Infallible Authority Of The Church.

[dzheremi]

It would be better if your reply dealt with what I wrote rather than entering into a bit of sarcasm with no substance.

So is that a no? Or a yes? I don't understand this as a reply. Did Pope Leo II err in condemning his predecessor for having taught wrongly or not?

That's the thing with Papal infallibility: it only takes one guy to disagree with another guy, and the whole system is revealed to be a massive house of cards. And in reality, it is not historically uncommon to find such disagreement. You see that over the filioque clause, for instance, in that it spent several centuries being alternately embraced and not-embraced before eventually coming to be seen and treated as mandatory. Kinda weird, if you're supposed to have infallible popes who will never err in declaring matters of faith and morals because God supposedly made it so they can't.

 

[BobRyan]

I see, so you think of your church as being outside of and separated from the Catholic Church.

How in the world would that not be the case?

 

[AlightSeeker]

I praise the Lord. He does not leave us as orphans but loves us. There is only one path alone. Are we walking in it? or are we stumbling around in the darkness not seeing what we do?

John 14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Father Revealed

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

The Answered Prayer

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you [c]ask anything in My name, I will do it.

Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Indwelling of the Father and the Son

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and [f]manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

The Gift of His Peace

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the [g]Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because [h]I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

29 “And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

 

[dzheremi]

I see, so you think of your church as being outside of and separated from the Catholic Church.

No. I think of "catholic" as an adjective, not a noun, just as it is used in the Creed written by our father (and twentieth Pope!) HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic. We are catholic, but we are not in communion with your Church or any of the Chalcedonian churches.

This is really a silly word game. If I asked you if you believed the Roman Catholic Church to be orthodox, you would say yes.

 

[BobRyan]

My friend, I need to share something. Last night when I was talking I felt foolish. I repented as you saw. I felt like I failed the Lord. But I humbled myself and apologized to you folks. I woke up today and realized the problem. I did indeed fail him. Now if this isn't proof of the Lord leading me then I don't what is. I share this for our benefit. To edify us all.

God's Word says "where words are many - sin is not absent" Prov 10:19 --

We must all weigh our words very carefully.

If I make many posts and find that almost nothing that I have posted is useful to me to post again as the remaining still-the-point answer to some oft-repeated objections , then I would need to re-evaluate just what it is that I am posting since apparently I myself am not finding my own posts to be that useful in such a scenario.

Jesus knew a great many things of the errors in thinking and speaking that were deeply rooted in those around Him , yet He did not accuse them all of all that He knew about them. He only spoke what was right for the moment. HE is an example for us all.

 

[BobRyan]

papal infallibility means only that a pope, when speaking ex cathedra, has the chrism of infallibility for the statement he makes ex cathedra.

No Pope that I know of ever used the "ex cathedra" pronouncement -- and in fact it was not even "an argument" until formulated in the 19th century.

"This doctrine, defined dogmatically at the First Vatican Council of 1869–1870 in the document Pastor aeternus"

 

[AlightSeeker]

We must walk worthy of our great calling. Just as the body submits the Lord so should we as individuals do the same. We submit to Him and each other in love. He is the Lord not us. We must obey Him.

1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

The Need for Self-Discipline​

24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a nocrown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

 

[AlightSeeker]

God's Word says "where words are many - sin is not absent" Prov 10:19 --

We must all weigh our words very carefully.

If I make many posts and find that almost nothing that I have posted is useful to me to post again as the remaining still-the-point answer to some oft-repeated objections , then I would need to re-evaluate just what it is that I am posting since apparently I myself am not finding my own posts to be that useful in such a scenario.

Jesus knew a great many things of the errors in thinking and speaking that were deeply rooted in those around Him , yet He did not accuse them all of all that He knew about them. He only spoke what was right for the moment. HE is an example for us all.

.amen

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible can certainly be used to show that certain traditions are false.

A great example of Christ doing that very thing is found in Mark 7 - (which I see you still refuse to quote or discuss.. How "instructive" for the objective unbiased readers)

The best example of that is the false tradition of sola scriptura

This is where you would have needed to show Christ condemning his sola scriptura testing example in Mark 7 or where Luke condemned the "sola scriptura test" in Acts 17:11 that you are also still skimming past.

Why not make a compelling case for the assertions you suggest?

 

[AlightSeeker]

God's Word says "where words are many - sin is not absent" Prov 10:19 --

We must all weigh our words very carefully.

If I make many posts and find that almost nothing that I have posted is useful to me to post again as the remaining still-the-point answer to some oft-repeated objections , then I would need to re-evaluate just what it is that I am posting since apparently I myself am not finding my own posts to be that useful in such a scenario.

Jesus knew a great many things of the errors in thinking and speaking that were deeply rooted in those around Him , yet He did not accuse them all of all that He knew about them. He only spoke what was right for the moment. HE is an example for us all.

Peter said that he who speaks should do so conveying the word of God. In all this noise where is the word in our hearts and our words?

 

[AlightSeeker]

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that [a]your joy may be full.

Fellowship with Him and One Another​

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[AlightSeeker]

This is very hard. I feel like one wrong step and I'll lose favor with the Lord. I ask him to keep this in my heart and mind always and not to let me wander from his commands. We are making it hard on ourselves and each other. Holiness isnt easy but its reward is great. We must edify oneanother and not tear each other down, and not speak wickedness. Anything not edifying isn't good. We are commanded to edify each other. We edify ourselves in this as well.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

First of all, we are in conformity with the more general Orthodox opinion (I believe also shared by the Eastern Orthodox Chalcedonians, even) that the 'rock' spoken of by Christ was a description of St. Peter's faith, not a promise made to St. Peter himself. I have heard my own priest talk about this over the Agape meal, on a few different occasions.

Second of all, nothing that you have presented above implies infallibility to anyone who doesn't have to defend the doctrine of Papal infallibility in the first place, so don't try to drag my Church into your Church's mess, thank you. We do not share in your ecclesiology, as I just explained a little bit ago to the other guy who asked about the Coptic Orthodox Church. Saying "We do not believe that we teach anything erroneous" is not the same as claiming "We are divinely protected from having any errant leadership." Consider this: the same St. Peter to whom Christ addressed the words in your first quote would famously go on to deny Jesus three times before His crucifixion. Where was his 'infallibility' then? Or is denying Christ somehow not a matter of faith and morals?

The first paragraph of your reply is irrelevant because the quoted verse is about the Church never being overcome by the gates of hell. I did not raise it to have a fight about saint Peter.

The second paragraph in your reply is caught in the forest not being seen for the trees that block your vision. The question is not about some specific person being infallible, I do not think anyone things of any human being (Christ excepted) infallible. It is in fact about the Church being infallible, which is the topic of this thread, perhaps you forgot what the topic is.

So, how about you go back and reply according to what is written instead of writing according to a mistaken view.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

"The extermination of heretics"

Clearly that is no dogma.

 

[AlightSeeker]

Whoever does not gather scatters. Do not fight against the Lord.

Luke 11:16 Others, testing Him, sought from Him a sign from heaven. 17 But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls. 18 If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub. 19 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20 But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. 22 But when a stronger than he comes upon him and overcomes him, he takes from him all his armor in which he trusted, and divides his [g]spoils. 23 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Did Pope Leo II err

Probably not, he isn't infallible you know, and you're playing games rather than dealing with history. Pope Honorius was no heretic, he did not promote Monothelitism, he was not a believer in nor a teacher of Monothelitism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No. I think of "catholic" as an adjective, not a noun, just as it is used in the Creed written by our father (and twentieth Pope!) HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic. We are catholic, but we are not in communion with your Church or any of the Chalcedonian churches.

This is really a silly word game. If I asked you if you believed the Roman Catholic Church to be orthodox, you would say yes.

Exactly you are playing word games; I wrote about the Catholic Church, I did not attempt to exclude Coptic Christians, nor Orthodox Christians even though I have strong disagreements with some of their theological errors and heresies.

 

[AlightSeeker]

The Lord came riding a lowly donkey not a horse. We must be like him. Let's not turn his house into a den of theives.


Matthew 21:6 So the disciples went and did as Jesus commanded them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt, laid their clothes on them, [c]and set Him on them. 8 And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying:

“Hosanna to the Son of David!
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’
Hosanna in the highest!”

10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, “Who is this?”

11 So the multitudes said, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.”

Jesus Cleanses the Temple
12 Then Jesus went into the temple [d]of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’ ”

14 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. 15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were [e]indignant 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”

And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read,

‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise’?”

17 Then He left them and went out of the city to Bethany, and He lodged there.

 

[BobRyan]

This is very hard. I feel like one wrong step and I'll lose favor with the Lord. I ask him to keep this in my heart and mind always and not to let me wander from his commands. We are making it hard on ourselves and each other. Holiness isnt easy but its reward is great. We must edify oneanother and not tear each other down, and not speak wickedness. Anything not edifying isn't good. We are commanded to edify each other. We edify ourselves in this as well.

God is not so easily turned aside - consider 1 John 2:1
"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

 

[BobRyan]

No. I think of "catholic" as an adjective, not a noun, just as it is used in the Creed written by our father (and twentieth Pope!) HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic. We are catholic, but we are not in communion with your Church or any of the Chalcedonian churches.

Which is exactly why all of us sign on to the Nicene Creed "And [we believe] in one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church."

So not unsurprising to find this "Faith Statement" which we must all agree to - to post here -

CF Statement of Faith

www.christianforums.com

"...And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)​

the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)​

the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)​

Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)​

Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)​

Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)​

holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)​

catholic*, (Mark 16:15)​

and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)​

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)​

​

Notes​

* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.​

==============================

In short - ALL of us had to agree to that to post here.

I did not attempt to exclude Coptic Christians, nor Orthodox Christians even though I have strong disagreements with some ...

But as noted above - the statement is taken to be very very generic in terms of the meaning "catholic" as everyone has signed on to it.


================ The "original Nicene Creed" is the one in 325

from: What is the Nicene Creed of A.D. 325 and A.D. 381?

Nicene Creed A.D. 325​

​

"We believe in one God, the father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.​

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father, Light of light, Very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate and was made man; He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven, from there He shall come to judge both the quick and the dead; and in the Holy Spirit.[4]"​

That one is even easier for all to sign up for -- since it does not require all the nuance for the word "catholic".