Is believing/faith a work ?

[Brightfame52]

Faith is a simple act of accepting what one hears from the Word of God as being true!


"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."
Romans 10:17

This sounds like Salvation by works. If you condition salvation on anything you do, any simple act you do, its salvation by works.

 

[Brightfame52]

Faith and trust in God requires willing human consent, or else it’s no longer faith and trust that we are talking about. Even if you think God pushed faith onto you, you have to willing consent.

Your argument relies on a pernicious sleight of hand categorizing personal faith as being a work knowing that scriptures says that no one is saved by works. But personal faith is not a work as Paul contrasts the two (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2, 5, 10). Jesus valued people's faith as he said "Your faith has made you well" (Mark 5:24). In addition, Jesus did not discount people making conscious choices, which faith is, as he taught that people should count the costs of discipleship.

Peter taught that if people did something (repent and be baptized) they would be saved (as that included in remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit) in Acts 2.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.​

Again:

If you condition Salvation on your faith, then by default it becomes Salvation by your works, that makes void Salvation by Grace.

 

[biblelesson]

This is what I am saying, loud and clear, and read the thread for more clarification:

If you condition salvation on anything you do, its works.

God’s condition to receive His grace is by faith. Which is apparently what you have also been saying, “by grace through faith”

The scripture actually says,
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By grace - God’s gift: whose grace? God’s
Through faith: whose faith? Ours

This is what all of us have been saying! Unless you are saying faith is not required of us!

And if we say faith is required of us, it’s because the scripture tells us it’s by God’s grace we are saved through faith [that is our faith].

We must exercise faith unless you are speaking about faith another way.

So how do a person have faith to obtain grace since the scripture above tells us “by grace we are saved - through faith?” Through faith means “faith” comes first to obtain the grace. Grace is steady, that is fixed, over 2000 years ago, but we must exercise faith to receive it.

But this is really playing semantics.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think we all know individuals who carefully calculate the timing of their salvation. John Wayne comes to mind. During his life he fancied Latin women as his wives. Although he, himself, had a marginal Protestant background his wives were all Catholics. According to Catholic doctrine the process of salvation begins with baptism at which time one's slate of sin is wiped clean. Then one is introduced to a treadmill of various works to deal with sins committed subsequent to baptism. Mr. Wayne knew the drill and calculated his baptism into the Catholic Church to take place on his deathbed. At that time he called the Catholic bishop to his bedstead who then baptized him and gave him the last rites of the Catholic Church. According to Catholic doctrine he immediately entered heaven because he had no sin whatsoever. Do you think that he is in heaven this very moment?

 

[biblelesson]

Its 'by grace through faith you are saved' not by faith you are saved' and salvation by grace produces the faith, and yes if a person says their faith is the condition they met in order for God to save them, thats salvation by their works.

I will repeat my post here because I really think what’s being said here is semantics:

God’s condition to receive His grace is by faith. Which is apparently what you have also been saying, “by grace through faith”

The scripture actually says,
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By grace - God’s gift: whose grace? God’s
Through faith: whose faith? Ours

This is what all of us have been saying! Unless you are saying faith is not required of us!

And if we say faith is required of us, it’s because the scripture tells us it’s by God’s grace we are saved through faith [that is our faith].

We must exercise faith unless you are speaking about faith another way!

So how do a person have faith to obtain grace since the scripture above tells us “by grace we are saved - through faith?”

Through faith means “faith” comes first to obtain God’s grace. Grace is steady, that is fixed, over 2000 years ago, but we must exercise faith to receive God’s grace.

So what are you really saying? How do we exercise faith to receive God’s grace?

Please don’t repeat what you have been saying. I’m asking you for a clear cut explanation based on what you have been saying!

How do we receive God’s grace based on the scripture,
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith;…”

 

[biblelesson]

I think we all know individuals who carefully calculate the timing of their salvation. John Wayne comes to mind. During his life he fancied Latin women as his wives. Although he, himself, had a marginal Protestant background his wives were all Catholics. According to Catholic doctrine the process of salvation begins with baptism at which time one's slate of sin is wiped clean. Then one is introduced to a treadmill of various works to deal with sins committed subsequent to baptism. Mr. Wayne knew the drill and calculated his baptism into the Catholic Church to take place on his deathbed. At that time he called the Catholic bishop to his bedstead who then baptized him and gave him the last rites of the Catholic Church. According to Catholic doctrine he immediately entered heaven because he had no sin whatsoever. Do you think that he is in heaven this very moment?

Only the gospel is true. No man made doctrine can overrides the true gospel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Its 'by grace through faith you are saved' not by faith you are saved' and salvation by grace produces the faith, and yes if a person says their faith is the condition they met in order for God to save them, thats salvation by their works.

I agree, but be careful concerning condemning someone else's use of a preposition. Greek is not English, not even close. Prepositions from any one language to another don't usually translate well. They certainly don't translate the same every time in different circumstances. My Dad was a Koiné Greek master; he wrote a whole book on the Greek prepositions, and how they are translated into several languages.

"by grace through faith" is translated so because of the obvious difference between the two. But if either one was translated alone they could have been legally translated either way. It could well have been translated something like, "For it is of grace that you are saved by faith." The point of the passage is the difference between grace and works, not grace and faith, in accomplishing salvation. The Greek, there, doesn't even have a preposition as a separate word from 'grace'. The translators had to go with the necessary implication in English.

In Luke 7 Jesus tells the woman that her 'faith has saved' her. Would she then be wrong to say that she was 'saved by faith'?

1 Corinthians 15 says, in some translations, "...gospel....by which you are...saved"

Romans 10 says that God's approval is based on faith.

My point here is that prepositions are VERY important, but also easy to generalize, in any language, but particularly when translated from a language one doesn't know very well. They should be held loosely, without jumping to conclusions about any one verse's use of them, out of context.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Man's faith in anything requires his consent

Man's faith in anything implies his consent. That does not mean that his consent causes the faith, any more than our decisions cause God's decree.

 

[Mark Quayle]

By grace - God’s gift: whose grace? God’s
Through faith: whose faith? Ours

This is what all of us have been saying! Unless you are saying faith is not required of us!

And if we say faith is required of us, it’s because the scripture tells us it’s by God’s grace we are saved through faith [that is our faith].

We must exercise faith unless you are speaking about faith another way!

So how do a person have faith to obtain grace since the scripture above tells us “by grace we are saved - through faith?”

I won't answer the rest of your post, but to say there is a lot of generalizing and assumption going on with it.

You are right that salvific faith is ours, but you are wrong in how that is so. It is our because it is done in us and affects us; it is by that faith that we believe, and not by an act of will. Now, I am not saying that we cannot will to believe, but that salvific faith is generated by the Holy Spirit by the mere grace of God and not by the will of man. OUR force of will, (not to mention our integrity and constancy and understanding and so on), is not up to the task of handling the Gospel. Only God can do this.

Indeed we must exercise faith, and we must grow it, and many other things concerning it, and that, even by our will to do so, but that faith is not by nature ours, but of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

God’s condition to receive His grace is by faith. Which is apparently what you have also been saying, “by grace through faith”

The scripture actually says,
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By grace - God’s gift: whose grace? God’s
Through faith: whose faith? Ours

This is what all of us have been saying! Unless you are saying faith is not required of us!

And if we say faith is required of us, it’s because the scripture tells us it’s by God’s grace we are saved through faith [that is our faith].

We must exercise faith unless you are speaking about faith another way.

So how do a person have faith to obtain grace since the scripture above tells us “by grace we are saved - through faith?” Through faith means “faith” comes first to obtain the grace. Grace is steady, that is fixed, over 2000 years ago, but we must exercise faith to receive it.

But this is really playing semantics.

If you condition salvation on anything you do, its works.

 

[Brightfame52]

I will repeat my post here because I really think what’s being said here is semantics:

God’s condition to receive His grace is by faith. Which is apparently what you have also been saying, “by grace through faith”

The scripture actually says,
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By grace - God’s gift: whose grace? God’s
Through faith: whose faith? Ours

This is what all of us have been saying! Unless you are saying faith is not required of us!

And if we say faith is required of us, it’s because the scripture tells us it’s by God’s grace we are saved through faith [that is our faith].

We must exercise faith unless you are speaking about faith another way!

So how do a person have faith to obtain grace since the scripture above tells us “by grace we are saved - through faith?”

Through faith means “faith” comes first to obtain God’s grace. Grace is steady, that is fixed, over 2000 years ago, but we must exercise faith to receive God’s grace.

So what are you really saying? How do we exercise faith to receive God’s grace?

Please don’t repeat what you have been saying. I’m asking you for a clear cut explanation based on what you have been saying!

How do we receive God’s grace based on the scripture,
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith;…”

if a person says their faith is the condition they met in order for God to save them, thats salvation by their works.

 

[Brightfame52]

I agree, but be careful concerning condemning someone else's use of a preposition. Greek is not English, not even close. Prepositions from any one language to another don't usually translate well. They certainly don't translate the same every time in different circumstances. My Dad was a Koiné Greek master; he wrote a whole book on the Greek prepositions, and how they are translated into several languages.

"by grace through faith" is translated so because of the obvious difference between the two. But if either one was translated alone they could have been legally translated either way. It could well have been translated something like, "For it is of grace that you are saved by faith." The point of the passage is the difference between grace and works, not grace and faith, in accomplishing salvation. The Greek, there, doesn't even have a preposition as a separate word from 'grace'. The translators had to go with the necessary implication in English.

In Luke 7 Jesus tells the woman that her 'faith has saved' her. Would she then be wrong to say that she was 'saved by faith'?

1 Corinthians 15 says, in some translations, "...gospel....by which you are...saved"

Romans 10 says that God's approval is based on faith.

My point here is that prepositions are VERY important, but also easy to generalize, in any language, but particularly when translated from a language one doesn't know very well. They should be held loosely, without jumping to conclusions about any one verse's use of them, out of context.

The point Im making is that if a person makes faith a requirement, a condition that they must do before God saves them, its works Now sometimes Faith is used to state the object of Faith, like Christ , so if we say we are saved by Faith, its important to elucidate that so its understood that its really the object of Faith, Christ, for we are only saved by Christ and His Grace.

 

[biblelesson]

I won't answer the rest of your post, but to say there is a lot of generalizing and assumption going on with it.

You are right that salvific faith is ours, but you are wrong in how that is so. It is our because it is done in us and affects us; it is by that faith that we believe, and not by an act of will. Now, I am not saying that we cannot will to believe, but that salvific faith is generated by the Holy Spirit by the mere grace of God and not by the will of man. OUR force of will, (not to mention our integrity and constancy and understanding and so on), is not up to the task of handling the Gospel. Only God can do this.

Indeed we must exercise faith, and we must grow it, and many other things concerning it, and that, even by our will to do so, but that faith is not by nature ours, but of God.

I understand what you are saying, and I’m glad you mentioned the salvific faith. You are speaking of the faith of Abraham we must express to obtain righteousness, Romans 4:2-4 KJV.

This is why the epistle to the Hebrews go into so much detail around Abraham’s faith because Abraham’s faith is “salvation faith” starting way back in Genesis 15:6 KJV, and confirmed in the gospels, Romans 4:3 KJV, Romans 4:21-22 KJV, and Galatians 3:6-7 KJV, and James 2:23 KJV. And looking further at James, what you are explaining is true, we must show our faith through some action. In regards to baptism, we show our faith through the action (James call this action work) of getting baptized, James 2:21-22 KJV.

You can say God packaged up Abraham’s faith to be the basis of our faith (salvific faith). This is why the apostles make reference to “being in the faith,” 2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV, “good fight of faith,” 1 Timothy 6:12 KJV, “like precious faith,” 2 Peter 1:1 KJV, “of faith” Galatians 3:7 KJV, “of the faith of Abraham,” Romans 4:16 KJV, “your most holy faith,” Jude 1:20 KJV - these verses are speaking of that spiritual “faith” of Abraham we exercise whereby righteousness is imputed on us for our justification, Romans 4:23-24 KJV.

This is a whole lesson in itself, but in essence, the “faith” in the scripture “saved by grace through faith”, is the faith of Abraham (salvific), which God ordained in Abraham as the basis of our faith to be exercise for our salvation.

This faith must be given! But we must exercise it!

 

[Clare73]

If Salvation ever becomes conditioned upon something we must do then how is that not a meritorious work or deed on our part ? If thats the case, how can it be of Grace ? For Paul writes Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Some teach that ones faith is the condition they must meet for salvation, but if thats true, which its not, then salvation is by our works.

Uninformed re-writing of the NT. . .

Only when one does not know that in the NT faith is opposed to works and, therefore, cannot be a work.

 

[Brightfame52]

Uninformed re-writing of the NT. . .

Only when one does not know that in the NT faith is opposed to works and, therefore, cannot be a work.

If you condition salvation on your faith, its works salvation !

 

[Clare73]

If you condition salvation on your faith, its works salvation !

Maybe according to you, but not according to the NT, where you have no standing.

You either believe the NT, or you don't.

You've made your choice and I've made mine.

The rest is between oneself and the Holy Spirit, where I am delighted to leave it.

Hope you are the same. . .

 

[Brightfame52]

Maybe according to you, but not according to the NT, where you have no standing.

According to scripture, Salvation is by Grace without conditions.

 

[John Mullally]

Man's faith in anything implies his consent. That does not mean that his consent causes the faith, any more than our decisions cause God's decree.

Jesus had no problem telling His disciples that He chose them as opposed to them choosing Him (John 15:16). And yet many times Jesus commended people for their faith without ever mentioning that God caused them to have faith (Luke 7:50, Mark 5:34, Luke 8:48, Luke 18:42, Matthew 9:22, Mark 10:52). It seems that if the Father is causing or decreeing faith in some individuals, Jesus would have stated that at some point in His ministry.

Faith (or trust) in God is an act of the will, describing an action between two agents. If the agency of man is absorbed under “Monergism,” then it is no longer faith or trust being displayed, but instead an action that God does to Himself through another agent.

 

[Clare73]

According to scripture, Salvation is by Grace without conditions.

Maybe according to you, but not according to the NT, where you have no standing.

 

[biblelesson]

According to scripture, Salvation is by Grace without conditions.

Through faith, through faith, through faith! Through = means “by way of,” “as a result of,” “a passage way,”

That is “you cannot get to the other side unless you go through this way first” - then the door is open. That’s what through means. Salvation by grace “through” “through” “through” faith!

I understand you are speaking of the spiritual faith we obtain, but we are required to exercise that faith. That’s why the scripture does not fail to say salvation by grace [“through faith”]

You have to be clear if you are going to try and explain away or confirm scripture. No one knows what you are saying because you are giving your opinions, thus neglecting to be a good steward of the Bible. The Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved, therefore you must be able to stand on the word of God if you are going to teach, through using appropriate scriptures so that confusion is illuminated.