Baptism is a work.

[rturner76]

He stated "your pope is inviting homosexual, lesbian, and transgender filth through your doors", and he then accuses you afterwards of being personal in your rants.

Classic projection behavior.

Yes and even members of my own Church make such accusations against the current Pope (Francis). My take on it is that the doors of the Church are open to all sinners. I mean is there a better place for a sinner to be than in Church? It also feeds into a person's sin of pride when they are taught that they can glean the true interpretation by leaning on their own understanding and don't feel that they can be instructed by a person with more experience in Bible study than themselves. That attitude is both arrogant and prideful. I believe it is more prudent to be guided by a tried and true educator of proper scriptural interpretation than sort of: going it alone. Especially when it comes to learning the more intricate lessons that scripture teaches.

As we all know it is much easier to point out the splinter in another's eye rather than remove the plank from our own eye.

 

[ARBITER01]

He stated "your pope is inviting homosexual, lesbian, and transgender filth through your doors", and he then accuses you afterwards of being personal in your rants.

Classic projection behavior.

I didn't accuse him of it, I told him to go ahead and get personal about it,.... which he did and I thanked him for that. It wasn't a sort of compliment, but if he wishes to think that he can.

 

[ARBITER01]

My take on it is that the doors of the Church are open to all sinners. I mean is there a better place for a sinner to be than in Church?

I don't think you've looked into this problem much.

A good portion of the mainline Protestant denominations thought the same way. Once these people that remained in their sin worked their way up into certain leadership positions, them came the changes that agreed with their sinful lifestyle that they refused to let go of.

It's caused many church and denomination splits that didn't need to happen. These younger people purposely did it in these churches to take over the church with their sinful ways.

 

[rturner76]

So would I be correct to conclude that for Catholics, they use Peter to understand Paul?

Not necessarily. I mean Paul had his own mission to the Gentiles and his message suited them. St Peter was sent to the Jewish faithful and his message was more relatable to them. Especially when we consider how it was the Jewish faithful that founded Christianity and St Peter maintained Jewish dietary laws. Paul had to earn the trust of the other Apostles considering he executed Jewish Christians for Rome. As Paul received his own revelation from Christ spiritually, St Peter learned the Gospel from Christ in person while he was still here on Earth.

I guess at the end of the day, St Peter preaches more about the how and St Paul was more focused on the why if that makes sense.

 

[rturner76]

I don't think you've looked into this problem much.

A good portion of the mainline Protestant denominations thought the same way. Once these people that remained in their sin worked their way up into certain leadership positions, them came the changes that agreed with their sinful lifestyle that they refused to let go of.

It's caused many church and denomination splits that didn't need to happen. These younger people purposely did it in these churches to take over the church with their sinful ways.

You're right in that the Protestant Churches have split a million different ways. The Catholic Church is unified so maybe your rejection of sinners to whatever brand of Christianity you practice is splitting your church(s) up but the Catholic Church remains as the one true and Apostolic Church. Our leader believes that sinners belong in the Church where they can be converted like Christ preached, Hate the sin, not the sinner. I guess I can see how that message gets confused between the 100,000 different denominations.

With no unity, I can see why your churches get confused.

 

[ARBITER01]

You're right in that the Protestant Churches have split a million different ways. The Catholic Church is unified so maybe your rejection of sinners to whatever brand of Christianity you practice is splitting your church(s) up but the Catholic Church remains as the one true and Apostolic Church. Our leader believes that sinners belong in the Church where they can be converted like Christ preached, Hate the sin, not the sinner. I guess I can see how that message gets confused between the 100,000 different denominations.

With no unity, I can see why your churches get confused.

Lol.

Yea, Pentecostals are so split that we are on track to overtake your catholic church amount by 2050. Most likely it will be sooner than that.

Oh yea,... we are just doing so bad, so divided,......so much that people love us and want to be members. Lol.

 

[Guojing]

Not necessarily. I mean Paul had his own mission to the Gentiles and his message suited them. St Peter was sent to the Jewish faithful and his message was more relatable to them. Especially when we consider how it was the Jewish faithful that founded Christianity and St Peter maintained Jewish dietary laws. Paul had to earn the trust of the other Apostles considering he executed Jewish Christians for Rome. As Paul received his own revelation from Christ spiritually, St Peter learned the Gospel from Christ in person while he was still here on Earth.

I guess at the end of the day, St Peter preaches more about the how and St Paul was more focused on the why if that makes sense.

So why not believe that gentiles, who hear from Paul, would be saved by faith alone without works of any kind, aka Romans 4:5?

If gentiles never heard of Jesus's first ministry to Israel in Matthew to John, and never read the OT at all, nor any of the non-Pauline letters, would they still have to do any works in order to be declared righteous?

 

[Oneofhope]

Oh yea,... we are just doing so bad, so divided,......so much that people love us and want to be members. Lol.

Indeed, the modern day church is loved to a degree, I would suppose, but that's because it does not require a Circumcised Heart or a Romans 12:2 Transformation. Anyone can take communion, though that too is exclusive to Believers. Just put money in the plate, wave your hands in the air, say "yes, yes, yes," and everything will be great. Well, until that day when Jesus says, "Get away from Me. I never "Knew" you."

 

[ARBITER01]

Indeed, the modern day church is loved to a degree, I would suppose, but that's because it does not require a Circumcised Heart or a Romans 12:2 Transformation. Anyone can take communion, though that too is exclusive to Believers. Just put money in the plate, wave your hands in the air, say "yes, yes, yes," and everything will be great. Well, until that day when Jesus says, "Get away from Me. I never "Knew" you."

Jesus is more than capable of keeping those that He loves with Him.

 

[rturner76]

Lol.

Yea, Pentecostals are so split that we are on track to overtake your catholic church amount by 2050. Most likely it will be sooner than that.

Oh yea,... we are just doing so bad, so divided,......so much that people love us and want to be members. Lol.

Pentecostalism is exiting with everyone jumping around hooting and hollering. It's a great adrenaline rush but that doesn't mean that it's founded on sound doctrine. Where are your Universities, hospitals, and orphanages? You're not doing God's work as much as you are deceiving the masses. If your so-called church overtakes Catholicism it would just be proof that the false prophet is in control and the end is near.

 

[rturner76]

So why not believe that gentiles, who hear from Paul, would be saved by faith alone without works of any kind, aka Romans 4:5?

If gentiles never heard of Jesus's first ministry to Israel in Matthew to John, and never read the OT at all, nor any of the non-Pauline letters, would they still have to do any works in order to be declared righteous?

Faith alone is more like a drug than a work of faith. If one has faith, there will be evidence of that faith (ie repentance). If one believes they are saved no matter how they live their Christian faith they are deceived. Remember " Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” not "go on sinning and we will take care of it," True faith requires repentance. Repentance not only means on is sorry but that one is sorry and they will do their best to change. That doesn't mean that one must live a perfect life at that point but they must at least make an effort to change their sinful ways. Otherways, why would the Bible talk about a day of judgment if nobody will be judged?

Does that make any sense? I do believe that faith is given freely, however I believe that once one does have actual faith, they will have some evidence of it. Take another look at the book of James who was Christ's brother. He knows what he is talking about. Paul's lessons are great and helpful but his writings must be tempered by the writings of the other Apostles like St Peter and St James who learned from Jesus the Christ live and in person and don't base their gospeles on divine revelation only.

Paul had a great theology that focused on grace but there are other gospels that focus more on obedience. That is why they must be taken in as a whole and not just focus on the writings of one Apostle, especially if that apostle killed Christians and never met Jesus in the flesh.

 

[Guojing]

Does that make any sense? I do believe that faith is given freely, however I believe that once one does have actual faith, they will have some evidence of it. Take another look at the book of James who was Christ's brother. He knows what he is talking about. Paul's lessons are great and helpful but his writings must be tempered by the writings of the other Apostles like St Peter and St James who learned from Jesus the Christ live and in person and don't base their gospeles on divine revelation only.

Paul had a great theology that focused on grace but there are other gospels that focus more on obedience. That is why they must be taken in as a whole and not just focus on the writings of one Apostle, especially if that apostle killed Christians and never met Jesus in the flesh.

That why I presented the scenario in my 2nd paragraph. If, as a gentile, all I had to read was Paul's 13 letters, Romans to Philemon, I had no access to any other scripture.

So there is no way I can temper those 13 letters with what you are suggesting.

That was why I asked you whether you believe I must use Peter and James to understand Paul.

When you said "Paul's lessons are great and helpful but his writings must be tempered by the writings of the other Apostles like St Peter and St James who learned from Jesus the Christ live and in person and don't base their gospels on divine revelation only, that is also what you are suggesting correct?

 

[Strong in Him]

Take another look at the book of James who was Christ's brother.

The traditional view is that the author of this book was Christ's brother - but it may not have been.

He knows what he is talking about.

As do all NT writers.

Paul's lessons are great and helpful but his writings must be tempered

"tempered"? Why?

by the writings of the other Apostles like St Peter and St James who learned from Jesus the Christ live and in person and don't base their gospeles on divine revelation only.

i) If the James who wrote the book was one of the 12, then he wasn't the Lord's brother.
ii) Are you implying that Paul's writing is not as reliable/trustworthy because he wasn't one of the 12?

Paul had a great theology that focused on grace but there are other gospels that focus more on obedience.

?? Such as?

That is why they must be taken in as a whole and not just focus on the writings of one Apostle, especially if that apostle killed Christians and never met Jesus in the flesh.

So because Paul had a past before he met Jesus, and because he didn't meet/know Jesus before the crucifixion, he cannot be trusted?

 

[ARBITER01]

Pentecostalism is exiting with everyone jumping around hooting and hollering. It's a great adrenaline rush but that doesn't mean that it's founded on sound doctrine. Where are your Universities, hospitals, and orphanages? You're not doing God's work as much as you are deceiving the masses. If your so-called church overtakes Catholicism it would just be proof that the false prophet is in control and the end is near.

Lol, I love it.

People have badmouthed us for years, and GOD keeps growing us no matter what. John MacArthur wrote his first book denouncing Pentecostals way back in 1978, now I think we recently outgrew his baptist denomination, I think possibly two-fold.

Once Jesus removes your candle, it's a guaranteed crash and burn scenario.

 

[Oneofhope]

Lol, I love it.

People have badmouthed us for years, and GOD keeps growing us no matter what. John MacArthur wrote his first book denouncing Pentecostals way back in 1978, now I think we recently outgrew his baptist denomination, I think possibly two-fold.

Once Jesus removes your candle, it's a guaranteed crash and burn scenario.

Unfortunately, the less Biblical a "church," the greater their numbers and $$ in the collection plate.

Blind people aren't interested in the Truth that exposes their evil ways, that's why the Apostles warned much about false teachers in how they will lead the "many" astray. Once this has happened, who is left? Could this be why Paul was abandoned within the Province of Asia? Imagine that . . . the great Apostle Paul abandoned. There weren't very many true believers during the remarkable Day of Paul, and there aren't many more in our current day.

2 Timothy 1:15 NLT - "As you know, everyone from the province of Asia has deserted me--even Phygelus and Hermogenes."

 

[ARBITER01]

Unfortunately, the less Biblical a "church," the greater their numbers and $$ in the collection plate.

Interesting.

What in your opinion constitutes a truly biblical church?

 

[Oneofhope]

Interesting.

What in your opinion constitutes a truly biblical church?

Easy question to answer: Any Church that teaches the Power of God first. From there, the Church would then emphasize the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ. If a church hasn't made these four "elements" top priority of understanding and knowledge, it is a wayward system, whatever name it might hold. To date, I have yet to set foot into a "real church" and have been taking those steps for 56 years.

 

[ARBITER01]

Easy question to answer: Any Church that teaches the Power of God first. From there, the Church would then emphasize the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ. If a church hasn't made these four "elements" top priority of understanding and knowledge, it is a wayward system, whatever name it might hold. To date, I have yet to set foot into a "real church" and have been taking those steps for 56 years.

Again, interesting. I find a lot of agreement with that.

Let me ask you one more question, does a church operate in the power of GOD or does an individual?

 

[Oneofhope]

Again, interesting. I find a lot of agreement with that.

Let me ask you one more question, does a church operate in the power of GOD or does an individual?

That is a very good question and I'm impressed that it even enters your mind (written out of respect and not a mocking heart at all). Well, I believe what the Scriptures tell us as the Eternal Plan of God is described:

Ephesians 3:9-11 NLT - "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

Paul takes us all the way "back" to the Heavens before God created the physical world, teaching us that there is an Eternal Plan kept hidden to the vast majority of humans, even to this day. But there is a Holy Purpose of the Church, for at the core of the Plan of God is to demonstrate His Almighty Power to the unseen Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms. We are on display, my friend.

So . . . the answer to your question is an option that you hadn't provided. Paul is clearly teaching us that God is using us like a tool to show His Supreme Power and ability to create a Plan and see that it happens without fault. So again, we are mere clay in the Potter's hands to be used at His discretion, for who are we to question the Potter and His ways?

 

[rturner76]

That why I presented the scenario in my 2nd paragraph. If, as a gentile, all I had to read was Paul's 13 letters, Romans to Philemon, I had no access to any other scripture.

So there is no way I can temper those 13 letters with what you are suggesting.

That was why I asked you whether you believe I must use Peter and James to understand Paul.

When you said "Paul's lessons are great and helpful but his writings must be tempered by the writings of the other Apostles like St Peter and St James who learned from Jesus the Christ live and in person and don't base their gospels on divine revelation only, that is also what you are suggesting correct?

Well to clarify, yes. I believe the New Testament should be taken as a whole and completed work. I believe that is why The Church decided to include all of the writings that they did. I believe that every point of view the Apostles wrote about are useful. I don't believe that there is just one person's writings that should be considered above all others but they all should be taken into account, keeping in mind that the Epistles were written to specific Churches at specific times and addressed the issues that people were struggling with in their differing congregation. Issues that often appear still in our modern churches to this day which make the writings relevant for all time..

The 12 disciples (Apostles) all had individual gifts and individual points of view concerning the Gospel. As I said earlier, Peter and James are more focused on obedience, and Paul's writings are more focused on the gift of grace. I don't believe that scripture cntradicts itself but I believe in the same way the Apostles had different gifts and talents while each having a point of view that was relatable to different groups of people, the same is true today that different Priests/Pastors/Bishops have each their own talents and message that different people can relate to.

The Christian Church (or catholic church in that catholic means universal) It was the first religion that was not based on ethnicity so a wide range of people with different backgrounds were preached to and I believe that different Apostles each had their own talents when it came to reaching different people with the gospel (meaning good news) who were from different places and had different backgrounds and customs.