What is pulling America Apart?

[RDKirk]

The NSA can download one's personal data on their computer, record and/or transcribe one's phone calls, texts, or emails without a warrant.

That's not practically true. By nature of electronic media, the NSA does "vacuum" all broadcast data, but they can't retrieve data particular to any US individual (which includes legal immigrants and US persons outside the country) without a warrant. At the point their retrieval will reveal specific identification information, such as name or SSN, they must first get a warrant.

And the NSA doesn't just "browse" data (too much data, too few analysts), but makes searches according to specific criteria.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Since this thread focuses on the problems on each side...and inevitably becomes a finger pointing contest....I'm going to take a slight turn, and suggest something that each side can do to actually make a long term change to make the US more to your liking if not outright help achieve some significant ideological gains...

To the right of the aisle....abandon the notion that corporate regulation and market regulation are inherently bad things. Most on the right are fairly aware of the connection between big pharma the explosion of the trans movement and "queer theory". Consider then how a strong regulatory body that insisted upon studying the long term effects of testosterone on prepubescent girls could severely pump the brakes on that "movement" if not bring it to a screeching halt altogether. I understand that not all regulation is good...but it's definitely not all bad either. Fundamentally, the idea that these enormous and extremely wealthy companies that are making technological advances undreamed of 30 years ago aren't going to cause massive and dramatic shifts in culture and society is absurd.

For the left...I know that many have been sold on the idea that "everything is political" or sometimes phrased as "the personal is political and political is personal"...but these cliches are only true if you make them so, and that's a bad idea. Why? Because it's tiresome and annoying. I've seen multiple posts from people on the left suggesting that the right had somehow subverted the term "social justice warrior" and later "woke" into pejorative labels with negative connotations. I'm going to let you in on a secret though....it wasn't the right that did this, it was the sjws and the woke. Nobody likes being spoken down to, nobody wants someone moralizing into their ear everyday...and by making everything political, that's essentially what the sjws and woke did. This becomes tiresome and annoying fast. Sure, the right poked fun at the left with jokes and memes....but those wouldn't work if they didn't entail something relatable. I've asked coworkers, family, and friends the "hypothetical" question "if I offered to take you to your choice of one of two parties and all I knew about them was that one is filled with sjws and the woke while the other is just people who have been canceled by the sjws and woke, which would you choose?" I've only had one person claim they'd choose the woke party (even amongst people I know vote Democrat). A sports game doesn't need to be a platform for addressing your politics. A Disney movie doesn't need your political narrative infused into it. The only successful boycott I can think of in my life has been the Bud Light boycott and that was entirely unplanned as well...a reaction to the left's persistent attempts to infuse everything with their politics. Bridging the political divide would be so much easier if the left decided to take their politics out of everything....and let people occasionally have fun without a moral lecture.

That's two pieces of advice that I think would help both sides achieve what they want while simultaneously bridging the gap somewhat between the two political aisles.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I know that but a president, house, and Congress can sidestep certain rights like the Patriot Act does.

What rights do you think the Patriot Act sidesteps?

Serious question, because I know it's faced multiple legal challenges in court but to my knowledge, hasn't been ruled unconstitutional in any if them.

Meaning, no right to due process if one is SUSPECTED of having ties to terrorist activities or terrorists.

Citation? I know that it labelled terrorists and terrorist organizations "enemy combatants" originally but I'm not sure if that designation stayed when it was renewed.

One can be held in GITMO for any length of time without being convicted of a crime, having access to a lawyer, or having a judge and jury convict you of a crime.

I thought Obama closed down Gitmo and now we outsource our torture of terrorists to foreign nations?

The NSA can download one's personal data on their computer, record and/or transcribe one's phone calls, texts, or emails without a warrant.

Ehhh....kinda. They do need a warrant to do a lot of things, and the ability to get those warrants has been rather heavily scrutinized after the FBI was found playing fast and loose with them during the Trump/Russia collusion investigation.

Fortunately, the people responsible have assured us they reformed the process and they won't do it again lol.

Our government (Republicans AND Democrats) approved that bill and it passed with no challenge from the Federal courts. Those government activities violate the rights laid out in the Constitution.

The Patriot Act has been challenged in court, on several occasions, and has withstood those challenges every time if I'm not mistaken.

So, a president by themselves can't do it but with the support of the House and Congress, they have.

Realistically, the intrusive data collection you're talking about is already done rather extensively by companies like Google and Apple and then sold to all sorts of interested parties...like the federal government.

That I don't know. I have just read that he would like to alter it. The Hill says:

In a back-and-forth during the first 2024 GOP presidential debate between candidates Vivek Ramaswamy and Chris Christie, the latter brought up previous comments from former President Trump stating he wanted to terminate portions of the Constitution to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

Well again, he can't really do that.

As a nation, we shouldn't allow this but with enough support theoretically, he can do it.

Well we don't need to speculate about what he could do....fortunately, we can take a look at what he tried to do. For example...

You may recall way back in 2018 (I think) when Democrats pretended to care about illegal immigrant children during a frenzied outrage they called "kids in cages" which was so named because Trump tried to deport the parents who had crossed illegally.....which was a law that was already in the US legal code of immigration law. He wanted to deport the parents and then send the children back to them to discourage the increasing number of illegals crossing the border. He didn't write or pass any new laws, nor did Congress, he simply prioritized the enforcement of existing laws. This was challenged in court by Democrats and he lost and had to stop the deportations.

After he was denied adequate funding for Infrastructure along the southern border....Trump tried to declare a national emergency and allocate military funding for the border infrastructure. This too was challenged in court (by Democrats) and he lost that legal battle as well.

So I'm being serious when I say that I think you're vastly overestimating what Trump is capable of pulling off even with a Republican majority in both houses.

However, if his goal is a dictatorship which he has cited as praiseworthy concerning the dictators of North Korea, Russia, and Turkey for example:

“Well, first of all, let me say that I think that Kim Jong Un, or Chairman Kim, as some people say, is looking to create a nation that has great strength economically. I think he’s very much – I talk to him a lot about it, and he’s very much into the fact that – he believes, like I do, that North Korea has tremendous economic potential like perhaps few other developing nations anywhere in the world.” (May 27, 2019)

I think that despite it ultimately failing...his attempts to open dialogue with N Korea was a good idea.

* “Kim Jong Un has been, really, somebody that I’ve gotten to know very well and respect, and hopefully – and I really believe that, over a period of time, a lot of tremendous things will happen.” (April 11, 2019)

Lol what is it about this statement you find so troubling?

Trump’s comments to Putin – “you don’t have this problem in Russia” – seem to overlook the violence with which Russia deals with reporters who don’t write what the government wants.

"You don't have this problem in Russia"

That statement lacks context. Do you have a link that provides some context?

And this is far from the only time that Trump has praised the power (and methods of retaining that power) of rogue dictators and authoritarian rulers. FAR from it.

Uh huh.

Putin’s government has a long history of cracking down on journalists who aren’t willing to toe Putin’s preferred line on, well, everything. Investigative journalist Ivan Golunov was arrested last month on drug charges – which he insists were made up – after a series of reports detailing corruption within Russian government. (An ambulance doctor who examined Golunov said that the reporter had a concussion, bruising and possible broken ribs.) Last April, investigative reporter Maxim Borodin died after falling from his fifth story apartment. (Russian officials did not pursue a criminal inquiry of Borodin’s death.)

I'm well aware of Putin’s methods.

“President Erdogan. He’s tough, but I get along with him. And maybe that’s a bad thing, but I think it’s a really good thing.” (June 29, 2019)

Again....what specifically is it about this statement that bothers you?

“Well, thank you very much. It’s my honor to be with a friend of mine, somebody I’ve become very close to, in many respects, and he’s doing a very good job: the President of Turkey.” (June 29, 2019)

“Thank you very much. It’s a great honor and privilege – because he’s become a friend of mine – to introduce President Erdogan of Turkey. He’s running a very difficult part of the world. He’s involved very, very strongly and, frankly, he’s getting very high marks.” (September 21, 2017)

“And I like President Xi a lot. I consider him a friend, and – but I like him a lot. I’ve gotten to know him very well. He’s a strong gentleman, right? Anybody that – he’s a strong guy, tough guy.” (June 30, 2019)

“President Xi, who is a strong man, I call him King, he said, ‘But I am not King, I am president.’ I said, ‘No, you’re president for life and therefore, you’re King.’ He said, ‘Huh. Huh.’ He liked that.” (April 2, 2019)

CNN

The funny thing about these statements is how insincere and interchangeable they look when you put them one right after the other.

Do you agree with Trump's statements?

I don't agree that N Korea is an economically strong developing nation.

Do you see where he may be off base in what kind of government policies he supports?

You didn't cite any policies.

Do YOU support the policies of dictatorship, assassination of members of the free press, or the slave labor camps that Kim Jon Un provides?

I think what happens in N Korea is awful. I think the possibility of ending it lies in disrupting their economic ties to China....and that's not something easily done. It's certainly not going to happen by standing there and insulting both leaders of both nations.

Do these policies go against what the Constitution protects us from? I think so. Does Trump want to eliminate some od the rights that the Constitution protects? I think so. I don't think that the Constitution protects a lifelong leadership of the country. I don't think the Constitution protects slave labor, nor do I think the Constitution protects the assassination of free journalists. So why would you seem to defend the man who praises leaders who eliminate the rights of their citizens?

You likely don't hear anything said by someone who supports free elections instead of lifelong dictatorships so that statement makes perfect sense.

Biden dismisses Uighur genocide as part of China’s ‘different norms’

President Biden is dismissing the genocide against the Uighur population in China, dubbing the mass internment a “different norm” — despite the State Department this month responding to…

nypost.com

Does this sort of statement trouble you as much?

President Biden is dismissing [COLOR=var(--wp--custom--color--link)]the genocide[/COLOR] against the Uighur population in China, dubbing the mass internment a “different norm” — despite the State Department this month [COLOR=var(--wp--custom--color--link)]responding to “atrocities”[/COLOR] in the camps, following reports of systemic rape and torture.

“I point out to him no American president can be sustained as a president, if he doesn’t reflect the values of the United States,” the US president continued. “And so the idea that I am not going to speak out against what he’s doing in Hong Kong, what he’s doing with the Uighurs in western mountains of China and Taiwan — trying to end the one China policy by making it forceful … [Xi] gets it.”

“Culturally there are different norms that each country and their leaders are expected to follow,” he continued.

 

[rambot]

Canada has a parliamentary legislative system that makes a division of power more viable over the long term. The "winner-take-all" system of the US tends both to encourage political partisanship (which the Founding Fathers attempted to avoid) and yet also tends always to winnow out the third party.

We have first past the post too

 

[timothyu]

It's really not a matter of whether a President likes someone or not. It is the military-industrial complex that determines who the enemies should be. Been that way since the end of WWII. Guaranteed profits.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That is a common misinterpretation, but no.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name,... lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Scripture doesn't say the tower was destroyed.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Ty for clearing that up. It's been awhile. I thought they were trying to reach heaven but maybe I'm thinking of an episode of South Park.

 

[Danny&Annie&theChristmas]

I stopped myself from posting this opinion in another thread because I'm curious about what Americans in America think is pulling America apart.

I am 1000% convinced that the left and the right do NOT agree on what that is. As I'm outside of it, I have my own opinions on both groups. But from SPECIFICALLY where you sit, what do you think is causing the slow melting of America's standing.


My thoughts?

Right
Mass migration
DQSH/LGBTQ issues
CRT
Economic crisis (which isn't actually an ECONOMIC crisis...it's a distribution of wealth crisis as the rich get richer and the middle and poor get left behind....still)

Left
Greed/Corporate exploitation
Racism
The removal of rights for certain classes of people
Republican degradation of national institutions.



But really, what do you guys think.

https://aztownhall.org/resources/Documents/Bridging Divides to Build Community/Stuck in the Middle - The Extremes Pulling America Apart Summary.pdf
That's a link to a boring pdf that indicates that it is the extremism that's tearing America apart. Seems boring and, frankly, the "Extreme left" in America? I'm curious who that would include....

I myself see agreement on an alarming scale in the leadership of both the "left"and "right". They present window dressing differences to their respective constituents while agreeing on core issues as an unnecessary war in Ukraine and running up an impossible deficit. The only real differences lay in the rank and file of both parties while the leadership in both sit back and play both sides against the middle.
I believe there is a centralized effort to destroy America by both party's leadership as I believe they're beholden to the Freemasons and have no intention of handing power to the individual Americans. They work to divide us all on economic, social,racial ,religious, moral grounds to keep us off balance while they harvest innocent children over the Rio Grande to satisfy their perverted lust. They infest our schools and churches taking our kids wellbeing and throwing it away along with their innocence. They do this right under our noses.

 

[childeye 2]

I myself see agreement on an alarming scale in the leadership of both the "left"and "right". They present window dressing differences to their respective constituents while agreeing on core issues as an unnecessary war in Ukraine and running up an impossible deficit. The only real differences lay in the rank and file of both parties while the leadership in both sit back and play both sides against the middle.
I believe there is a centralized effort to destroy America by both party's leadership as I believe they're beholden to the Freemasons and have no intention of handing power to the individual Americans. They work to divide us all on economic, social,racial ,religious, moral grounds to keep us off balance while they harvest innocent children over the Rio Grande to satisfy their perverted lust. They infest our schools and churches taking our kids wellbeing and throwing it away along with their innocence. They do this right under our noses.

I'd say you're correct about playing both sides against the middle. Anyway, that's the correct way to comprehend the whole point of a left/right dichotomy which is meant to denote an abstract middle. However, if we blame the leadership and not the followers, our reasoning will end up in a contradiction. The devil deceives the whole world and I believe it's a spiritual war and it's the devil that deceives people into playing both ends against the middle through cynicism/distrust of other, because it undermines love others as yourself.

 

[Danny&Annie&theChristmas]

I'd say you're correct about playing both sides against the middle. Anyway, that's the correct way to comprehend the whole point of a left/right dichotomy which is meant to denote an abstract middle. However, if we blame the leadership and not the followers, our reasoning will end up in a contradiction. I believe it's a spiritual war and it's the devil that deceives people into playing both ends against the middle through cynicism/distrust of other, because it undermines love others as yourself.

Our Lord has us as His personified presence until His return. Satan has his personified presence in the Freemasons. Our enemy is quite real and he is very well organized, financed and motivated. The Body of Christ better wake up and soon.

 

[childeye 2]

Our Lord has us as His personified presence until His return. Satan has his personified presence in the Freemasons. Our enemy is quite real and he is very well organized, financed and motivated. The Body of Christ better wake up and soon.

I don't know anything about the Freemasons. I only know what the Lord shows me according to His purpose for me.

 

[NxNW]

He doesn't have to touch the Constitution if the Congress and the Supreme Court is guaranteed to operate in his favor. Then has only to cripple the permanent Executive Bureacracy so that the career government employees cannot follow their usual practice of maintaining a homeostasis from president to president.

Throw in a team of assassins with pardons in their pockets, and you've got a dictator-for-life.

 

[timothyu]

Face it. Salesmen are more despised than slick politicians or businessmen

 

[Pommer]

To the right of the aisle....abandon the notion that corporate regulation and market regulation are inherently bad things. Most on the right are fairly aware of the connection between big pharma the explosion of the trans movement and "queer theory". Consider then how a strong regulatory body that insisted upon studying the long term effects of testosterone on prepubescent girls could severely pump the brakes on that "movement" if not bring it to a screeching halt altogether. I understand that not all regulation is good...but it's definitely not all bad either. Fundamentally, the idea that these enormous and extremely wealthy companies that are making technological advances undreamed of 30 years ago aren't going to cause massive and dramatic shifts in culture and society is absurd.

This “big pharma is driving trans-ideology to sell product” would be more impressive with some figures about how the pharmaceutical industry is raking it in by selling HRT to the 0.6% of the population who’re transgender.

 

[timothyu]

It is usually more profitable to sell parts than the actual product

 

[RDKirk]

This “big pharma is driving trans-ideology to sell product” would be more impressive with some figures about how the pharmaceutical industry is raking it in by selling HRT to the 0.6% of the population who’re transgender.

We haven't seen that data yet, I agree.

But the swiftness with which the medical industry has leaped upon this issue does raise my eyebrow.

 

[RoBo1988]

We haven't seen that data yet, I agree.

But the swiftness with which the medical industry has leaped upon this issue does raise my eyebrow.

I don't want to divert this thread from it's original intent, but you may want to check this out. It may raise the other eyebrow.

Inside the Transgender Empire

This is the great project of the transgender movement: to abolish the distinctions of man and woman, to transcend the limitations established by God and nature, and to connect the personal struggle of trans individuals to the political struggle to transform society in a radical way.

imprimis.hillsdale.edu

 

[rturner76]

That's not practically true. By nature of electronic media, the NSA does "vacuum" all broadcast data, but they can't retrieve data particular to any US individual (which includes legal immigrants and US persons outside the country) without a warrant. At the point their retrieval will reveal specific identification information, such as name or SSN, they must first get a warrant.

And the NSA doesn't just "browse" data (too much data, too few analysts), but makes searches according to specific criteria.

From my understanding, the NSA has a list of certain keywords or phrases that will trigger a recording of a said person who set the keyword or phrase in motion. Then a monitor can read the transcript of the conversation, text, or chat chain that triggered the recording program. Maybe I have been misinformed but I have been led to believe that there are buildings full of people whose sole job is to listen to people's conversations, read their texts, or track their movements on the World Wide Web. From what I understand they need a warrant to make a case stick in Federal court but they can detain and question anyone anywhere for an undetermined amount of time. provided they are taken out of the USA and not sent to any NATO nation. Cuba, they can do whatever they want including cruel and unusual punishment. Waterboarding, extended time in stress positions, and sleep deprivation are all fair game in the terrorist hunting program designed by the Federal government. As long as they say it's a matter of "national security," they pretty much have carte blanche over any law enforcement entity and the laws that they are sworn to protect.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This “big pharma is driving trans-ideology to sell product” would be more impressive with some figures about how the pharmaceutical industry is raking it in by selling HRT to the 0.6% of the population who’re transgender.

Actually, all you need is some common sense, or a basic ability to use the Googles, but ok...I'll do it for you.

Hormone Replacement Therapy Market Statistics - 2034

Hormone replacement therapy market, valued at $22.5 billion in 2023. North America contributes 25% to the global hormone replacement therapy market demand.

www.factmr.com

So a gain of 20$ billion over the next 10 years. Any other brain busters you'd like to ask me?

 

[comana]

Actually, all you need is some common sense, or a basic ability to use the Googles, but ok...I'll do it for you.

Hormone Replacement Therapy Market Statistics - 2034

Hormone replacement therapy market, valued at $22.5 billion in 2023. North America contributes 25% to the global hormone replacement therapy market demand.

www.factmr.com

So a gain of 20$ billion over the next 10 years. Any other brain busters you'd like to ask me?

Yes, there is an increasing demand from menopausal women as studies are showing immense benefits from HRT for aging women. Trans related HRT will account for a very small percentage of that gain.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Trans related HRT will account for a very small percentage of that gain.

It doesn't matter if it's 2 billion or 4 billion.

The point is it's a money maker.

And while it's cute that you want to say that menopausal women are the majority of the market....imagine if you got those menopausal women on the drugs when they were 10!

Because your menopausal women might be taking this stuff for 20-25 years....but your 10yo "trans" kid will take it for the next 40-50 years till their heart explodes.

That's 2-2.5 times as long as the menopausal women. Cha-ching!