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Wild claims about only SDAs being young Earth Creationists in the 1800's and early 1900's.

The Barbarian

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Oh, give us a break! J Y Chen and S J Gould tell you the "evolutionary trees" don't exist at all - more like "evolutionary lawns".
You were misled about that. Gould, for example, says that evolutionary trees are generally inferred, not that they don't exist. In fact, he mentions horses, ammonites, and forams as examples of evolutionary descent for which species-to-species fossils are readily found. The "evolutionary lawn" is the product of some creationist organizations that try to explain the evidence by suggesting that a limited amount of evolution occurs within "kinds", producing new species, genera, and sometimes families of organisms.
Chordates were found all the way down in the Pre-Cambrian layer, which is exactly what SHOULD NOT be the case if evolutionary theory were correct..
No. You were misled about that. The oldest known chordate, Pikaia, is found in the lower Cambrian, as are some other early chordates found in China. The earlier Ediacaran fauna has some phyla that are much older than chordates. However, there is nothing in evolutionary theory that says chordates couldn't be very ancient. That's just a story they told you. And they weren't up to date on the data, as well.
.but of course, when such findings destroy the evolutionary time table,
Nope. Someone who didn't know any better than you just made up a story.
all we need do is wait for some hack to publish high sounding jargon "explaining" why up is down and down is up.
Chordates show up pretty early. But not the earliest phylum. If you'd learn something about the issue, you'd be more effective arguing against science.
 
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The Barbarian

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I simply can't argue with a person who pretends scientific criticism of his ideas doesn't exist.
You're just a person who pretends people believe things they don't. Try to deal with what I've shown you, instead of things you make up for me to believe. You don't want to talk about turtles any more?
Did I not show you the statement where your own atheistic scientific community member Olsen stated the "birds/dinos" idea as "the paleontological equivalent of cold fusion"
That's the thing about science; it's not about opinions. It's about facts. You don't even have any idea of why Stors Olsen objected to the finding, or why the vast majority of scientists rejected his interpretation. Would you like to learn about that?

But, because you guys must attribute the rise of dinos from SOMETHING...well, the "birds/dinos" theory must be upheld at any cost.
I actually accepted Feduccia's claims back in the day. (Olsen was a follower of Alan Feduccia) Turns out, the issue depends on the reduction of digits in birds and dinosaurs, and in the end, the evidence shows the same digit was reduced in both, contrary to Feduccia's claim. BTW, Feduccia and Olsen offer you very little comfort; their argument is that birds and dinosaurs evolved from a common thecodont ancestor. You really want to endorse that idea?

"The idea of feathered dinosaurs and the theropod origin of birds is being actively promoted by a cadre of zealous scientists acting in concert with certain editors at Nature and National Geographic who themselves have become outspoken and highly biased proselytizers of the faith. Truth and careful scientific weighing of evidence have been among the first casualties in their program, which is now fast becoming one of the grander scientific hoaxes of our age—the paleontological equivalent of cold fusion."
In fact, even creationists now admit the fact of feathered dinosaurs. Too many instances to deny, these days. Thought you knew. Meantime, the transitional fossils between base anapsids and turtles are precisely what you denied. But that's the reality. Would you like to see some more of those?
 
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Phoneman-777

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What I posted has nothing to do with features that are common between different species.

So try again: what is illegitimate about that figure? This time you might try understanding what it says before responding.
It appeared to me that you were arguing that similar genes denote similar ancestory so I pointed out such similarity is no proof at all that all creatures arose from a common ancestor.
 
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Phoneman-777

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You were misled about that. Gould, for example, says that evolutionary trees are generally inferred, not that they don't exist. In fact, he mentions horses, ammonites, and forams as examples of evolutionary descent for which species-to-species fossils are readily found. The "evolutionary lawn" is the product of some creationist organizations that try to explain the evidence by suggesting that a limited amount of evolution occurs within "kinds", producing new species, genera, and sometimes families of organisms.

No. You were misled about that. The oldest known chordate, Pikaia, is found in the lower Cambrian, as are some other early chordates found in China. The earlier Ediacaran fauna has some phyla that are much older than chordates. However, there is nothing in evolutionary theory that says chordates couldn't be very ancient. That's just a story they told you. And they weren't up to date on the data, as well.

Nope. Someone who didn't know any better than you just made up a story.

Chordates show up pretty early. But not the earliest phylum. If you'd learn something about the issue, you'd be more effective arguing against science.
Chordates were the last to evolve and thus shouldn't be down there in the Pre-Cambrian, yet they're there.

Look, there is no evidence for macro-evolution, only erroneous extrapolations. If only you'd believe the plain words of God that each creature was created to reproduce "after his kind" - what you teach is that creatures can and do reproduce "after any kind, given enough millions of years".

What you need to understand is that these layers are not millions of years old, but merely thousands, and were created quickly during the Flood. That's why there are many cases where material from layers below are protruding up through the layers above - in some cases mixing has occurred with no evidence of heat. I keep the Sabbath holy because God created in 6 days and rested the 7th day - the same day we'll all be keeping for eternity in heaven.

But, among those who will not enter the kingdom are "liars" which are those who've convinced you that Genesis creation is a lie.
 
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Phoneman-777

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You're just a person who pretends people believe things they don't. Try to deal with what I've shown you, instead of things you make up for me to believe. You don't want to talk about turtles any more?

That's the thing about science; it's not about opinions. It's about facts. You don't even have any idea of why Stors Olsen objected to the finding, or why the vast majority of scientists rejected his interpretation. Would you like to learn about that?


I actually accepted Feduccia's claims back in the day. (Olsen was a follower of Alan Feduccia) Turns out, the issue depends on the reduction of digits in birds and dinosaurs, and in the end, the evidence shows the same digit was reduced in both, contrary to Feduccia's claim. BTW, Feduccia and Olsen offer you very little comfort; their argument is that birds and dinosaurs evolved from a common thecodont ancestor. You really want to endorse that idea?


In fact, even creationists now admit the fact of feathered dinosaurs. Too many instances to deny, these days. Thought you knew. Meantime, the transitional fossils between base anapsids and turtles are precisely what you denied. But that's the reality. Would you like to see some more of those?
The facts are there are no "transitional" fossils - what is found is the vast variety of species that disappeared in the Flood.

You've gone so far down the rabbit hole, you've gotten to the place where "facts" are whatever seems to be the case and "extrapolation" drives your thinking. You think complexity fell from the sky, but would laugh at the idea that a software program can arise from anything other than software designers. Perhaps you should put down the evolutionary propaganda and consume Creationist lectures which give alternative views to what you believe, and stop trusting the "truth" espoused by atheists who are not bound to "thou shalt not lie"?
 
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Phoneman-777

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You were misled about that. Gould, for example, says that evolutionary trees are generally inferred, not that they don't exist.
No, Gould said "the evolutionary trees which adorn our textbooks..."

Does that sound like "generally inferred" or "specifically inferred"? Sounds pretty specific to me.
 
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The Barbarian

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No, Gould said "the evolutionary trees which adorn our textbooks..."

Does that sound like "generally inferred" or "specifically inferred"? Sounds pretty specific to me.

"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our text- books have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. "


Notice, that he doesn't say "absence." There aren't that many species-to-species transitional series in the fossil record, but as Gould says, they are rare, not absent. Horses, for example show such transitions. If special creationism were true, there wouldn't be any. So you've really undercut your position here by citing Gould.

Nevertheless even your fellow YE creationists often admit that the many, many transitional series in the fossil record are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory.":

The facts are there are no "transitional" fossils - what is found is the vast variety of species that disappeared in the Flood.
Again, your fellow YE creationists admit that there are:

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species —include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Dr. Kurt Wise Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

The rabbit hole you've gone down into has no room for reality like this, but even honest YE creationists are aware that your denials are false.

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough.

Dr. Todd Wood The Truth About Evolution
You think complexity fell from the sky.
It's built into nature. You think God comes down and assembles hurricanes and river systems? You're so tied into magical thinking that the idea of a Creator Who could build a universe where such things happen naturally is incomprehensible to you. Even rational anti-Darwinians realize the absurdity of your position:

ID advocate Michael Denton in Nature's Destiny
"it is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science - that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended ultimately in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes.

This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school". According to special creationism, living
organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms
analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world - that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies."


Order and complexity do not fall from the sky; they are much more basic than that; they are properties of the universe God created. Your god may lack the power and competence to create such a universe, but the real God does not.

Perhaps you should put down the creationist propaganda and learn about some of the aspects of His creation. This is something a lot of biologists never get. I was lucky enough to have gone on to get a degree in systems; it was like a door opening into the larger reality of the way complexity and information form in nature. If you care to take the blinders off, here's a way to have a look that doesn't require a doctorate in systems:

Design in Nature: How the Constructal Law Governs Evolution in Biology, Physics, Technology, and Social Organizations


It's not the whole story, but it's a huge part of it. It's brilliant, and it works. Up to you, of course, but even if you don't believe what he shows you, you'll be better able to deal with the facts. God is a lot smarter than you have so far expected Him to be.
 
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The Barbarian

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Chordates were the last to evolve
No, most phyla appeared by the early Cambrian, but not all of them. You were lied to about that. And they were far from the first successful phylum. Arthropods, for example were much more successful in the Cambrian. And as you just learned, chordates appeared in the early Cambrian.

Look, there is no evidence for macro-evolution
See above. Even your fellow YE creationists admit that there is. You were misled because you don't know much about this issue, and so were very easy to fool. Spend some time learning about it, and you'll be more effective.

If only you'd believe the plain words of God that each creature was created to reproduce "after his kind
That's your modification of His word to fit your own desires. He never said anything about "reproducing after his kind." You changed it because God's own words didn't say what you needed to make your case.

What you need to understand is that these layers are not millions of years old, but merely thousands, and were created quickly during the Flood.
I know you want to believe that, but as you have seen, the evidence says otherwise. And God never said that they formed over a few thousand years. That's a modern revision of scripture. Even 19th century creationists like Spurgeon admitted millions of years of Earth history. The creationism presented at the 1920s Scopes Trial was OE creationism. Only after the Seventh-Day Adventists spread their new doctrine of YE to some evangelicals did that view have any following.

But, among those who will not enter the kingdom are "liars" which are those who've convinced you that Genesis creation is a lie.
Fortunately for you, God doesn't care what you think of evolution or the age of the Earth. It won't cost you your salvation. Just don't make your new religious ideas into an idol and declare that one must believe them to be saved. That could be a problem for you at judgement.
 
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The Barbarian

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It appeared to me that you were arguing that similar genes denote similar ancestory so I pointed out such similarity is no proof at all that all creatures arose from a common ancestor.
We can test your denial by checking the DNA of organisms of known descent. Turns out, you're wrong.
 
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sfs

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It appeared to me that you were arguing that similar genes denote similar ancestory so I pointed out such similarity is no proof at all that all creatures arose from a common ancestor.
Yeah, I get that. What you thought was wrong -- that wasn't at all what I was arguing. So that leaves us with your original false claim, that the only evidence for evolution is micro-evolution. What I showed you was evidence for common descent that isn't an extrapolation from microevolution and that can't be explained by common design. You claim that such evidence doesn't exist, and yet there it is. Does it bother you that what you've been saying is false?
 
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Phoneman-777

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"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our text- books have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. "


Notice, that he doesn't say "absence." There aren't that many species-to-species transitional series in the fossil record, but as Gould says, they are rare, not absent. Horses, for example show such transitions. If special creationism were true, there wouldn't be any. So you've really undercut your position here by citing Gould.

Nevertheless even your fellow YE creationists often admit that the many, many transitional series in the fossil record are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory.":


Again, your fellow YE creationists admit that there are:

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species —include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Dr. Kurt Wise Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

The rabbit hole you've gone down into has no room for reality like this, but even honest YE creationists are aware that your denials are false.

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough.

Dr. Todd Wood The Truth About Evolution

It's built into nature. You think God comes down and assembles hurricanes and river systems? You're so tied into magical thinking that the idea of a Creator Who could build a universe where such things happen naturally is incomprehensible to you. Even rational anti-Darwinians realize the absurdity of your position:

ID advocate Michael Denton in Nature's Destiny
"it is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science - that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended ultimately in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes.

This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school". According to special creationism, living
organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms
analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world - that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies."


Order and complexity do not fall from the sky; they are much more basic than that; they are properties of the universe God created. Your god may lack the power and competence to create such a universe, but the real God does not.

Perhaps you should put down the creationist propaganda and learn about some of the aspects of His creation. This is something a lot of biologists never get. I was lucky enough to have gone on to get a degree in systems; it was like a door opening into the larger reality of the way complexity and information form in nature. If you care to take the blinders off, here's a way to have a look that doesn't require a doctorate in systems:

Design in Nature: How the Constructal Law Governs Evolution in Biology, Physics, Technology, and Social Organizations


It's not the whole story, but it's a huge part of it. It's brilliant, and it works. Up to you, of course, but even if you don't believe what he shows you, you'll be better able to deal with the facts. God is a lot smarter than you have so far expected Him to be.
"tips and nodes" - like I said, evolutionists find what they think is "proof" and extrapolate it all the way back to the beginning.

The reason why inference is so heavily relied upon is because gradualism is false.
 
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Phoneman-777

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Yeah, I get that. What you thought was wrong -- that wasn't at all what I was arguing. So that leaves us with your original false claim, that the only evidence for evolution is micro-evolution. What I showed you was evidence for common descent that isn't an extrapolation from microevolution and that can't be explained by common design. You claim that such evidence doesn't exist, and yet there it is. Does it bother you that what you've been saying is false?
You aren't showing evidence of anything. Perhaps you ought to check out a presentation called "Icons of Evolution" which deal with some of what are proposed as "proof" for common descent, but dissected by Creationists and ID proponents to show why they're no evidence at all.

Similar genes are no evidence at all for "common descent" just as similar engineering among automakers is no evidence that all cars rolled off the same assembly line.

What you're seeing is that God used similar biological systems in different kinds because the systems simply worked well across the board so there was no reason for Him to reinvent the wheel everytime.
 
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sfs

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You aren't showing evidence of anything. Perhaps you ought to check out a presentation called "Icons of Evolution" which deal with some of what are proposed as "proof" for common descent, but dissected by Creationists and ID proponents to show why they're no evidence at all.

Similar genes are no evidence at all for "common descent" just as similar engineering among automakers is no evidence that all cars rolled off the same assembly line.
Once more, since you clearly are not reading anything that you're responding to: I did not offer similar genes as evidence for common descent. I did not offer any similarities between species as evidence for common descent.

Your response has nothing to do with what I wrote.
 
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The Barbarian

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Similar genes are no evidence at all for "common descent"
We can compare the genes of organisms of known descent. Turns out it does indicate common descent. No point in denial.
 
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The Barbarian

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"tips and nodes" - like I said, evolutionists find what they think is "proof" and extrapolate it all the way back to the beginning.
You're confusing evolution and abiogenesis again. Darwin actually never predicted a single common ancestor, thinking there could be any number of them. Only after the discovery of the way DNA functions, did we know for sure.
Perhaps you ought to check out a presentation called "Icons of Evolution" which deal with some of what are proposed as "proof" for common descent,
That was a book written by a follower of Myung Son Moon, who said he was acting on "a mission from Father" to "destroy evolution." It has a lot of religious philosophy by a person who thinks Moon was an improvement on Jesus, but not much of scientific merit.

And the direct observation of evolution in populations is pretty good evidence. Perhaps you've confused evolution with common descent?
 
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The Barbarian

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The reason why inference is so heavily relied upon is because gradualism is false.
Actually, it's rare. Even Gould, who developed the theory of punctuated equillibrium, admitted cases of gradual evolution. Would you like to learn about some of them?
 
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Ragdoll

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Yes, a small minority of Christians always thought the Earth was young. YE creationism, as we see it today, was invented by the Seventh-Day Adventists in the last century.
Do you really believe that?
 
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not true.

1. Augustine makes no argument at all that the text declares anything but a literal 6 days of creation

What the text does not say is " making all things at once, simultaneously" -- which was Augustine's belief.

A belief that cannot be wrenched into Gen 2:1-3 or Exodus 20:11 as it turns out.

Still - more obvious - Augustine was no Darwinist

Augustine:

“we now see in creatures, measured by the lapse of time, as each one fulfills its proper function, comes to creatures from those causal reasons implanted in them, which God scattered as seeds at the moment of creation when He spoke and they were made, He commanded and they were created. Creation, therefore, did not take place slowly in order that a slow development might be implanted in those things that are slow by nature; nor were the ages established at plodding pace at which they now pass. Time brings about the development of these creatures according to the laws of their numbers, but there was no passage of time when they received these laws at creation”.2
2 - Augustine. The Literal Meaning of Genesis, translated by John Hammond Taylor (1982), Vol. 1, Book 4, Chapter 33, paragraph 51–52, p. 141, italics in the original. New York: Newman Press.​

Augustine clearly affirmed a real, or “literal” Adam. He also affirms the literal rather than symbolic view - in speaking of the early chapters of Genesis, Augustine writes:

“All these things stood for something other than what they were, but all the same they were themselves bodily entities. And when the narrator mentioned them he was not employing figurative language, but giving an explicit account of things which had a forward reference that was figurative.” (On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis VIII.4.8)​


=== literal days of Genesis

What of the actual days of creation in Augustine’s thought? Augustine adopted a cautious attitude: “What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say!”

He reads Sirach 18:1 to teach that God creates everything all at once. Hence the puzzle: why does Genesis then portray creation as taking place over six days? Unlike some moderns, he is not trying to account for an older earth scenario, nor is he trying to square Genesis with evolutionary scenarios. He has his own questions which interest him.”



“Augustine argues that “the world was made, not in time, but simultaneously with time.” City of God XI.6

I.e. instantaneous

=== literal years of Genesis and not even 6000 years of life on planet Earth

“It is important to realize that Augustine quite happily affirmed the importance, even primacy, of the historical or literal sense of Scripture. And it was the literal sense of Scripture which he sought to understand—especially in his two commentaries on Genesis (do not miss the key word in his two Genesis commentaries—literal). .Augustine takes the genealogies of Scriptures as factual, believes in the long lives of the pre-flood persons of the Old Testament, and can even suggest how long man has been on the earth. Thus, in City of God (12.11 [10]) Augustine can write: “On the basis of Sacred Scripture, however, we calculate that not even six thousand years have passed since the origin of mankind.

Bob, I really like your zeal in this matter and your insistence on searching primary sources for the truth of what is said rather than believe the report of one making an argument. It is very refreshing.
It is not true that the Catholic Church teaches that the Old Testament is an allegory or myth, though some claim it does. It is also not true that the Catholic Church teaches that evolution is true. If one really reads the authoritative magisterium, we find that the first eleven books of Genesis are divinely inspired and without error. It is also a grave error to teach that there were no real Adam and Eve.

What has been abandoned by some in a naive zeal of ecumenism and shame of the truth is to put forth the absurd notion of theistic evolution.

If one understands philosophy as rightly divided and science as correctly applied, we can clearly see that Evolution is a narrative and not science. How do we know?
A narrative is a proposition stated as truth, and then looks for evidence to support it and convince others. It only looks for supporting evidence and ignores contrary evidence or tries to minimize it. Science makes a proposition and takes all avenues of reason to try and disprove it. It does not use statistical models which ignore outlying data, because we all know that one simple outlying data point which does not fall inline with the narrative destroys the whole narrative.

The error of ecumenism and shame of the truth has caused many once great Catholic institutions to abandon truth in favor of popular narrative. It is sad.

If one really love truth, like you appear to do, you search for the truth with all your heart, not just take another man at his word, and are not satisfied until you find it. I commend you in this habit which can rightly be called a virtue.

For those Catholics that think that the Church teaches evolution as true, we need to consider the words of Pope Pius XII in 1950 encyclical Humanae Generis to see that it does not support evolution, rather that modernism and evolution were so popular at the time, it was worth investigating to show forth their errors

True Catholic teaching is that Genesis is literal truth free from error as inspired by God. There absolutely was an Adam and Eve who committed actual sin by which we all died. Novel theories that try to mix the Bible and atheistic scientific materialism are false and only to be investigated with caution as our minds can easily be deceived as was Eve’s Here are Pius XII’s words

38. Just as in the biological and anthropological sciences, so also in the historical sciences there are those who boldly transgress the limits and safeguards established by the Church. In a particular way must be deplored a certain too free interpretation of the historical books of the Old Testament. Those who favor this system, in order to defend their cause, wrongly refer to the Letter which was sent not long ago to the Archbishop of Paris by the Pontifical Commission on Biblical Studies.[13] This letter, in fact, clearly points out that the first eleven chapters of Genesis, although properly speaking not conforming to the historical method used by the best Greek and Latin writers or by competent authors of our time, do nevertheless pertain to history in a true sense, which however must be further studied and determined by exegetes; the same chapters, (the Letter points out), in simple and metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of a people but little cultured, both state the principal truths which are fundamental for our salvation, and also give a popular description of the origin of the human race and the chosen people. If, however, the ancient sacred writers have taken anything from popular narrations (and this may be conceded), it must never be forgotten that they did so with the help of divine inspiration, through which they were rendered immune from any error in selecting and evaluating those documents.

39. Therefore, whatever of the popular narrations have been inserted into the Sacred Scriptures must in no way be considered on a par with myths or other such things, which are more the product of an extravagant imagination than of that striving for truth and simplicity which in the Sacred Books, also of the Old Testament, is so apparent that our ancient sacred writers must be admitted to be clearly superior to the ancient profane writers.

40. Truly, we are aware that the majority of Catholic doctors, the fruit of whose studies is being gathered in universities, in seminaries and in the colleges of religious, are far removed from those errors which today, whether through a desire for novelty or through a certain immoderate zeal for the apostolate, are being spread either openly or covertly. But we know also that such new opinions can entice the incautious; and therefore we prefer to withstand the very beginnings rather than to administer the medicine after the disease has grown inveterate.
 
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The Barbarian

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Yes, a small minority of Christians always thought the Earth was young. YE creationism, as we see it today, was invented by the Seventh-Day Adventists in the last century.
Do you really believe that?
William of Conches, for example, advocated for a non-literal reading of Genesis as well. In fact, he went so far as to argue Adam was not instantaneously created from dust. Instead, he argued the underlying truth being taught in this passage was that humans could possibly have come from natural elements working together. So on his view Genesis 2 was possibly suggesting humanity could have come about from a natural process that God implied in creation.

Robert Grosseteste followed St. Augustine in believing the six days of Genesis were metaphorical. His view was that God created light and matter which would then over time bring about the rest of creation.

...
So what happened? Why today is the word “creationist” synonymous with “young-earth creationist”? And if young-earth believers were a minority 100 years ago, even among self proclaimed creationists, why do they appear to be a major group among Christians today and have so much influence?

In the first half of the 20th century there was only one group that was mostly comprised young earth creationists, which was the Seventh-day Adventist movement. The Seventh-day Adventists were considered heretical for claiming that Sunday worshipers would be given the mark of the beast and for elevating the visions of their prophetess, Ellen G. White, to be on par with scripture.

The Seventh-day Adventists were a very charismatic group that broke off from the Millerite movement of the 19th century. Their leader, Ellen G. White claimed she received visions from God, where she was taken back to the creation week and saw that everything was created in 6 literal 24 hour days. Then the world was destroyed in a global flood that laid down the rock layers we have now. (The Creationists, 90)

Among the Seventh-day Adventists was a man named George McReady Price, who was something of an armchair geologist. He wrote several papers and books arguing the geological column was the result of Noah’s flood. So all the rock layers that demonstrated the antiquity of the Earth were really laid down during Noah’s flood. He called this ‘Flood Geology’ and he also taught the Earth was only 6000 years old, and everything was created in six days.

Many arguments modern young earth creationist date back to Price, and not actual geological specialists. For instance, Price appears to be the first person to incorrectly claim the geological column was based on circular reasoning where the rock layers were dated by their fossil content and fossils were dated by the rock layers they were found in. He also, like modern creationists, appealed to 2 Peter 3:3-7, where it talks about scoffers coming in the last days, as being a reference to evolutionists. He utilized Exodus 20:11 to argue the creation week had to be normal 7-day week. (The Creationists, 104)

He also is the basis for other common creationist arguments famously touted by Ken Ham and others. Price said “geologists and paleontologists [looked] at their facts through the colored spectacles of Darwin and Lyell,” and creationists also look at the world through the lens of scripture. Therefore, any data used support evolution can also be used to support creation. (The Creationists, 108)
...
Ronald Numbers notes Price’s ideas were mostly rejected by fundamentalists of his day. By the 1920s Price has found few followers. Numbers says, “Before about 1970 the few disciples of Price brave enough to enter graduate programs in geology usually found evolution so pervasive they either abandoned geology or discarded flood geology.” (The Creationists, 302)

But all the changed in the coming decades.
...
It wasn’t until the 20th century that many driven by fear that paleontology and evolution would do away with the Bible that the modern creationist movement began. At first the anti-evolutionists were mostly old-earth creationists. But over time, as evolution became more supported by evidence and the anti-evolutionist push seemed to be gaining little ground, my suspicion is the reaction to evolution became more fanatic and so Christians began looking for alternatives to the old-earth approaches that may have seemed like compromises to many laymen.

But the modern movement did not come from an official church interpretation of Genesis that was dogmatically accepted before Darwin, and was simply eroding away in light of modern science. It stems from Seventh-day Adventist apologists who based their belief in a young earth on the visions of Ellen G. White. Long before Darwin, Christians were interpreting Genesis in a plethora of different ways. The age of the earth was not a huge issue until very recently. So despite the claim from organization like Answers in Genesis, they are not defending something that was pivotal to Christianity and undisputed before Darwin. Christianity has always been compatible with multiple interpretations of Genesis, and the modern dogmatic adherence to young earth creationism really traced back to the visions of an alleged prophetess.


Reality matters.
 
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