Could not sharing the Gospel effect your salvation?

ARBITER01

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Did you catch your own words? You wrote that God takes us from Faith unto Faith. You then said that He leads us each step of the way. You then said that we "do what He tells us to do," but then you used the phrase, "if we are truly obedient."

How can this be? If God has taken us from Faith to Faith (not sure what that means), if God leads us each step of the way, why would the "if" condition exist?

If we study the Old Testament, we will find that God is Powerful and that we are not. We would find that God controls the thoughts of people and even animals. Constantly, God is controlling people and the things they do. Those who belong to God were prepared in advance to do His good will. But those who still belong to Satan, are held captive by the Devil to do his evil and ugly will. We all obey our Spiritual Father, whether it is God the Father, or Satan. If we belong to God, we will obey Him. If we belong to Satan, we will obey him.

Even though we have been bought back and renewed into His likeness, we still have a will that has to conform. We have to become obedient to GOD's will, not our own.

It's a lengthy process of learning how to be lead by The Holy Spirit and surrendering.
 
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Oneofhope

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Even though we have been bought back and renewed into His likeness, we still have a will that has to conform. We have to become obedient to GOD's will, not our own.

It's a lengthy process of learning how to be lead by The Holy Spirit and surrendering.

I do not find your findings to be proven through Scripture. We don't do our own will. Yes, I realize that the Bible uses similar phrases, but the Bible also talks about being controlled by one of two beings:

1) God the Father
2) Satan the Devil

We are either doing Satan's will or God's will. When owned by Satan, he causes us to disobey. When owned by the Lord, he causes us to obey.

The two passage sets below tell us what Purification looks like, how it is completed, and what the Effects are. In Ezekiel below, notice the phrase "and cause you to walk." To "cause us to walk" is the Effect of Christ's Work of Spiritual Circumcision. We don't choose to be Holy, rather, we are made to be Holy.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 . . . KJV – “Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

Colossians 2:9-15 . . . NLT – “For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision - the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.”
 
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ARBITER01

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I do not find your findings to be proven through Scripture. We don't do our own will. Yes, I realize that the Bible uses similar phrases, but the Bible also talks about being controlled by one of two beings:

1) God the Father
2) Satan the Devil

We are either doing Satan's will or God's will. When owned by Satan, he causes us to disobey. When owned by the Lord, he causes us to obey.

The two passage sets below tell us what Purification looks like, how it is completed, and what the Effects are. In Ezekiel below, notice the phrase "and cause you to walk." To "cause us to walk" is the Effect of Christ's Work of Spiritual Circumcision. We don't choose to be Holy, rather, we are made to be Holy.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 . . . KJV – “Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

Colossians 2:9-15 . . . NLT – “For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision - the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.”
We are not robots, nor does GOD force Himself upon us.

Scripturally, we see the issue of doing our own will instead of GOD's will over in Matthew,...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out devils, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.


By all rights these churchgoers were stunned that they were not accepted into heaven, but not obeying Jesus is lawlessness/rebellion. They were doing their own will.
 
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Oneofhope

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By all rights these churchgoers were stunned that they were not accepted into heaven, but not obeying Jesus is lawlessness/rebellion. They were doing their own will.

When we have Scriptures like the ones below, I will hold with the Biblical view, which is that we will do either the will of the Devil or the will of God; none other.

2Ti 2:25-26 NLT - Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

Being held captive by the Devil with the express purpose of disobedience is pretty clear. People who are held captive by the Devil couldn't possibly have free will. It is a complete illusion.
 
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ARBITER01

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When we have Scriptures like the ones below, I will hold with the Biblical view, which is that we will do either the will of the Devil or the will of God; none other.

2Ti 2:25-26 NLT - Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

Being held captive by the Devil with the express purpose of disobedience is pretty clear. People who are held captive by the Devil couldn't possibly have free will. It is a complete illusion.

You're talking about possession, wrong subject. GOD does not possess us.
 
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Oneofhope

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You're talking about possession, wrong subject. GOD does not possess us.

Possess, meaning Spiritual Fatherhood. Do you believe that all people have a Spiritual Father, be it Satan or God?

Ephesians 2:2 NLT - "You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God."
 
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ARBITER01

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Possess, meaning Spiritual Fatherhood. Do you believe that all people have a Spiritual Father, be it Satan or God?

Of course, but GOD does not possess us and control us like a robot.

And I'm not about to change my mind on this.
 
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ARBITER01

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Good to know. Is this how you feel in general? If so, there's no sense in attempting a discussion in the future.
I'm not here to be persuaded. I share my viewpoints at times on here, but I'm not here to allow people to divert me from what The Holy Spirit teaches to me. I'm not pliable like that.
 
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Oneofhope

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I'm not here to allow people to divert me from what The Holy Spirit teaches to me. I'm not pliable like that.

I'm here to discuss Biblical matters with people who are kind and considerate. The objective is to find actual Christians who are capable of both sharing and listening so that by working together, the truth can be worked through as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Still waiting....
 
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1Tonne

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A command given to the apostles (the word "apostle" even means "being sent").
If it is just the apostles, then none of us need to speak now. If none of us speak, how then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
Unfortunately, if none of us go out, then nobody will hear the Gospel. And this is exactly what I have seen. In my town, and others, within the last 40 years, I have never seen a believer sharing the Gospel outside the church. All the believers say, "I am not an evangelist, and the great commission was only for the disciples. God has given me other giftings and so I do not need to speak of His great sacrifice." So, the Gospel only gets shared within the church. This is a very neglectful and unloving attitude towards the lost.

In Matt 9:37-38 it says, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore, plead with the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.” This seems as though there should be more than just the apostles who should spread the seed of the Gospel. We should all be praying that God sends more people out to speak to the lost.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6
and.....
How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”” Mark 8:34-38

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and the one who is wise saves lives. Proverbs 11:30

"The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me. " John 14:21

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. James 1:22

Jesus said, “He who believes in Me, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water” John 7:38

Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men 2 Cor 5:11

Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel Ephesians 6:19

If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them. James 4:17

Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go Josh 1:9

The cowardly, unbelieving, murderers, sexually immoral, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone Rev 21:8

So be strong and courageous, all you who put your hope in the LORD ! Ps 31:24

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making the simple, wise. Psalms 19:7

…Whoever keeps and teaches the commandments, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:19

Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed Pro 27:5
(Tell people how the fall short of Gods standards)

Save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear Jude 1:23
 
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Peacemaker1

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Jesus shared the gospel by showing how He layed HIs life down, that they are ,living words, words that do not pass away even when the earth and heavens do, so stop talking on forums and begin laying lives down as Jesus Christ did, not talk for ever until your lives are taken away.
 
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1Tonne

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Jesus shared the gospel by showing how He layed His life down, that they are ,living words, words that do not pass away even when the earth and heavens do, so stop talking on forums and begin laying lives down as Jesus Christ did, not talk for ever until your lives are taken away.
Who are we to lay down our lives for? It is Jesus but it is also the Gospel's sake. Meaning, we should be telling people the Good News. Gospel means Good Spiel or Good Talk. If it is a talk, how will people hear without someone to tell them? So, we should not be keeping silent.
“If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it." Mark 8:34-35
We should not be ashamed to tell of His great free gift. It is free to everyone, so it would be wrong not to speak of it. Especially when we know that people are going to perish without Him.
 
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Peacemaker1

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Who are we to lay down our lives for? It is Jesus but it is also the Gospel's sake. Meaning, we should be telling people the Good News. Gospel means Good Spiel or Good Talk. If it is a talk, how will people hear without someone to tell them? So, we should not be keeping silent.
“If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it." Mark 8:34-35
We should not be ashamed to tell of His great free gift. It is free to everyone, so it would be wrong not to speak of it. Especially when we know that people are going to perish without Him.
Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Mark 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Acts 15:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 
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Peacemaker1

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do you think you have a meaning, by talking, the gospel is not talk, it is everything but talk. ( god is love, love is in laying your life down for your friends ( greatest love/LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.)


John 15:
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
 
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trophy33

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If it is just the apostles, then none of us need to speak now. If none of us speak, how then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
We are allowed to speak, but common Christians are not sent to go to the whole world, to be nomadic, to have no families etc. Apostles were, though. That was the Great Commission.

Also, regarding our current era, anybody who is interested in spiritual things can begin to study all religions, philosophies or theologies in few seconds, over internet. Also, there is some local church in almost every small town. So, technically, nobody of us need to physically stand on the street and preach like in the era in which there was no other way to get the information.

Most of Christians are talking about their faith with their close ones and thats enough.
 
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tdidymas

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If a believer has a gift of helps. How do we distinguish between a believer who does good deeds and a non-believer who does good deeds if the believer chooses to keep God's great gift a big secret? We can't see any difference. The only glory that is given, is given to the person who does the deeds. Not God.
"God knows those who are His." Just because you don't see any difference only means you have no discernment as of yet. "By their fruit you shall know them." Your judgment that God is not glorified by good works is wrong and contrary to scripture.

What I have is a big love for God and a big love for the lost. I love God and so I want to obey Him. I love my neighbour enough that I am willing to go out there and tell them of the condemnation they are under. It would be disobedient and unloving not to. So, it is love that drives me. Not a gift of evangelism.
Good, even though you sing your own praises. Go do it, and stop demanding that others follow you.
I don't mind how they say it. As long as they tell of His awesome sacrifice.
I suppose I should get one thing sorted here. When I say the word "preach", I do not mean to stand on a box and yell out. I simply mean to speak to others about what Christ has done for us. We should all want to tell our neighbour what Christ did. It should be overflowing because you love God and your neighbour. Love will cause you to do these things.
"Should" is an ideal. Yes, we should all be mature Christians, and we should all do all to God's glory. My objection to you is about your demand that everyone do as you do, as if you want followers of yourself. Why isn't your love for your neighbor satisfactory to you? Why do you have to demand that others follow you? It sounds to me like you feel burdened about your efforts, as if you feel you're failing, and so you need others to be doing the same thing. Do you think that if everyone in the churches are doing what you demand, that it will save the nation?
I have not said that they need to do the same. You misinterpret.
Some will say the Gospel in the parks and streets as I do. But some will say it in the schools, workplaces and sports teams, or simple one-to-one with friends. But we should all be looking for those opportunities to say it. We should even be trying to create situations so that we can say it. It would be unloving not to.
Why make any demands at all? I'm not misinterpreting you. You clearly claimed that if anyone is not doing personal evangelism as you describe, they are not children of God. I'm saying you're absolutely wrong in that matter. Your judgment is the very kind that Jesus said not to do.
I believe Mark 16:15 says that we all should tell as many people as possible the Gospel. "And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." Your interpretation of this verse is that it was only for the disciples and therefore we can stay silent about the awesome thing that He did for us. So that is your bias.
Here is your misinterpretation of what I said. Your judgement is wrong and slanderous. I never said we can stay silent. No one is ever silent about anything they are doing, except those who can't speak. Everything we do sends a message, that we either trust in God or not. Anyone who is ready to give account of their faith can (and will) give testimony when asked. I'm saying they don't have to be an activist like you.
I was not meaning the book, 2 Timothy in the bible. I was defending your attack on the username 2ndTimothyGroup.
But what 2ndTimGroup was saying, was that if we truly believe that people are going to hell, then we would act accordingly. So, we would warn them. Just as you would warn someone who is in a house that is on fire. You wouldn't just let them burn. That would be wrong.
If you do not warn, then you would either not believe that they are under God's wrath, or if you do believe that they are under God's wrath, then you are unloving towards your neighbour. So, in James 4:17 it says "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." And also, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." If we truly believe, we will act according to our beliefs.
I've met people who claim to be Christians who looked like they were under God's wrath because of what they were doing. "By their fruit you shall know them." But not one of these people actually listened to the gospel preached, that I know of. Perhaps one day they will repent, that's not my concern, that's for God to judge. I do not condemn anyone, that's God's action. I object to you or 2ndTimothyGroup or anyone else who condemn other Christians for not doing what you demand from them. Every true believer loves other people in the best way they know how. But this whole conversation is about your judgment that if people are not excited to be activists for evangelism, that they are not children of God - this is the judgment that makes you a hypocrite.
Once again, you misinterpret.
Some will say the Gospel in the parks and streets as I do. But some will say it in the schools, workplaces and sports teams, or simple one-to-one with friends. But we should all be looking for those opportunities to say it. We should even be trying to create situations so that we can say it. After all, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
And yes, some will be led to do other things in a support role. Such as, I do a BBQ on the streets and the person running the BBQ often does not have time to say the Gospel. But they direct people to me. Or, a wife may say to her husband, you can go out today and share the Gospel as I will look after the kids. She is supporting him while he shares.

To not warn others of the condemnation they are under would show a blatant disregard for their life. It would show a lack of love towards your neighbour and God. We should all be saying it or getting into a supporting role (as I have said right from the very first post)
I'm not misinterpreting you. I get what you're saying. I get that you have a passion for Ez. 3:18-21. But your claim that if someone doesn't do what you're doing, that they are not a child of God is a blatant disregard for the body of Christ, and you are wrong in this matter.
 
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Peacemaker1

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We are allowed to speak, but common Christians are not sent to go to the whole world, to be nomadic, to have no families etc. Apostles were, though. That was the Great Commission.

Also, regarding our current era, anybody who is interested in spiritual things can begin to study all religions, philosophies or theologies in few seconds, over internet. Also, there is some local church in almost every small town. So, technically, nobody of us need to physically stand on the street and preach like in the era in which there was no other way to get the information.

Most of Christians are sharing their faith with their close ones and thats OK.
ok but we can either follow those apostles, or your ideas instead. ( ten thousand teachers with thousands of advise to follow their words, and not actions of the apostles of the Lord)



Matthew 8:
19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Romans 16:
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


1 Corinthians 4:
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Philippians 3:
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 
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tdidymas

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Aug 28, 2014
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Speaking of exaggerations . . . you're now saying that I have personally condemned. I haven't condemned anyone to anything, for I do not have that Power. However, what I [did] do, is quote the Bible and gave a reasonable explanation of the texts.

Do you have a Transformation story that is bursting to be told to everyone you know? The ways in which you have changed beyond your own choice and Power . . . do you find it irresistible to talk about them? To know what it feels like to be held captive by the Devil only to be transferred to the captivity of God the Father . . . wow, what a difference!! Do you also find it nearly impossible to not talk about these things?

With your knowing the full Story of God in a timeline, chronological order . . . does this story compel you to speak to others about it . . . even at church (where few talk about God)? Having learned the difference between the Story of God and the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ, do you share that difference with others?
I was objecting to your original statement that this is a way to know if we are saved or not. This implies a condemnation to anyone reading your post, because you are making activist evangelism the main thing, are you not? People have their own testimony and their own way of obeying what Jesus commanded. There are other ways to bear testimony and love others without speaking. I'm saying that if someone believes in Jesus, they are saved, and have no need to doubt it, even though they aren't speaking the gospel to others as an activist. I never said that you personally condemned anyone, although "to know whether we are saved or not" implies a condemnation to someone who doesn't do as you do.
 
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