Shall Christians beat their swords into plough blades?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Is this a call to Christians today, or is it history that Christians need not practice?

 

[sandman]

Not history ... and not for Christians either ....
It is in reference to the last days (Revelation) in which there will not be any Christians. Only two groups of people in Revelation Jews and Gentiles ...this is referencing the Jews

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Not history ... and not for Christians either ....
It is in reference to the last days (Revelation) in which there will not be any Christians. Only two groups of people in Revelation Jews and Gentiles ...this is referencing the Jews

That is an interesting perspective, is it connected with Dispensationalism?

 

[Divide]

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Is this a call to Christians today, or is it history that Christians need not practice?

Seeing as the people beat their swords into plowshares it would have to be after the war of Armageddon so it's likely referring to the Millenial reign of Christ.

1000 years with Christ ruling means there isnt going to be any war. So you can make a lamp out of your AR15? Or a plowblade I guess. It sounds like we will be growing our own food then to me.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Is this a call to Christians today, or is it history that Christians need not practice?

It's prophecy... I think there's many things like this that's hard to understand, but in a sense this is also prophecy that has come true.

When was the last time your town was invaded and you had to take up arms to defend it?

I've never had to because I am from KC... There are millions upon millions of people who never once had to "learn war" - more people than even lived on earth in Jesus time - even our nations armies are by and large voluntary except in extremely unusual circumstances.

does war still exist on earth? Yes... But this is absolutely been a time of unwalled cities (such as seen in Ezekiel 38:10-16) for my entire life due to the privilege of being born in a Christian nation. The only reason I know anything about weapons is due to hunting, not because where I live has ever been invaded. (Though looking at the southern border that has just changed...)

The question you are asking is whether this is a command and I am confident in assuring you that in the passages you pointed to it is not a command. It's a statement of prophecy, something that will come to pass future from the time the prophecy was given.

And future can be anything from 1 day to hundreds of years or more.

But prophecy just occurs - we don't intentionally make it occur, it occurs naturally because God brings it to pass.

 

[Bob Crowley]

In our hopes for world peace we ignore the opposite sentiment in Joel 3:9-11

Joel 3:9-11 - NIV -
9 Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.
10 Beat your plowshares into swords
and your pruning hooks into spears.
Let the weakling say,
“I am strong!”
11 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
and assemble there.​

 

[Bob Crowley]

The Collegeville Bible Commentary (OT) had a bit to say on these verses. It's a Catholic commentary.

"(Isaiah) Verses (2):2-4 are duplicated almost exactly in Mic 4:1-3. Micah, like Isaiah, was an eighth century prophet of of the southern kingdom. We do not know which prophet, if either, composed this oracle. The prospect of nations streaming to Mount Zion is often related to the pilgrimages of Jewish exiles to Jerasalem in the postexilic period....

.... This vision of the future of Zion already contains the idea that Israel is a light to the nations, a theme we will meet again in Second Isaiah....

... We should note that the prophet Joel (Joel 4:10) inverts the the great vision of peace and bids the nations beat their ploughshares into swords in anticipation of battle on the day of the Lord. Neither prophecy should be taken as a prediction of the future; both are projections of basic human hopes and fears..."

From my point of view, if Isaiah and Micah were loading up one side of the boat, and Joel the other side, I'd have to say that right now Joel's prophecy seems more likely to capsize SS Earth.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Peace seems good.

 

[Divide]

When was the last time your town was invaded and you had to take up arms to defend it?

I've never had to because I am from KC... There are millions upon millions of people who never once had to "learn war" - more people than even lived on earth in Jesus time - even our nations armies are by and large voluntary except in extremely unusual circumstances.

When I was a kid I remember that terrorists were starting to hijack planes and stuff. I remember several times that people would say, it'll never happen here.

My town has never been attacked. Does that mean it will never happen? I don't think that we have a promise of peace. Peace time is sure nice and I have enjoyed it. But wars and rumours of wars are all over. Our government has been all over the globe inflicting Democracy upon many nations. How long will they take it before someone hits us?

We have been invaded at the southern border. For awhile now it's been nothing but men from different countries coming in and not a lot of women. This is a clue. Men don't take their wives to war. They are leaving their families behind and coming in. Why?

I believe that war is coming to US soil. It will happen overnight and fast. We have been at peace time for so long that many have been complacent and refuse to believe the possibilities of real war to come here to our soil. It don't even have to come to your town for it to affect you. Maybe they'll hit 2 or 3 coastal cities with nukes and send 100 000 troops over the north border or something, or activate the cells of soldiers that have already come across our borders. What if that happens? Far away from KC. But the nation becoming a state of war will disrupt the supply chains of food and pretty soon your own neighbors in KC will be attacking you for your food and water.

All we have to do to realize this is to watch the wars overseas and it always happens the same. People stop having access to food and medical and chaos erupts. When you get an armed gang of people attacking you they don't have to be foreign soldiers to make you change your priorities. People will change their priorites fast when that happens. It'll be like 125 years ago. Back then they didn't call it survival, they called it day to day life. You see it in Western shows. Water. Food. Arms. Friend or Foe? Does your first aid kit contain supplies to remove a bullet at home?! (an eyed medical probe and hemostats).

And a lot of faith in God. Guns wont save people. Guns will help some. God is still our primary means of protection. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst is my motto. Make no mistake about it, we are not in peace time. We are in a state of war. Think of this time as the calm before the storm.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Think of this time as the calm before the storm.

Oh I believe all calm is over and all pretence of peace is over; evil will only increase now.

However, the time of relative peace and safety is close enough to us that it can still be used as an example of a time of peace that people can actually relate to.

I try and give some illustration to any point I try to make, so that I can be a little more readily understood - I don't use illustrations to argue about them, generally speaking.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Personally, I long for the day when people learn war no more.

 

[hislegacy]

Luke 22:36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

John 10:18 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear.

Jesus was not opposed to His disciples carrying weapons for protection.

 

[hislegacy]

Personally, I long for the day when people learn war no more.

ditto - or murder the unborn child - or practice homosexuality - or participate in witchcraft - or use alcohol or drugs - or abuse children - or harm their spouses.

I pray for the day it all stops -

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

John 10:18 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear.

Jesus was not opposed to His disciples carrying weapons for protection.

I am sure that John 10:18 doesn't say that.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

ditto - or murder the unborn child - or practice homosexuality - or participate in witchcraft - or use alcohol or drugs - or abuse children - or harm their spouses.

I pray for the day it all stops -

Agreed, except that practising homosexuality and participate in witchcraft and use alcohol and drugs, all three seem out of place, insofar as they needn't involve any unwilling party. I long to see the day come when such things no longer dominate people's lives.

 

[hislegacy]

I am sure that John 10:18 doesn't say that.

True - however John 18:10 certainly does.

Regardless it doesn't negate our Lord instructing His Apostles to arm themselves when needed, nor prohibit Simon Peter from carrying one.

 

[hislegacy]

Agreed, except that practising homosexuality and participate in witchcraft and use alcohol and drugs, all three seem out of place, insofar as they needn't involve any unwilling party. I long to see the day come when such things no longer dominate people's lives.

All three of those absolutely involve unwilling parties - like warfare they leave collateral damage in their path. Mothers, fathers, siblings, spouses and children are all casualties of their chosen lifestyle. Ask any pastor or counselor who has dealt with the damage caused by them.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

True - however John 18:10 certainly does.

Regardless it doesn't negate our Lord instructing His Apostles to arm themselves when needed, nor prohibit Simon Peter from carrying one.

I hoped you'd correct the reference. Well done.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

All three of those absolutely involve unwilling parties - like warfare they leave collateral damage in their path. Mothers, fathers, siblings, spouses and children are all casualties of their chosen lifestyle. Ask any pastor or counselor who has dealt with the damage caused by them.

I can see where alcohol in excess and as an addiction can be devastating and the same goes for drugs. But many people use alcohol, and some use drugs without the ill effects.

Homosexuality and witchcraft do not seem to be linked, at least not in my mind so I will treat them separately.

Witchcraft (wicca and the like) just seems strange to me, not devastating nor like it is in movies.

Homosexuality seems to be involuntary, but the choice to engage in same sex, sex-acts is a choice just as it is a choice to engage in opposite sex, sex-acts. The former receives condemnation from Christians in all cases while the latter is not condemned but rather it is praised when it is within marriage.

How ought one approach a same sex couple who are legally married and express a desire for Christ in their lives, or perhaps in the life of one of them?

 

[hislegacy]

How ought one approach a same sex couple who are legally married and express a desire for Christ in their lives, or perhaps in the life of one of them?

It is no different from anyone else caught in sin - there is no greater nor lesser sin, so the approach is exactly the same. Welcome them, feed the interest they have through discipleship classes and good scriptural sermons. We emphasize the Word of God and living righteous and Holy lives. IOW leading the person to fall in love with God.

We have, over the years, seen people set free from sins of all types, including homosexuality.

If Homosexuality was 'involuntary', then God is an unjust God because He specifically calls homosexuality sin.