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Why do you always feel the need to be antagonistic? Zoidar and I have had no issues in discussing this topic. Just wondering. And letting you know that if you can’t be nice, I won’t respond.
Your opening post asserts the need for regeneration before saving faith. I have the right to disagree with your reasoning and to show how your assertion is refuted from scripture. You don't have to respond to my posts, but don't say you addressed my arguments when all you do is rehash your original arguments. Speaking of antagonistic, issuing a dismissive "all that is wrong" without addressing any of my specifics is just that.
I am challenging your assertion far more strongly.
It may be better that way as I haven't received a response on this thread that demonstrates that you are listening to me.
I don't say God will be pleased with him, but God would be pleased with his way of acting. We have also concluded the Bible never specifically state God is only pleased by acts done for His glory. When you ask God for forgiveness, do you do it to glorify God? If it's done with sincerity it's certainly an act pleasing to God.
So God wouldn’t be pleased with him, but would be pleased with his actions? I’m not sure what that means.
Neither does it specifically define the Trinity.
I agree. And that’s done in the Spirit because if it’s done in the flesh, it’s not pleasing to God.
The point of the story was to show the Jews who their neighbors truly were.
Even God may be pleased by a loving or kind act of an unbeliever, God is never pleased with the person until he has a completely changed life. One pleasing act does not make God pleased with him.
They are two different categories. The Trinity is a well established doctrine about God's nature held by practically all churches and "We need to do it to God's glory to please Him" is a thelogical and philosophical standpoint without consensus among Christians.
My point was since you don't ask God for forgiveness for His glory's sake, and it's a pleasing act to Him, it shows an act can please God even without you doing it to glorify Him.
Jesus is both answering the question who our neigbor is and how we can inherit eternal life. Jesus teaches us by this story what it means to keep the command to "love your neighbor".
Do you think God is pleased with something that a sinful person who hates Him (or denies His existence) takes partial credit for?
I never said they were the same category. My comment was your dismissal of the claim that God is only pleased by acts done for His glory. You dismissed it because it’s not specifically stated. By that reasoning, we should dismiss the Trinity because that doctrine isn’t specifically stated.
I’ll grant that. But based on the plethora of texts I’ve provided, I will amend my position and say that God is glorified when acts are done for His sake, either consciously by us, or because the Spirit is working through us without our understanding.
Is it you position that Christ is teaching salvation through good works?
Have you seen Schindler's List? I believe what Schindler did was a pleasing act to God. To say all unbelievers hate God or deny His existence is an exaggeration, at least from how I see it, and it's not the full truth. There is however an aversion or inclination in all unbelievers to resist God. This resistance has to be broken down for the unbeliever to embrace Christ and truth.
The reason we hold the doctrine of the Trinity so strongly is because of Church history. We can not say the same with the doctrine of "what pleases God". You can still affirm it. It's just, I don't find it very grounded either in history or Scripture.
Ok! Well, I will agree with that. Still I think it's not only through the Spirit someone can do a pleasing act to God.
Jesus is teaching we are saved by living faith, faith that is expressed through love for God and our neighbor and that means following his commands. I believe Jesus showed the lawyer that he needed a new heart. The lawyer realized he didn't have it in him to live as Jesus prescribed and could have been convicted of his sinfulness. However, like many, he might have hardened his heart and told himself it was an impossible task for him to do, settling with that rather than taking Jesus' teaching to heart and realizing the need for a new life.
Exaggeration? I encourage you to re-read Romans 1 and Romans 3 again. I’m just agreeing with what Paul says.
You are countering an argument I’m not making. I’m not “proving” my stance. I’m saying, once again, that I cannot prove this teaching in the way you asked any more than I can prove the Trinity in that way. There’s nothing specific that spells out the Trinity. We get to it through study of what’s written. The same goes for my view.
Then you think that God is pleased by something less than holy. I have an entire Old Testament that would say otherwise.
Then I don’t see how this is relevant to our discussion.
You are agreeing with your interpretation of Romans. If we didn't have Romans, what passages would you use to build your case that all unbelievers hate God?
No, we don't get the doctrine of the Trinity solely from studying Scripture. If we only had Scripture we might at worst (I say at worst because I believe there is a far better Biblical case for the Trinity) be equally uncertain of the doctrine of the Trinity. Thankfully, we also have Church history to back up the teaching of the Trinity.
When it comes to God being pleased with an action, I will say "yes", you don't need to be holy to perform it. Would you quote a passage from the OT that says you need to be holy to perform an act pleasing to God?
It's a good point I will try to answer. Even the lawyer couldn't (in reality didn't want to) keep this command, there are other unbelievers that could and would. I can not prove the good samaritan was an unbeliever, but it's not the important part of the story. The story of the good samaritan gives all people, believers and unbelievers alike, the general instruction how we ought to live. It's a matter of choice to keep it and if we do I see that act as pleasing to God. But no one is able to keep all the commands perfectly, certainly not unbelievers who lacks the indwelling of the Spirit, who most of the time aren't even interested in trying (and how would they fulfill the command to love God?) and since we all need forgiveness, unbelievers are automatically disqualified.
To the choirmaster. Of David.
It all derives from scripture.
No. And I can’t quote a passage from anywhere in scripture that proves God is Triune.
You can’t prove anything about the Good Samaritan because he’s fiction.It's a good point I will try to answer. Even the lawyer couldn't (in reality didn't want to) keep this command, there are other unbelievers that could and would. I can not prove the good samaritan was an unbeliever, but it's not the important part of the story. The story of the good samaritan gives all people, believers and unbelievers alike, the general instruction how we ought to live. It's a matter of choice to keep it and if we do I see that act as pleasing to God. But no one is able to keep all the commands perfectly, certainly not unbelievers who lacks the indwelling of the Spirit, who most of the time aren't even interested in trying (and how would they fulfill the command to love God?) and since we all need forgiveness, unbelievers are automatically disqualified.
When Paul was born again he got the power by the Spirit to overcome sin, which was an impossible task in the flesh. I cannot say what would happen if an unbeliever set his heart to follow all the commands of Jesus, maybe it would lead him to faith. Actually I've heard a testimony from a guy who came to faith through giving what he had to the poor.
Sorry for long posts! I can't stop writing, that's all.
Nothing from the NT except Romans?
It's hard to tell about the Trinity, the doctrine might have developed parallelly to oral tradition.
But you said practically the whole OT backs up your view. If you meant something else, feel free to share. One thing I see throughout Scripture is we need to be genuine, sincere.
I think Jesus' parables give us valid indications.
Do you believe God is love? I ask because it’s only mentioned twice, and by the same author.
You are still missing the point. You keep asking for verses or passages that specifically state what I’m asserting. I’m saying that it doesn’t specifically have to say it in a passage for it to be true. We can derive truths from what’s in scripture.
If that’s the case, then foreign idols would not be a problem as long as one was genuine and sincere.
I did not mean it needed to be expressed literally, but be implied. We have quite a few verses implying God is love, do we have more books than Romans in the NT that imply unbelievers hate God? And concerning Romans, it does not explictly state unbelievers hate God, so that was never my point. If we don't find teaching of unbelievers hating God elsewhere in the NT, our understanding of Romans might be wrong. That's what I have tried to say.
Of course not! When we turn to God we need to be sincere, both with failures and with wishes and desires. We need to lay down all our facedes and be completely vulnerable.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Do you believe that God is Spirit? I ask because it’s only mentioned once in the NT. Using your reasoning, we might be wrong about that.
Sure. You can be sincere and love the Lord. And also be sincere in worshipping other idols. God is just one of many. That should be good, right?
Do you think this is true of all unbelievers?
The Bible literally says God is Spirit. I don't think we can understand it in another way, so there is no need for supporting verses. So multiple passages are only needed when there is unclarity.
Yes. I believe Paul. And I think the flood gives evidence of this as well.
Do you get the impression that Paul is also saying that most people aren’t really that bad?
Yes they do. That’s what being an unbeliever means.
Okay.
So on that, you don’t need supporting verses. But when Paul spends chapters on the sinfulness of man, and that they can’t please God, you need supporting verse?
The people in the time of Noah were like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah exceedingly wicked, not like most societies today.
Paul is saying all men are sinners, that is that bad.
If all unbelievers would stubbornly supress the truth no one would become a believer. The reason unbelievers become believers is because they stop supressing the truth.
Paul does not literally say unbelievers can't do acts pleasing to God. That's the difference. Also most of what you have quoted from Paul is not his own descriptions, but quotations from the OT he uses to prove a point.
They were marrying and being given in marriage. Thats normalcy, too. Plus, there were infants and toddlers.
He’s saying more than that. He’s telling us how wicked we are. In Ephesians, he tells us that we are just as the children of wrath. Like those in the flood.
No, it’s because they are born again.
Paul never literally says there’s a Trinity. But he does literally say that those in the flesh can’t please God. And when Paul literally says that unbelievers suppress the knowledge of God, you don't seem to really believe him.
I would say just as deserving of wrath as those in the flood.
I would say they need to stop suppressing the truth (which happens through conviction) to be born again. You don't stop suppressing the truth on your own from my understanding, but through the intervention of the Holy Spirit. However being convicted is not the same as being born again, since you have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Conviction means you have understood and accepted your situation, but you have not yet done anything about it. It's when you act on the conviction (repent) you receive the Holy Spirit.
He says those in the flesh can't please God, true! He does not say unbelievers supress the truth. He says God's wrath is upon all men who suppress the truth, because God has given them all they need to know about Him.
