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The Question of Universalism and Possible Ultimate Release from Hell

Berserk

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First of all, God is a God of absolute and perfect Justice. This is why Jesus had to go to Calvary. The answer always remains the same. We have what we call free will and the Bible calls freedom of choice.
So God can wait indefinitely long until the damned exercise their free will to choose the path of spiritual maturation and ultimate reconciliation with God with the assistance of the Spirit of God.
We are told many times in the Bible that God is going to destroy evil. At least 50 or 60 times. This has to do with the lake of fire and the second death.
You ignore the Seer's pattern first death--first resurrection, then 2nd death, followed by 2nd resurrection--a reference to the eternally open gates of the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:25).
Perhaps death, hell and the grave will all be destroyed in the lake of fire. All unGodlyness will be destroyed and if anything survives it will honor God, as they say, every knee shall bow.
After all the damned ascend through the eternally open gates of the New Jerusalem, so that all souls formerly in Hades (= "under the earth") are now worshipping God and Christ (so Rev. 5:13)? In the universal restoration every knee will bow and every tongue will confess voluntarly and joyfully in their salvation..
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread was moved from General Theology to Controversial Christian Theology, which is the only place here to debate universalism.
 
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Berserk

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The first 4 sections of texts on Paul's universalism can be conveniently found in posts 10. 12-13, and 16.

UNIVERSALISM IN 1 CORINTHIANS 15:22-24:

The standard translation of 1 Cor. 15:22-24 must be challenged. It reads:
"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ. THEN COMES THE END, WHEN HE HANDS OVER THE KINGDOM TO GOD THE FATHER."

The capitalized translation must be rejected for 3 reasons:
(1) The verb "comes" is NOT present in the Greek text!
(2) The phrase "But each in his own order" implies a sequence of 3 stages of resurrection.
The phrase would not have been added if the sequence were only "Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ" because Christ's resurrection is a given and the phrase about sequence would be unnecessary, even absurd.
(3) A 2-item sequence would contradict Revelation, which teaches 3 resurrections--Jesus' resurrection, the resurrection of believers ("the first resurrection" [19:5] after Jesus' resurrection), and then the implied 2nd resurrection.

Here is the correct translation of 1 Cor. 15:22-24 that eliminates these 3 problems:
"For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. BUT EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER: (a) Christ the first fruits (or "beginning"), (b) then at His coming those who belong to Christ, (c) THEN THE REST (Greek: "telos"--the damned in Hell), when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father."

The Greek "ho telos" can mean "the end in the sense of completion" or "the final step." Thus, in this 3-member series, it means "completion" in the sense of "the rest."

1 Cor. 15:22-25 implies universalism for 5 reasons:
(1) The first "all" is universal; the 2nd "all" parallels the first and is therefore also universal.
This means "ALL shall be made alive," including all in Hell.
(2) Besides Christ, the other 2 resurrected groups are raised "in Christ" and are therefore saved. All Christians are included in the 2nd resurrection phase. That leaves all the damned in Hell to be raised in Christ" (and therefore saved) in the 3rd phase.
(3) Without the 3rd resurrection phase, Paul contradicts Revelation, which teaches 3 phases. The universalist interpretation removes the contradiction in God's Word.
(4) The universalist interpretation adds the 3rd phase that makes sense of the otherwise inexplicable concern not to mix up the correct sequence: "But each in his own order."
(5) The Greek "haparche" (first fruits" also means "beginning" and therefore expects "to telos" as the third in the resurrection series with the complementary meaning "end" in the sense of "completion" or "the rest."
 

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bling

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You don't believe (1) that sinners would be happier in Heaven than in Hell's torments or (2) that sinners in hell might mature and be transformed with the help of an omnipotent God? Just what can God's continuing love for sinners in hell mean, if His justice is retributive rather than reformative?
I never said “sinners would prefer hell over heaven”, they just will never be happy in heaven. Heaven is not made to fit the person; the person has to be fit for heaven. I have explained there are somethings which cannot be done even by God, the big one for us is: “God can not just “make” or force us to Love Him with Godly type Love since if it is forced or programmed into us it is not Godly type Love. On earth we can make a truly free will choice to humbly accept or reject Godly type Love with truly likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season). In heave there is no likely alternative to allow it to be a free will choice (hell is not a likely other alternative).

I believe in degrees of punishment from 0-to huge and then annihilation.
So you've actually gone out of body and interviews "sinners in hell?" The post on 1 Peter 3:19, 4:6 refutes your claim.
Sorry for my brief explanation, let me explain:

The only fair and just scenario would be for, who go to hell is to have those who had the free will choice (I would say repeated times) to humbly accept or reject God’s charity as pure undeserved charity yet have always refused to the point God realize they would never choose to accept of their own free will.

My explanation above shows that it is completely illogical for a person in hell to make a free will choice to accept God’s charity, since there is no likely alternative, making the acceptance of God’s charity as charity the forced choice if it were available.
 
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Berserk

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POSTMORTEM RELEASE FROM GEHENNA IN JESUS' TEACHING

As expected, Jesus' teaching neatly aligns with the universalist texts in 1 Peter, Paul, and Revelation. Jesus' preferred word for "Hell" is the Jewish term "Gehenna," a common term for "Hell" in ancient rabbinic Judaism. So the meaning of this word must be sought in its ancient rabbinic usage. This usage demonstrates that rabbinic "Gehenna" is foundational for the later doctrine of Purgatory. To quote one Jewish site:

"For the most part the rabbis did not believe souls would be condemned to eternal punishment. "The punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months," states Shabbat 33b, while other texts say the time-frame could be anywhere from three to twelve months."

Similarly, Jesus uses the expressions "few blows" and "many blows" to limit postmortem punishment based on how much spiritual knowledge the condemned had in this life (Luke12:47-48). This punitive imagery, especially "few blows," implies a finite limit to postmortem judgment and therefore ultimate release. Accordingly, Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison to illustrate postmortem punishment in Gehenna, adding "Truly I tell you, you will never get out UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY (Matthew 5:25-26 par. Luke 12:57-59)." Once the debt is paid, release follows. Here Jesus uses His standard formula, "Truly I say to you," which always applies to our relationship with God, never to secular matters like beating the rap to avoid prison. A similar reference to Gehenna as a debtor's prison is implied in Jesus' parable in which the unforgiving servant is handed over to the torturers only "until he should pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34)." The prospect of postmortem release from Gehenna provides context for Jesus' declaration, "If I am lifted up from the earth , I will draw ALL people to myself (John 12:32)."

The reference to "aionios" punishment" in Matthew 25:46 must be interpreted in the light of this teaching. Sinners remain in "aionios" punishment only as long as they refuse to repent. Remember, "aionios" need not mean "eternal," as various NT examples demonstrate.
 
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Berserk

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After the Book of Revelation, the next 2 Christian Apocalypses illustrate the early Christian apocalyptic belief in soul retrievals from Hell, namely the Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD) and Sibylline Oracles II: 331-335 (150 AD). Both prophetic works envision the scene when deceased saints first enter God's presence in Heaven and understandably inquire about what God can do to save their loved ones in Hell. God responds to their intercessory prayers by promising a mission of soul retrievals of their loved ones from Hell to Heaven. Both prophetic works illustrate the NT mindset of a divine pure unconditional love that never abandons anyone in Hell.
 
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Diamond72

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So God can wait indefinitely long until the damned exercise their free will to choose the path of spiritual maturation and ultimate reconciliation with God with the assistance of the Spirit of God.
2 Peter 3:9 (New International Version): "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
 
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Light of the East

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One standard anti-universalist argument can be summarily dismissed--the argument that universalism trivializes the urgency of embracing the Gospel. Does the prospect of spending long periods of Hell time in unimaginable conscious torment trivialize the Gospel? Please!

Back in 2008 I experienced a very small taste of this chastisement and wrote about it in my book:

THERE IS HELL TO AVOID

In online discussions with those believing in eternal hell, I have constantly received the comment “So you believe there is no hell?” It is often expressed with what can be seen as a fair amount of sarcastic indignation. This accusation is not in line with traditional belief in Apokatastasis.

[For some, perhaps many, the return of Christ Jesus in glory will ignite a gehennic conflagration in the depth of their souls There is Hell to Avoid!. Imprisoned in their egoism and malice, they will hate the Son and with all their might will attempt to extinguish the love born in their hearts. And so they will burn. They will know the torment of hell, a torment of love, guilt, and self-condemnation. Guiding Bulgakov’s reflections here are the homilies of St Isaac the Syrian, which he knew in Russian translation. He refers to the following passage several times:

I say that those tormented in gehenna are struck by the scourge of love. And how bitter and cruel is this agony of love, for, feeling that they have sinned against love, they experience a torment that is greater than any other. The affliction that strikes the heart because of the sin against love is more terrible than any possible punishment. It is wrong to think that gehenna are deprived of God’s love. Love is produced by knowledge of the truth, which (everyone is in agreement about this) is given to all in general. But by its power love affects human beings in a twofold manner: It torments sinners, as even here a friend sometimes causes one to suffer, and it gladdens those who have carried out their duty. And so, in my opinion, the torment of gehenna consists in repentance. Love fills with its joys the souls of the children on high. (Quoted in Bride, p. 466; emphasis mine)[1]

This is but one of many quotes of the early fathers you can find which declare that for the wicked there will be suffering. Its intensity will correspond to the degree of sin with which the soul has pleasured itself in this life. This is the Orthodox faith and eschatology. There is no place called hell. There is something far worse for the sinful–the very presence of God which strips away every lie, every self-delusion, and every falsehood.

I know this personally because I was given a minuscule taste of it after the death of my first wife. I had spent years being driven by Christian fear-mongers who threatened me with eternal fire if I did not believe correctly and did not win souls to Christ. One even went as far as to say that nothing was more important than serving Christ, even one’s own family. In the grip of this brainwashed farce of a religion, I became driven and self-righteous. I was sure I had the correct religion, and since my family didn’t share my views, I was cold and indifferent to them. I gave more time to my church and its activities than to them, desperately working to be sure God loved me and would receive me into His Kingdom rather than toss me into hell. At Thanksgiving and Christmas, I was a judgmental boor, constantly badgering people about “getting right with God” so they could go to heaven. While the message was technically correct, the insensitive way I clubbed people over the head with it was not.

It was only after Karen died that I was brought one night to see what a jerk I had become. At the urging of two friends who were Carmelite nuns, I went back to a monastery I had visited before, wondering if the life of a monk was now God’s plan for the rest of my life. On my last night of a three month stay, I had an interior illumination which shook me to my core. In this illuminated moment, with clarity I remembered my poor wife, sitting alone upstairs, watching TV, without her husband there to be with her. Every night I came home, made dinner, and went downstairs to spend hours on the computer. For the first time I clearly realized how selfish this was. The knowledge of this truth was like waves of fire raining down on my conscience. I cannot begin to adequately describe in words the agony of this knowledge, but fire is a good description. That is exactly what it felt like. There was nowhere to run or hide. All I could do was weep and beg God to forgive me for what I had done. All pretense of being a good Christian was stripped away in the raw, naked truth of how selfish I had been. True Christian, self-giving love would have put aside my desires and would have given my time to Karen.

Believe me, if I could make you feel what I felt that night, you would run to your church and fall on your knees to beg God to forgive whatever sin has you in its grip with its false delights. For the deeply wicked, I cannot begin to imagine what they face when the stand in the presence of the One who is Truth. Every petty tyrant will see himself not as the bold warrior or great defender of his country he fancied himself to be, but as a murderer, thief, and beast. Every fornicator, adulterer, and sexually impure person will see the truth about himself and how he simply used others for his pleasure. It will be agonizing beyond any earthly description to face this raw truth.

Yes, there is hell, but the good news for all is that it is not just raw punishment or vengeful justice, but is designed to reform the sinner, to free him from his lusts, to change his very person into the likeness of Christ. St. Athanasius said, “God became man so that man might become god.”[2]Because of sin, the process of becoming deified is a long, arduous, and sometimes quite painful one. It can be carried out here, with difficulty and pain, or in the next age, with a suffering that anyone who tasted even a small bit of it, would run from, casting himself into the arms of Christ.

The Fram Oil Filter Corporation ran a television ad years ago in which the punch line was “You can pay me now. . . or you can pay me later.” In the ad, a mechanic delivered this line, standing in front of a disassembled automobile engine. The idea was simple. Pay now for the filter and protect your engine or pay later for a complete engine overhaul when it fails, which will be far more expensive to your wallet than a few dollars for a Fram filter now.

In Matthew 5:19–26, Jesus is teaching about sin and judgment. He ends this section of the Sermon on the Mount with this warning: “Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.”



[1] Kimmel, “Hell as Universal Purgatory,” Para. 2–3
[2] Athanasius, “On the Incarnation.”
 
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Light of the East

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Rather than John concealing secretively a belief in everyone including Satan being saved, he shows that some hate God more than they love comfort. Their enjoyment of their hatred for God exceeds any other sensation.

And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain And blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works. (Rev. 16:10,11)

Like thier leader Satan their opposition to God is without limit. Though the agony of punishment is excruciating they prefer it
to the prospect of acknowledeging the righteous authority of God. This and a couple other verses are a testimony to a creature of
God in the grip of infinite unreconcilable revolt against God.

If that one awful passage was not enough, the theme is given to us twice more.

And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory. (v.9)

"They did not repent"
basically means they did not have any change of their minds whatsoever.

And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, came down out of heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague of it is exceedingly great. (v. 21)

If you compare this with other places where men did have a change of attitude towards God in the face of judgment, it
appears John shows us those for whom there is hope and those for whom there is none.

Revelation 11:13 - And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and seven thousand men were killed in the earthquake, and the rest became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Previously these exchanged gifts in celebration that God's two prophets were killed. And they watched eagerly to be assured
that they would not be raised from the dead.

And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations see their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not allow their corpses to be placed in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 11:9,10)

Compare the eventual repentance of these ones to the latter for whom absolutely nothing can change their hearts of rebellion.
I think the contrast is purposeful. We have to resign ourselves to the fact that some will not repent but follow Satan thier leader
by choice into eternal punishment.

So what you are saying is that God, who foreknows all, knowing that mankind would fall into sin and thus billions would be sentenced to eternal, horrific torment, went ahead with creation anyway, right? Which means, of course, that if God KNEW this would happen, and not needing to create anything (being absolutely perfect and without need of any kind) went ahead with the creation, then it was His will from the very beginning to create beings that would suffer forever, right?

It was His will to create beings for no other purpose than to suffer.

And that is the God who is love?
 
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Light of the East

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Dire punishment, suffering or death, may be a motive to repent, like "no atheists in foxholes",

Not a good motive at all. This is the kind of thinking that infested the men like Jonathan Edwards, Charles Grandison Finney, and that whole ilk of people. And you know what? Most of their coverts fell away after a while.
But God Clearly shows that after a person dies, that's it. So be afraid of the One Who Judges all sin and be afraid of the penalty of sin now, before it is too late. The penalty for sin is death, and after that judgment. No chance is ever given after death - that concept that there is after death a chance to repent, is bald heresy and many souls are lost because of it, no matter how many believe it is possible or who. Satan himself may even appear as Jesus or as an angel of light, as he did to tempt eve, and satan himself will convince many to sin , as he did trick eve, but once someone dies, they cannot repent.

And your proof of this is where?
 
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Light of the East

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This does not mean ethinical Israel, but the spiritual Israel, the seed of Israel accorgind to Abraham's covenant.

Romans 9 6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In another place it is written, that not all Israel that came of ouf Egypt was Israel.

So Paul means that all spiritual Israel will be saved.

The other verses you posted, I don't see where you getting universalism from.

From three sources: The Bible. The Fathers of the Church. Philosophy

And if I'm wrong...well what does it matter, I'm going to Heaven anyway.

Why don't you ask those who are suffering excruciating pain right now as they are being chastised and cleansed of their sins? You seem to forget the warnings of Jesus and Paul that we are going to reap what we sow here on earth, and the wicked are going to reap a terrible harvest of pain and suffering for their sins.

If you say hell is temporary, there is no verse in Bible which supports this, but there is many that say hell is eternal.

There is no verse in the Bible that speaks of an eternal hell. That was invented by the Roman Catholic Church to make people behave.

There's a reason God calls us to repentance in Christ. God is just so every sin must be punished. For universalism to be true, Christ must have paid for every sin for every human being that ever lived and if that is the case, no one will ever go to hell and no one is there as all the punishment for sin was paid by Christ. But we already know that people are in hell, and many more will go there because wide is the road that leads to destruction. Therefore, we know that Christ has not paid for every sin of every single person.

Read Romans 5:18-19. Read it again. And again. And again. Until it sinks in that Christ has saved all. All have been made sinners by the one deed of Adam, and all have been forgiven and made righteous by the one deed of Christ.

Universalism is a false gospel.

Universalism is the only good news there is. Maybe you wouldn't think this way if you were a pagan who lived and died without ever hearing of Christ. Funny how those who rest in their assurance of salvation are so uncaring about the billions who never heard of the Gospel or Christ. Is that love on their part?
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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There is no verse in the Bible that speaks of an eternal hell.
Matthew 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Read Romans 5:18-19. Read it again. And again. And again. Until it sinks in that Christ has saved all. All have been made sinners by the one deed of Adam, and all have been forgiven and made righteous by the one deed of Christ.
The Bible repeatedly states that some will be in hell. In the greater context of the Bible, it is clear that some people will not be in heaven, but they will be separated from God in hell (Rev. 20:11-15; Mt. 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:9). For instance, consider Judas. Jesus said of Judas: “It would have been good for that man if he had not been born” (Mt. 26:24). If Judas would have been saved in the end, then it would have been better for him to be born! Earlier in Romans, Paul refers to those who “perish” without the law (2:12). Later in the letter, he writes that some of his Jewish brothers will be “accursed” (9:3). Clearly, Paul did not believe that all people would be saved.

Context is important. In Romans 5:17, we read that we need to “receive” this grace, in order for it to count for us. Paul spends most of Romans 5:12-19 showing the similarities between Adam and Jesus. In this passage, Paul is arguing that we are either “in Adam” or “in Christ. If we are “in Adam,” we receive death. If we are “in Christ,” we receive life. Therefore, when Paul writes “all men” in verse 18, he is referring to all those who are saved by Jesus

Universalists only have one verse they hold onto (Romans 5:18) and even that verse they twist. Next time, look at the whole passage, instead of just picking one verse.


Universalism is the only good news there is.
Gospel is the only good news there is.
The atonement is limited because people go to hell. Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, "Many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and I will say to them, 'Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you.'" Jesus talked more about hell then He did about heaven. We know that hell is a reality, and we know people go there and perish forever.
 
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Light of the East

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Matthew 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

That's not what it says in the Greek, which is the language in which the Scriptures were written.

Matthew 25: 46 "And, these, shall go away, into, age–abiding, correction, (aionios kolasis) but, the righteous, into, age–abiding, life." (Rotherham's Emphacized Bible & Young's Literal Translation). You are using corrupted Western texts such as the KJV and the Douay-Rhiems, which came from Lation mistranslations.



2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Same thing here. Proper Greek translation will not allow for this translation. The verse says, in the Greek, "age-lasting ruin." Of this ruin, it is a ruin, or a destruction, if you will, of the passions of the flesh that lead to sin. This is the same as found in 1 Corinthians 3 where it speaks of the fire of God which burns away the wood, hay, and stubble. The things that are worthless.
  1. for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Again, that is not what the Greek says. That is wretchedly wrong Latin translations. The Greek word βασανισμός basanismos carries the following meaning:

"a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal." This is what the Judgment Seat is all about - a testing of our lives and a purifying by the fires of God's love, which burns away all sin and dross to make us fit for the Kingdom.
The Bible repeatedly states that some will be in hell. In the greater context of the Bible, it is clear that some people will not be in heaven, but they will be separated from God in hell (Rev. 20:11-15; Mt. 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:9). For instance, consider Judas. Jesus said of Judas: “It would have been good for that man if he had not been born” (Mt. 26:24). If Judas would have been saved in the end, then it would have been better for him to be born! Earlier in Romans, Paul refers to those who “perish” without the law (2:12). Later in the letter, he writes that some of his Jewish brothers will be “accursed” (9:3). Clearly, Paul did not believe that all people would be saved.

More of the same. Bad translations and complete misunderstanding of what is being said. For instance, Paul did not say that some of his Jewish brothers will be accursed. The word translated "accursed" is "anathema" and it means to be turned over to God. Once again, Western translators, who were biased in their understanding because they were under the influence of being raised as Roman citizens, made this a legal and punitive word rather than seeking the true meaning.


Context is important. In Romans 5:17, we read that we need to “receive” this grace, in order for it to count for us. Paul spends most of Romans 5:12-19 showing the similarities between Adam and Jesus. In this passage, Paul is arguing that we are either “in Adam” or “in Christ. If we are “in Adam,” we receive death. If we are “in Christ,” we receive life. Therefore, when Paul writes “all men” in verse 18, he is referring to all those who are saved by Jesus.

Nope. Just like Protestants twist verses to mean that the Eucharist is to be understood "spiritually." In the case of Romans 5:17, the tense of the verb is wrong in your translation:

"for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ."

Paul is speaking in the present tense about those who are in the act of receiving this grace. Yet this does not deny that down the road, others, in fact ALL MANKIND, shall eventually receive God's mercy. Several other verses state this quite clearly: 1 Corinthians 15: 23-28 speaks of the order of this salvation, with the end being that all shall be in subjection to God through Christ.


Universalists only have one verse they hold onto (Romans 5:18) and even that verse they twist. Next time, look at the whole passage, instead of just picking one verse.

Not true. We have more than enough verses to show that the overall theme of the Bible is the restoration of all things. Hellists, on the other hand, have nothing other than bad translations which are not true to the Greek of the original texts.

Gospel is the only good news there is.

Not much good news if the majority of people wind up in eternal torment.
The atonement is limited because people go to hell. Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, "Many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and I will say to them, 'Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you.'" Jesus talked more about hell then He did about heaven. We know that hell is a reality, and we know people go there and perish forever.

Depart where? See? This is one of the problems with hellists. They make assumptions. You assume that depart from me means to go to a place of eternal torment. Every time you see the word "fire" in the Bible, you assume fires of hell. Such presuppositions keep you from seeing what is really there.
 
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Light of the East

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Why would someone, who ultimately rejected God, want to be with him? Food for thought.

Because they don't know what they are rejecting. I will ask you this: why would anyone, who being freed from the lies of this world, the lies of the devil, and seeing the lovely Lord Jesus, not want Him?

You forget that we are blinded by sin, by false teachers, by our own corrupt natures, etc. If I had seen clearly the peace and joy that I enjoy now as a Christian when I was doing drugs and fornication, I would have changed my mind in a heartbeat. I was looking in all the wrong places for the good which is relationship with Christ, but no one showed it to me for a long, long time.
 
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RileyG

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Because they don't know what they are rejecting. I will ask you this: why would anyone, who being freed from the lies of this world, the lies of the devil, and seeing the lovely Lord Jesus, not want Him?

You forget that we are blinded by sin, by false teachers, by our own corrupt natures, etc. If I had seen clearly the peace and joy that I enjoy now as a Christian when I was doing drugs and fornication, I would have changed my mind in a heartbeat. I was looking in all the wrong places for the good which is relationship with Christ, but no one showed it to me for a long, long time.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. It’s appreciated
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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You are using corrupted Western texts such as the KJV and the Douay-Rhiems, which came from Lation mistranslations.
I'm using ESV which is one of the best and most accurate English translations. The ESV is an “essentially literal” translation that seeks, as far as possible, to reproduce the precise wording of the original text and the personal style of each Bible writer. As such, its emphasis is on “word-for-word” correspondence, at the same time taking full account of differences in grammar, syntax, and idiom between current literary English and the original languages. Thus it seeks to be transparent to the original text, letting the reader see as directly as possible the structure and exact force of the original. The ESV retains theological terminology—words such as grace, faith, justification, sanctification, redemption, regeneration, reconciliation, propitiation—because of their central importance for Christian doctrine and also because the underlying Greek words were already becoming key words and technical terms among Christians in New Testament times.

Matthew 25: 46 "And, these, shall go away, into, age–abiding, correction, (aionios kolasis) but, the righteous, into, age–abiding, life." (Rotherham's Emphacized Bible & Young's Literal Translation). You are using corrupted Western texts such as the KJV and the Douay-Rhiems, which came from Lation mistranslations.
If we look into original Greek, we have the words 'kolasin' and 'aionon'. 'Kolasis' comes from the word 'kolazo' which means punishment/torment. The usage of the word 'kolasis' - chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. kólasis (from kolaphos, "a buffeting, a blow") – properly, punishment that "fits" (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirking one's duty (cf. WS at 1 Jn 4:18).
Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment.

'Aionon' comes from the word 'aion' which means eternal/everlasting. Usage of the word 'ainios' - age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

So the translation 'eternal punishment' is accurate.

Now show me the text where it says that the hell is temporary.
Hell cannot be temporary. Either Christ is your Saviour who has been judged in your place and has fully paid for your sins (meaning you will no longer have any sin, because of righteousness of Christ, thus there is not one sin to be judged on you and you will not go to hell) or Christ is not your Saviour and you will pay for the sin for eternity. Please go to the cross and think/study and pay what Jesus has done. He is the perfect substitute for sins of every believer, not just partial - that would not save anybody.

Universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

The Bible is very clear in that there is only way and one path to eternal salvation with God the Father – and that one way and one path is only through His Son Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross.

It is very easy to want to fall for the doctrine of Universalism since no one wants to see any of their unsaved loved ones end up in a place called hell for all of eternity.

But this is how God has the big picture set up, and we cannot try and change it just because we do not like this kind of extreme outcome for the people who will refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour.

To try and take out the doctrine of hell and replace it with the doctrine of Universalism where every single person is going to be eventually saved has to be one of Satan’s greatest traps he has ever set. If you can believe in this false doctrine, then you will never have to find and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour, and if He is not your Lord and Saviour, then you will receive not mercy, but justice.
 
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ozso

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Why would someone, who ultimately rejected God, want to be with him? Food for thought.
The idea is they'll have the same experience Paul who rejected Christ had on the road to Damascus, when they see Christ in his full glory.
 
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JulieB67

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2) The eternally open gates of the heavenly New Jerusalem, which lacks a literal sun, moon, and Temple, imply traffic coming and going (21:15; cp. 21:22-23). But coming and going for what purpose--on what mission? The answer is determined by who is "outside" the gates: "Outside (the gates) are the dogs, sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who practices falsehood (22:15)." Being "outside" the gates means that precisely this list of sinners is confined to "the lake of fire (21:8)." Nothing unclean an enter the Holy City. So the damned who are retrieved must "wash their robes" and be spiritually healed by leaves of the Tree of Life: "The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations (22:2, 14)." Thus, the wicked nations are retrieved from the lake of fire where the Devil is confined 'into the ages of the ages (20:10)." Precedent in this period for such soul retrievals from Hell is established by 2 other early Christian apocalypses (Apocalypse of Peter 14; Sibylline Oraces II:331-335). Thus, we can understand why C. S. Lewis says, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside" and why Christ says, "I have the keys of Death and Hell (Rev. 1:18)."
The thing is is that the Lake of Fire is most definitely the "second death" anything thrown in will be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) They will not burn for an eternity but there's no coming back from this. It is eternal destruction. The former things will pass away, including hell and death.


The scriptures in Revelation 22 are just reiterating what will happen and those who will be in the city and those who won't.

Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

This is being spoken in the present tense.
 
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Berserk

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The thing is is that the Lake of Fire is most definitely the "second death" anything thrown in will be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) They will not burn for an eternity but there's no coming back from this. It is eternal destruction. The former things will pass away, including hell and death.


The scriptures in Revelation 22 are just reiterating what will happen and those who will be in the city and those who won't.

Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

This is being spoken in the present tense.
John's pattern is first death, then first resurrection, 2nd death, then 2nd resurrection, resurrection out of the lake of fire. This hope is celebrated in the vision of 5:13, where every human soul is worshiping God and Jesus. The wicked dead are not spared torment, but are empowered to make the right godly choice and be redeemed.
 
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