Isaiah 65:17-19 relates to the eternal state not some supposed future millennium

[sovereigngrace]

Ezekiel 39


Ezekiel 39 describes Armageddon, and the supper of the Great God from Revelation 19, and how God's name will not be profaned anymore (if you believe that Gog/Magog is a separate conflict in which God says His name will no longer be profaned and then Antichrist after who profanes God's name...)
it also describes years of cleanup after.

Where is Jesus' return in Ezekiel 39? Nowhere! You force it in there to support your faulty teaching. That sums up your position. You have to manipulate the text to prove what you have been taught. That is called adding on to Scripture. The Bible forbids that.

 

[Jamdoc]

You are manipulating Scripture to support your beliefs. John is using the ancient literal detail of Ezekiel 39 as symbolism to impress end-time truth, as in 500 Old Testament references to literal historic events that he spiritualizes.

Oh, so this was a historical event
when?
and why has God claimed His name will not be profaned anymore when it is profaned daily?

Go ahead, name your historical event where Israel returned from a long period of captivity, got invaded by Persia, Turkey, Libya, and Ethiopia all at the same time, and God decimated the forces in such a way that every heathen knew God and His name would be profaned no more?

 

[Jamdoc]

Where is Jesus' return in Ezekiel 39? Nowhere! You force it in there to support your faulty teaching. That sums up your position. You have to manipulate the text to prove what you have been taught. That is called adding on to Scripture. The Bible forbids that.

This is Old Testament.
Old Testament references to Jesus' second coming always involve GOD coming from heaven and GOD doing things on Earth in person.

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

This should sound familiar

Matthew 24

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Zechariah 9:14-16 is describing the second coming of Jesus, but it is the Lord God in Zechariah 9, Jesus equates the Lord God to Himself and His coming in Matthew 24. But it is the same reference.

ANY time you see the Day of the Lord referred to in the Old Testament, it is about the second coming of Jesus.
Note that in Zechariah 9 the people are lifted above the land and displayed like stones in a crown, or like an ensign (a banner).
That's the catching up, the rapture, the gathering of the elect.

In essence, Jesus goes back to Old Testament prophetic passages and says "you know that passage about God coming from heaven and destroying all the wicked? That's me."

They are not separate events.
It was not historical.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Oh, so this was a historical event
when?
and why has God claimed His name will not be profaned anymore when it is profaned daily?

Go ahead, name your historical event where Israel returned from a long period of captivity, got invaded by Persia, Turkey, Libya, and Ethiopia all at the same time, and God decimated the forces in such a way that every heathen knew God and His name would be profaned no more?

This happened back in Ezekiel's day.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

In short, I believe this battle has been fulfilled.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is Old Testament.
Old Testament references to Jesus' second coming always involve GOD coming from heaven and GOD doing things on Earth in person.

Zechariah 9


This should sound familiar

Matthew 24


Zechariah 9:14-16 is describing the second coming of Jesus, but it is the Lord God in Zechariah 9, Jesus equates the Lord God to Himself and His coming in Matthew 24. But it is the same reference.

ANY time you see the Day of the Lord referred to in the Old Testament, it is about the second coming of Jesus.
Note that in Zechariah 9 the people are lifted above the land and displayed like stones in a crown, or like an ensign (a banner).
That's the catching up, the rapture, the gathering of the elect.

In essence, Jesus goes back to Old Testament prophetic passages and says "you know that passage about God coming from heaven and destroying all the wicked? That's me."

They are not separate events.
It was not historical.

The context is the First Advent and the advance of the Gospel to the nations.

Zechariah 9:9-10 predicted: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass … and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.”

The prophets recognised that this “peace” was not simply an ethnic thing pertaining exclusively to natural Israel but was a spiritual thing that would affect all nations. This is what Isaiah 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3 is speaking of. We learn: “the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” What is more we don’t need to speculate about the time-period in view, the text confirms: “in the last days it shall come to pass.”

This passage vividly shows salvation going out to the nations of the world after the cross. It shows the establishment of the kingdom of God (described here as “the mountain of the Lord's house”), above all other kingdoms of the earth (described here as mountains) and smaller ethnic groups (described here as hills).

 

[Jamdoc]

This happened back in Ezekiel's day.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).

In short, I believe this battle has been fulfilled.

Boy your interpretation of God comes up really short if He declares that His name will not be profaned anymore after that historic event and it's profaned every single day.

Both God, and Jesus, are commonly used as profanity every single day.

also I asked for a specific battle or war.
You can't come up with one.

DId history literally forget such a profound supernatural victory?

 

[Jamdoc]

The context is the First Advent and the advance of the Gospel to the nations.

Zechariah 9:9-10 predicted: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass … and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.”

The prophets recognised that this “peace” was not simply an ethnic thing pertaining exclusively to natural Israel but was a spiritual thing that would affect all nations. This is what Isaiah 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3 is speaking of. We learn: “the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” What is more we don’t need to speculate about the time-period in view, the text confirms: “in the last days it shall come to pass.”

This passage vividly shows salvation going out to the nations of the world after the cross. It shows the establishment of the kingdom of God (described here as “the mountain of the Lord's house”), above all other kingdoms of the earth (described here as mountains) and smaller ethnic groups (described here as hills).

and yet the language of the passage I referred to, matches the language Jesus used describing his second coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Boy your interpretation of God comes up really short if He declares that His name will not be profaned anymore after that historic event and it's profaned every single day.

Both God, and Jesus, are commonly used as profanity every single day.

also I asked for a specific battle or war.
You can't come up with one.

DId history literally forget such a profound supernatural victory?

The battle was mentioned by the prophet! Read it. Is that not enough for you?

 

[sovereigngrace]

and yet the language of the passage I referred to, matches the language Jesus used describing his second coming.

Yes, and is used continually in the OT and the NT when describing God's interventions in the affairs of man.

 

[Jamdoc]

The battle was mentioned by the prophet! Read it. Is that not enough for you?

a prophet telling of the future.
and that's my point.
The prophet doesn't prophecy contemporary events or historical events, he prophecies future events.
That future event could have happened any time after it was first prophecied, sure
but it is also mentioned in the last book of the bible.
written after 70AD.

 

[sovereigngrace]

a prophet telling of the future.
and that's my point.
The prophet doesn't prophecy contemporary events or historical events, he prophecies future events.
That future event could have happened any time after it was first prophecied, sure
but it is also mentioned in the last book of the bible.
written after 70AD.

No. John symbolizes OT events, names, entities, places and ordinances to impress NT spiritual truths.

 

[Jamdoc]

No. John symbolizes OT events, names, entities, places and ordinances to impress NT spiritual truths.

John is referencing OT prophecy, and parables of Jesus (like the wheat and the tares) that has not happened yet, and clarifying that it will happen around the time that Jesus returns.
Revelation is a clearing house of OT Prophecy references.

 

[Timtofly]

Peter is directly responding to the wicked in this narrative. That is the context here. He is directly responding to the derision of "the last days scoffers." His whole writing here is a solemn warning to them of the folly of their mocking. Like Christ and the other New Testament writers, Peter points these fools to Noah day where God rescued His people in total and suddenly before He destroyed the wicked in total and suddenly.

What is the derision of the wicked? This: "Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Peter responds directly: "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He first addresses the apparent delay by telling them that time is nothing with God - "be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." He then reminds them that "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He is indeed faithful. He keeps His Word.

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.” God will assuredly keep His Word

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,"

So the wicked are the beloved?

 

[sovereigngrace]

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,"

So the wicked are the beloved?

No, He is reminding His people of the folly of the wicked’s rantings.

 

[Timtofly]

No, He is reminding His people of the folly of the wicked’s rantings.

No, Peter is telling the redeemed that the Day of the Lord is a thousand years. The folly is to make no distinction of time, and continue to think that God's longsuffering will never come to an end.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No, Peter is telling the redeemed that the Day of the Lord is a thousand years. The folly is to make no distinction of time, and continue to think that God's longsuffering will never come to an end.

Where does he say that? Nowhere! You foist that upon the text to support your teaching.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does he say that? Nowhere! You foist that upon the text to support your teaching.

Just going by your interpretation that is foisted on the text. You said Peter was explaining to the scoffers about time. Now you cannot even figure out how that fits into the narrative?

 

[sovereigngrace]

John is referencing OT prophecy, and parables of Jesus (like the wheat and the tares) that has not happened yet, and clarifying that it will happen around the time that Jesus returns.
Revelation is a clearing house of OT Prophecy references.

I believe John symbolizes Old Testament events, names, entities, places and ordinances to impress New Testament spiritual truths.

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe John symbolizes Old Testament events, names, entities, places and ordinances to impress New Testament spiritual truths.

Show me the historical events where those prophecies were fulfilled.
I can guarantee you there have been no fulfillments of anything where God came down to Earth and waged war.

This idea that everything in the Old Testament was fulfilled prior to Jesus' birth is baby Christian territory, that's what you believe when you haven't read the old testament yourself and are just parroting what a dispensationalist pastor has taught you. I mean a friend of mine believes that, he hasn't read the old testament for himself, only selected passages that are read during church services and often used out of context to support a teaching that has nothing to do with the passage read.
but hey! the Old Testament is for "Israel" and not for "The Church" only the writings of Paul are for "the Church"
I know you agree this is silly but why do you still adhere to one of its pillars, that the Old Testament is all past events?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Show me the historical events where those prophecies were fulfilled.
I can guarantee you there have been no fulfillments of anything where God came down to Earth and waged war.

This idea that everything in the Old Testament was fulfilled prior to Jesus' birth is baby Christian territory, that's what you believe when you haven't read the old testament yourself and are just parroting what a dispensationalist pastor has taught you. I mean a friend of mine believes that, he hasn't read the old testament for himself, only selected passages that are read during church services and often used out of context to support a teaching that has nothing to do with the passage read.
but hey! the Old Testament is for "Israel" and not for "The Church" only the writings of Paul are for "the Church"
I know you agree this is silly but why do you still adhere to one of its pillars, that the Old Testament is all past events?

Please stop your name-calling and belittling. It does nothing to advance your argument. It actually diminishes it.

It is estimated that Revelation contains over 500 references to Old Testament events and stories, yet NOT one single direct quote. It is therefore fair to say, the book of Revelation is indecipherable unless one has a reasonable grasp of the Old Testament. After all, most of the symbolism is gleaned from there. It is also necessary to understand the way numbers are used in Scripture. After all, numbers in Scripture are representative of spiritual truths and realities. Most are familiar with consistent and meaningful usage of numbers like 3, 5, 7, 10, 12 and 1000 in the Bible.

Dr. James Fleming further explains: “Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah are Old Testament apocalyptic books that use symbolic language for “that day.” These three books influenced the Apocalypse … Of the four hundred and some verses in the book of Revelation, over two hundred are paraphrases of Old Testament verses.”

Whilst the Old Testament mentions end-times and the second coming; it is often written in veiled and obscure detail, mixed and interspersed with ancient events and other historical detail. It is also presented in types and shadows.

Reapplying these Old Testament types and shadows to the New Testament Church age is often the great difficulty that faces most sincere students of this prophetic book. The prophecy is told and understood through the use of symbols that had common meanings among 1st century Jews.

John uses a lot of literal OT names, events, locations to depict NT spiritual truths. Revelation is saturated in symbolic language. The symbols in the apocalypse serve as effective images and tools that are employed by the Holy Spirit to represent spiritual realities and heavenly truths. Revelation is a spiritual lesson using physical imagery to represent greater spiritual realities and heavenly truths. This includes actual spiritual events.

Mal Couch contends: “Revelation follows: “a systematic, hermeneutical approach . . . Signs, symbols, and figures of speech have literal concepts behind them. Because Revelation is very symbolic (though not totally), there are still literal events embedded behind the figure” (Introductory Thoughts on Allegorical Interpretation and the Book of Revelation - Part II).

The seven last plagues bear a striking similarity in places to the ones that fell upon Egypt. There is hardly any doubt that these Old Testament plagues are used as illustrations to represent the ongoing power of God.

Please remember, the children of Israel were not subject to these awful plagues but were actually protected in the midst of them.

One thing you will notice in scripture that when God pours out his wrath, he either protects people in the midst of it or he rescues them out of it.

God always preserves His people in times of hardship. I believe these plagues (lent from Israel's experience in Egypt when God poured out literal plagues in His wrath on the enemy) are used to impress the truth and reality of God's preservation for us today. Yes, God has and does pour out literal plagues, but spiritually the wicked are under constant and ongoing wrath.

But many Old Testament events, locations or realities are used to depict the invisible warfare between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness in the invisible realm.