The mind set on the flesh

[zoidar]

Not really. There are many commands to repent in the OT.

The question is, are those commands part of the Mosaic Law?

Do you?

Yes, Mark 1:15 is under the OC.

Yes, because your theology allows for God-haters to somehow want to please God.

Nope! A convicted person are no longer hating God, while still being in the flesh.

 

[Hammster]

The question is, are those commands part of the Mosaic Law?

I don’t see the Mosaic law being mentioned exclusively.

Yes, Mark 1:15 is under the OC.

Nope! A convicted person are no longer hating God, while still being in the flesh.

So what changed in the “convicted” person’s heart?

 

[zoidar]

So what changed in the “convicted” person’s heart?

From being reluctant to believe, the convicted person becomes willing to believe. It comes from understanding you are a sinner and in need of Christ. The reason the sinner is reluctant to believe is because he doesn't think it's true. This could be said as hating God. As soon as the sinner is convicted of truth his mind change, he gets afraid or troubled instead of hateful. He understands he is under judgment, but is still in flesh. And as the convicted person confesses Christ as savior his heart change (this is regeneration, salvation, he is no longer in flesh) and he receives the Holy Spirit and starts to love Christ.

 

[Hammster]

I meant the Laws given in the OT (not those by Jesus).

And this is based on what?

 

[Hammster]

From being reluctant to believe, the convicted person becomes willing to believe. It comes from understanding you are a sinner and in need of Christ. The reason the sinner is reluctant to believe is because he doesn't think it's true. This could be said as hating God. As soon as the sinner is convicted of truth his mind change, he gets afraid or troubled instead of hateful. He understands he is under judgment. And as the convicted person confesses Christ as savior his heart change (this is regeneration, salvation, he is no longer in flesh) and he receives the Holy Spirit and starts to love Christ.

Why would a God hater become willing to believe? Why would they suddenly believe the truth?

 

[zoidar]

And this is based on what?

I've lost the thread. What are you asking?

Even if it's a Law to repent, it's not what Paul means by God's Law in Rom 8:5-8. I'll get to that tomorrow.

 

[zoidar]

Why would a God hater become willing to believe? Why would they suddenly believe the truth?

Because the Holy Spirit convicts them.

 

[Hammster]

I've lost the thread. What are you asking?

Even if it's a Law to repent, it's not what Paul means by God's Law in Rom 8:5-8. I'll get to that tomorrow.

I’m thinking it’s the law from God, which would be His commandments.

 

[Hammster]

Because the Holy Spirit convicts them.

What does that even mean?

 

[zoidar]

What does that even mean?

You realize you are a sinner in need of salvation. I don't know how else to describe it. It's not by your willpower, but by the influence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

You realize you are a sinner in need of salvation. I don't know how else to describe it. It's not by your willpower, but by the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Where are you finding this in scripture? In my version, being convicted is not a good thing.

 

[zoidar]

Where are you finding this in scripture? In my version, being convicted is not a good thing.

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
— Acts 2:37-38

I believe being pierced to the heart refers to conviction.

I don't know if I can find any passage with the full order of description. I do of course know you don't believe the Holy Spirit is the gift, and I agree it might be the gift by the Holy Spirit it refers to (thank you for pointing that out). But conviction comes first, then repentance, then forgiveness and salvation.

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
— 2 Corinthians 7:10

Sorrow according to God's will can be seen as conviction. You are sorrowful because you realize you are under judgment. Even the passage is about believers I think this is a general statement not only for believers, that the conviction of God produces repentance to salvation.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
— John 16:7-8

Here we see conviction is by the Holy Spirit, even it does not mention conviction can lead to repentance.

The reason I know this for sure is because it happened to me. I got convicted and realized I was under judgment. I can't tell you for sure it was by the Holy Spirit, but how else could it have happened? I repented and then I received the new heart and a love for Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
— Acts 2:37-38

Being pierced to the heart refers to conviction.

And how do you that it isn’t regeneration?

I don't know if I can find any other passage with the full order of description.

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
— 2 Corinthians 7:10

Sorrow according to God's will can be seen as conviction. Even the passage is about believers I think this is a general statement. The conviction of God produces repentance to salvation.

Well, it can’t be what you think because that sorrow has a specific result. It leads to salvation.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
— John 16:7-8

Here we see conviction is by the Holy Spirit, even it does not say conviction leads to repentance.

That’s actual conviction. Like in court.

The reason I know this for sure is because it happened to me. I got convicted. I can't tell you for sure it was by the Holy Spirit, but how else could it have happened? I repented and then I received the new heart.

How do you know that this didn’t happen because you had a new heart?

 

[zoidar]

Where are you finding this in scripture? In my version, being convicted is not a good thing.

Just have to add this also:

Seek the Lord while He may be found;
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the Lord,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
— Isaiah 55:6-7

Here we see the order of first forsaking our evil way, call upon the Lord and God will pardon (and save). Somehow the wicked must first realize his way is wrong, and that is by conviction. How else?

 

[Hammster]

Just have to add this also:

Seek the Lord while He may be found;
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the Lord,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
— Isaiah 55:6-7

Here we see the order of first forsaking our evil way, call upon the Lord and God will pardon (and save). Somehow the wicked must first realize his way is wrong, and that is by conviction. How else?

Did you notice the word “return”?

 

[zoidar]

It will be a somewhat long response. Bear with me.

And how do you that it isn’t regeneration?

We see a similar idea in Ac 16. When the jailer understands what has happened he is convicted and says: “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Much in the same way the people respond in Ac 2:37 upon their conviction: “Brethren, what shall we do?" (Likely to be saved). The response is the same, the shock of being in the wrong standing with God. The answer in Ac 2 is repent and be baptized, and the answer in Ac 16 is believe in the Lord Jesus, then get baptized. It's also noticeable how the jailor repented after conviction: He let them go and washed their wounds. And no, regeneration did not happen at conviction, because he was not yet saved.

When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!” And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
— Acts 16:27-33

Well, it can’t be what you think because that sorrow has a specific result. It leads to salvation.

That is what conviction does, leads to salvation. Not directly but through repentance, like the verse says.

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God (conviction) produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation ...
— 2 Corinthians 7:10

That’s actual conviction. Like in court.

Why would it be like a court? Is it legal talk Jesus shares with his apostles? Isn't it more likely about the spiritual and moral truth? He will convict the world of unbelievers to the truth about:

- Sin and it's consequences for not believing
- Righteousness being through Jesus, since he is the Messiah going to the Father
- Judgment coming, like the ruler of this world was judged.

And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
— John 16:8-11

How do you know that this didn’t happen because you had a new heart?

Because I experienced the very second my heart changed.

Did you notice the word “return”?

It does not necessarily mean the wicked, unrighteous person had a relationship with God before. It may be there has been generations of separation from God, which the wicked person is part of. Also returning to God from sinful life, does not need to refer to there once was a righteous life. It might be pointing to we all need to return from sin to God, since all are sinners from the beginning, all have strayed. We see this concept clear in the NT.

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
— 1 Peter 2:21-25

Even if the person once had a relationship with God it's still the same order for anyone who is lost: conviction, repentance, forgiveness/salvation.

 

[Hammster]

It will be a somewhat long response. Bear with me.

We see a similar idea in Ac 16. When the jailer understands what has happened he is convicted and says: “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Much in the same way the people respond in Ac 2:37 upon their conviction: “Brethren, what shall we do?" (Likely to be saved). The response is the same, the shock of being in the wrong standing with God. The answer in Ac 2 is repent and be baptized, and the answer in Ac 16 is believe in the Lord Jesus, then get baptized. It's also noticeable how the jailor repented after conviction: He let them go and washed their wounds. And no, regeneration did not happen at conviction, because he was not yet saved.

How do you know he wasn’t regenerate? I don’t see where it says.

When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!” And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
— Acts 16:27-33


That is what conviction does, leads to salvation. Not directly but through repentance, like the verse says.

Right. It leads ti salvation. So either you are a universalist, or you don’t believe that everyone receives this conviction.

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God (conviction) produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation ...
— 2 Corinthians 7:10

Why would it be like a court? Is it legal talk Jesus shares with his apostles? Isn't it more likely about the spiritual and moral truth? He will convict the world of unbelievers to the truth about:

- Sin and it's consequences for not believing
- Righteousness being through Jesus, since he is the Messiah going to the Father
- Judgment coming, like the ruler of this world was judged.

And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
— John 16:8-11

It’s legal because that’s what the word means. That’s how the original audience would have understood it, not in the sense of modern evangelicalism.

Because I experienced the very second my heart changed.

But you said you weren’t even sure it was the Spirit.

It does not necessarily mean the wicked, unrighteous person had a relationship with God before. It may be there has been generations of separation from God, which the wicked person is part of.

So is it a group, or an individual? It can’t be both.

Also returning to God from sinful life, does not need to refer to there once was a righteous life. It might be pointing to we all need to return from sin to God, since all are sinners from the beginning, all have strayed. We see this concept clear in the NT.

That is definitely not the plain reading of the text.

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
— 1 Peter 2:21-25

The “you” here is the elect, the sheep.

Even if the person once had a relationship with God it's still the same order for anyone who is lost: conviction, repentance, forgiveness/salvation.

Again, you are using conviction in a non-biblical sense.

 

[zoidar]

How do you know he wasn’t regenerate? I don’t see where it says.

The Jailor asked what to do to be saved. A person saved and regenerated will not likely ask what to do to be saved

Right. It leads ti salvation. So either you are a universalist, or you don’t believe that everyone receives this conviction.

Not everyone receives this conviction.

It’s legal because that’s what the word means. That’s how the original audience would have understood it, not in the sense of modern evangelicalism.

I'm not that familar with Greek. If you are you can explain the use of the Greek word: elegchó

I have an aquaintance who is a prof. in Greek and Thd. Maybe I can ask him about it.

But you said you weren’t even sure it was the Spirit.

I wasn't sure it was the Holy Spirit who caused my conviction. I'm sure it was the Holy Spirit who gave me a new heart at repentance.

So is it a group, or an individual? It can’t be both.

That is definitely not the plain reading of the text.

I don't find the reading strange at all. It can be said all have strayed because of Adam, so if a person comes to God, he has come back to God.

The “you” here is the elect, the sheep.

Still the same thing. The elect were not believers before they "return" to God.

Again, you are using conviction in a non-biblical sense.

What other word should I use? Contrition?

 

[zoidar]

In agreement with all Scripture,
particularly "NOT by power, nor by might, but by MY SPIRIT sayeth the Lord of Hosts" (not sure if "of Hosts" is in the original, but He is Lord who is Lord of Hosts. Are there others ? shrugs - don't know)

Agree, but we won't agree on why a person comes to the point of conviction.

 

[Hammster]

The Jailor asked what to do to be saved. A person saved and regenerated will not likely ask what to do to be saved

Two things. One, are you sure he was talking about salvation? And two, if he was, how would he have known he was saved?

Not everyone receives this conviction.

So not everyone is in the will of God to receive this godly sorrow. Okay.

I'm not that familar with Greek. If you are you can explain the use of the Greek word: elegchó

Start with comparing its other uses.

I have an aquaintance who is a prof. in Greek and Thd. Maybe I can ask him about it.

I wasn't sure it was the Holy Spirit who caused my conviction. I'm sure it was the Holy Spirit who gave me a new heart at repentance.

And how do you know that?

I don't find the reading strange at all. It can be said all have strayed because of Adam, so if a person comes to God, he has come back to God.

I’m sure it can be said. But the text certainly doesn’t read that way. It’s not Schrödinger’s Cat.

Still the same thing. The elect were not believers before they "return" to God.

Then there’s no actual meaning to “elect”.

What other word should I use? Contrition?

How about godly sorrow?