the Assyrian Church of the East after an Indian bishop discovered, reading the canons of the church, that the hereditary Patriarchy was uncanonical, and shortly thereafter, the last hereditary patriarch, Mar Shimun XXIII, controversially changed the calendar to the Gregorian, so the Ancient Church of the East was initially like the Assyrian equivalent of an Old Calendarist jurisdiction.

In total I think they have about 2 million members in the Assyrian Church of the East and 150,000 in the Ancient Church of the East, and of these, 700,000 speak a dialect of Eastern Neo-Aramaic as their primary vernacular language, making this the largest surviving Aramaic speaking community in the world. Indeed a major difference between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church is that the Assyrian tribe known as the Qaldanaye (I don’t think I am spelling that correctly) mostly stopped speaking an Aramaic dialect in the vernacular and instead mainly spoke Arabic; this also happened to most, but not all, of the Syriac Orthodox. However, the historically Syriac church with the least amount of Syriac or Aramaic fluency seems to be the Maronite Catholic Church, although their liturgical books retain a mostly West Syriac vocabulary, for example, they have the Husoyeh as a major type of prayer, spelt “Hoosoyo”

Thanks for the info! I don’t know of any near me, though. They aren’t very common in my part of the woods.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thanks for the info! I don’t know of any near me, though. They aren’t very common in my part of the woods.

Indeed you would need to drive or fly to Illinois! I can’t recall if either the California Zephyr or the Southwest Chief pass through Nebraska; I know the old Union Pacific trains such as the City of Denver, City of San Francisco, City of Los Angeles and obviously the City of Omaha did, on their way to Chicago (on the other hand I think the City of St. Louis, which ran from Los Angeles to St. Louis with connections to Washington DC, took a diverging route on a partner railroad).