From Gods Tables of Stone to the Fleshy Tables in our Hearts

[reddogs]

This is the logical fallacy of the false dilemma.

Evolution does not mean "therefore God did not create the creation", evolution is a model, a mechanism.

The literal reading of Genesis, as practiced by the Seventh Day Adventists - "dust, breathing life into statue, woman from the half of the man etc." is not useful as a model for our biology, ecosystems, health, psychology, sociology, nutrition, cosmology etc.

No, its a idea of man to push God out of the equation, and it just depends on how hard you push and you subtely drift deeper into that quicksand of mans 'theory'..

 

[trophy33]

its a idea of man

Yes, its a unifying model explaining and predicting our reality in many areas. Very useful.

God being "pushed out of the equation" only means that the equation was poorly formulated. Like the pagan god of thunder is pushed out of the "equation" when we understand the mechanism of thunders.

 

[reddogs]

Yes, its a unifying model explaining and predicting our reality in many areas. Very useful.

God being "pushed out of the equation" only means that the equation was poorly formulated. Like the pagan god of thunder is pushed out of the "equation" when we understand the mechanism of thunders.

Yes, very useful, but man doesnt put in all the realities of our existence as he doesnt know them, only God does. So who would you trust when it comes to what is truth of the matter, someone who has 'theory' about it, or someone who was there and made all we see and dont see.

 

[Gary K]

This is the logical fallacy of the false dilemma.

Evolution does not mean "therefore God did not create the creation", evolution is a model, a mechanism.

The literal reading of Genesis, as practiced by the Seventh Day Adventists - "dust, breathing life into statue, woman from the half of the man etc." is not useful as a model for our biology, ecosystems, health, psychology, sociology, nutrition, cosmology etc.

Yes it is if we believe in God and the Bible. Lots of Christians other than Adventists believe in creation.

 

[trophy33]

Yes, very useful, but man doesnt put in all the realities of our existence as he doesnt know them, only God does. So who would you trust when it comes to what is truth of the matter, someone who has 'theory' about it, or someone who was there and made all we see and dont see.

Its not "God vs man", again, its a logical fallacy.

Literal reading of Genesis is not God. Its just your preferred reading and you are just a man.

So its actually "the opinion of man vs the opinion of man" - you vs scientists. Or SDA church reading vs other churches reading. Any way we want to formulate that. In any case, you misrepresent the issue suggesting that your personal understanding is of God.

 

[trophy33]

Yes it is if we believe in God and the Bible. Lots of Christians other than Adventists believe in creation.

All Christians believe in creation.

However, only a minority (located mostly in English speaking countries, namely USA) believes in the Earth being 6,000 years old, wages war against science, evolution, big bang, globe, heliocentrism or whatever else they feel endangers their specific rigid dogmas.

 

[reddogs]

Its not "God vs man", again, its a logical fallacy.

Literal reading of Genesis is not God. Its just your preferred reading and you are just a man.

So its actually "the opinion of man vs the opinion of man" - you vs scientists. Or SDA church reading vs other churches reading. Any way we want to formulate that. In any case, you misrepresent the issue suggesting that your personal understanding is of God.

So we should 'spiritualize' or doubt what is says in the Bible and just drift from the words in it, I hear the devil somewhere in this mix, it seems as that is what he wanted from the beginning, dont believe what God has said, listen to and follow me. The Holy Spirit has to guide you in the understanding of what is from God and what He is saying, so we all must humble ourselves and pray for it and listen to what it has for us...

 

[trophy33]

So we should 'spiritualize' or doubt what is says in the Bible and just drift from the words in it, I hear the devil somewhere in this mix, it seems as that is what he wanted from the beginning, dont believe what God has said, listen to and follow me. The Holy Spirit has to guide you in the understanding of what is from God and what He is saying, so we all must humble ourselves and pray for it and listen to what it has for us...

When reality does not correspond to our understanding, we should rather advance in our understanding than to fight the reality (which is a sign of insanity).

I understand its hard/impossible to change your views while staying in the SDA church, because of the rigid adherence to Ellen White and to her personal views. But you can leave, if you are not allowed to think for yourself.

 

[Gary K]

All Christians believe in creation.

However, only a minority (located mostly in English speaking countries, namely USA) believes in the Earth being 6,000 years old, wages war against science, evolution, big bang, globe, heliocentrism or whatever else they feel endangers their specific rigid dogmas.

So? God is eternal. Jesus said:

John 14: 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Hebrews tells us this:

Hebrews 11: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[trophy33]

So? God is eternal. Jesus said:

John 14: 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Hebrews tells us this:

Hebrews 11: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

I agree that God is eternal. However, its not a logical reaction to my post.

 

[Gary K]

I agree that God is eternal. However, its not a logical reaction to my post.

So you ignore that Jesus, our creator, is the way, the truth, and the life. I wonder why.... Well not really. I know why because you're an evolutionist.

Jesus said:

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus classifies you with his murders, the Pharisees.

 

[trophy33]

So you ignore that Jesus, our creator, is the way, the truth, and the life.

Nope.

I wonder why.... Well not really. I know why because you're an evolutionist...

No need to wonder why, because its not true. Therefore, the rest of your strawman fallacy is irrelevant.

Jesus said:

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus classifies you with his murders, the Pharisees.

I believe what Moses wrote about Jesus, therefore your conclusion is wrong, again.

 

[Gary K]

At this point, your reactions seem to be purely random, without any logical cohesion.

Yeah, according to you. It's too bad you cannot, will not. see truth. I have hopes for you though as you are on my prayer list.

 

[trophy33]

Yeah, according to you. It's too bad you cannot, will not. see truth. I have hopes for you though as you are on my prayer list.

Thats cool, but irrelevant for the discussion. What is relevant for the discussion is that you keep logical rules and stay understandable, without trying to change my words into something else.

Trying to find in my words something that is not there, is not a good practice, because it leads to a habit that is a bit visible also in your work with the Bible.

 

[Gary K]

Thats cool, but irrelevant for the discussion. What is relevant for the discussion is that you keep logical rules and stay understandable, without trying to manipulate my words into something else. Its not a good practice, because it it leads to a habit.

According to you. As I remember a Sunday keeper has said you're really hard to talk to too. So it isn't just me who thinks your beliefs are flawed and you stubbornly persist in them no matter what.

 

[trophy33]

According to you. As I remember a Sunday keeper has said you're really hard to talk to too. So it isn't just me who thinks your beliefs are flawed and you stubbornly persist in them no matter what.

All this is quite irrelevant. This is not a thread about who likes me and who does not, what some "Sunday keeper" (whatever that means) said about me or not.

Try to stay focused on the topic in a useful way.

 

[Gary K]

All this is quite irrelevant. This is not a thread about who likes me and who does not, what some "Sunday keeper" (whatever that means) said about me or not.

Try to stay focused on the topic in a useful way.

Our conversation has everything to do with that Sunday keeper's comment about you. You blame all differences between our beliefs to me being an Adventist. That simply isn't true as his comment demonstrates.

 

[trophy33]

Our conversation has everything to do with that Sunday keeper's comment about you. You blame all differences between our beliefs to me being an Adventist. That simply isn't true as his comment demonstrates.

I have no idea what you are talking about, again.

In this conversation, I am saying that your reactions do not logically follow the posts you react to and that you are making plenty of reasoning errors. Nothing specific about your Adventism.

 

[reddogs]

When reality does not correspond to our understanding, we should rather advance in our understanding than to fight the reality (which is a sign of insanity).

I understand its hard/impossible to change your views while staying in the SDA church, because of the rigid adherence to Ellen White and to her personal views. But you can leave, if you are not allowed to think for yourself.

Oh, thats the issue, I need to be in a church. God loves you where you are, even if not in a church, but you have to believe and turn to Him, and follow His Word, not mans ideas of evolution and 'tradition'....

 

[oikonomia]

I thought the thread concerns the new creation rather than the old creation.
Aren't we talking about the Triune God writing Himself into man?
I mean the INK is the writing substance signifying the Spirit of God Who is God in Christ - writing His substance
into man for letters of Christ.

Since you are being manifested that you are a letter of Christ ministered by us, inscribed not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone but in tablets of hearts of flesh. (2 Cor. 3:3)

As the ink stains the paper and goes into the fabric of the paper so through the ministry
of the new covenant the living Spirit is being inscribed onto human hearts as ink stains paper.

This is a ministry of imparting God into people. Who is sufficient for such a stupendous ministry says Paul.
And such confidence we have through Christ toward God,
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God, (2 Cor. 3:4,5)

It is an unspeakably important ministry of surpassing glory. That of writing the living Spirit who is Christ into the hearts of men.
It is a ministry which abounds in glory and fades not as the old covenant ministry of the letter of the law.

How shall the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory?
For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory.
For also that which has been glorified in this respect has not been glorified on account of the surpassing glory. (vs. 8-10)

The writing instrument like a ball point pen or a fountain pen, is God.
The ink that stains the paper of human hearts is also God in Christ the Lord as the Spirit who gives life.