Orthodoxy on Time

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Dumitru Stăniloae’s illuminates time as a journey on which we may grow in response to the love that God offers us, a journey towards sharing in the eternity of the perfect, interpersonal communion of the Trinity. God, in His Incarnation, shares the journey with us in Christ, so that time enters into eternity and eternity is brought into time. At every moment, we are free to choose between responding to His love or rejecting it. Time to be open to eternity; time is fulfilled when God’s eternity breaks into the temporal sequence, as happened supremely at Christ’s birth in Bethlehem, as happens also at every Eucharist. Our faith is the true rationale of time: mutual love after the image of the Trinity.
 

ArmyMatt

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Dumitru Stăniloae’s illuminates time as a journey on which we may grow in response to the love that God offers us, a journey towards sharing in the eternity of the perfect, interpersonal communion of the Trinity. God, in His Incarnation, shares the journey with us in Christ, so that time enters into eternity and eternity is brought into time. At every moment, we are free to choose between responding to His love or rejecting it. Time to be open to eternity; time is fulfilled when God’s eternity breaks into the temporal sequence, as happened supremely at Christ’s birth in Bethlehem, as happens also at every Eucharist. Our faith is the true rationale of time: mutual love after the image of the Trinity.
that’s awesome
 
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prodromos

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I thought this was going to be a theological discussion on why services start late, or why parishioners are not on time...
Me too ^_^
Alas we are often guilty of arriving late (but then we are late to leave as well)
 
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Prodigal7

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I thought this was going to be a theological discussion on why services start late, or why parishioners are not on time...
I must be new and gung ho because I like to get there a little early.
 
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The Liturgist

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Dumitru Stăniloae’s illuminates time as a journey on which we may grow in response to the love that God offers us, a journey towards sharing in the eternity of the perfect, interpersonal communion of the Trinity. God, in His Incarnation, shares the journey with us in Christ, so that time enters into eternity and eternity is brought into time. At every moment, we are free to choose between responding to His love or rejecting it. Time to be open to eternity; time is fulfilled when God’s eternity breaks into the temporal sequence, as happened supremely at Christ’s birth in Bethlehem, as happens also at every Eucharist. Our faith is the true rationale of time: mutual love after the image of the Trinity.

Ah yes, that’s lovely, and I agree. It also is consistent with my belief that God created time and being eternal, exists apart from it while being ubiquitous at all points in it, through His omnipresence, through the Holy Spirit, through His incarnation, and we acknowledge this in the prayer to the Holy Spirit at the beginning of the Hours:

“O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, Treasury of good things, and Giver of life: Come and dwell in us, and cleanse us of all impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.”

There is another similiar prayer which also states that He is present at all times, but I cannot recall where in the liturgy it is. It might even be Oriental Orthodox, but I am certain it is either EO or OO. But I can’t remember if it is in the liturgy of the Divine Office, which church it is in, etc.

Also I would note that nothing in the doctrine you shared or other Orthodox doctrines concerning time appears to contradict General Relativity, specifically the idea that space and time are essentially the same thing, with gravity being curves in spacetime caused by massive objects. Not that I am trying to mix science and theology, rather, I am merely pointing out that there is no apparent conflict (where theology completely contradicts science, it means that one or the other is wrong, and I would note that the theologies of heterodox forms of Christianity and of other religions like Islam do tend to contradict even the most basic understanding of science that was available to the ancients, for example, Muhammed’s insistence that the world was flat and that the disappearance of ships over the horizon was an optical illusion, and the Sura in the Quran where Alexander the Great travels as west as you can get, and finds the sun relaxing at an oasis, and spends a few hours chilling with the sun, before the sun has to leave to travel to the eastern end of the world so that he can begin illuminating the planet for the next day. I strongly suspect the Quran was the result of a mix of encounters with a demon impersonating the Holy Archangel St. Gabriel, who those churches on the New Calendar commemorated last week at the feast of St. Michael and the Bodiless Powers (we know for sure that “Jibreel” was either a figment of Muhammed’s imagination or a demon, since St. Gabriel would not squeeze Muhammed so that he felt unable to breathe or give him a false revelation), and the use of psychedelic substances. Perhaps massive amounts of Khat; if I recall khat grows in the Yemen where it is collected and sold to Muslims in Ethiopia and Somalia.
 
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The Liturgist

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I thought this was going to be a theological discussion on why services start late, or why parishioners are not on time...

Well that’s simply due to the oft-stated fact that Orthodox Christians do not believe in organized religion.

/rimshot

Forgive me, that’s an old joke I’m sure you’ve all heard every time something doesn’t go quite according to plan. However I would take Orthodoxy over the well-oiled machines that are the non-denominational megachurches even if our services never started on time, but rather had the same punctuality as Amtrak. Just as I would rather take Amtrak than most other forms of transportation on the routes where it operates.
 
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Chesterton

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Also I would note that nothing in the doctrine you shared or other Orthodox doctrines concerning time appears to contradict General Relativity, specifically the idea that space and time are essentially the same thing, with gravity being curves in spacetime caused by massive objects.
Right. It not only doesn't contradict, but IMO confirms. Einstein's idea of spacetime confirms the Orthodox understanding of hell, in that, the end of time will be also be the end of space, and so there will be no place apart from of the presence of God's love.
 
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Will there be "time" in the new heaven and earth?

I don’t know. I hope so, but I also hope it is different, because there are aspects of the idea of perpetual linear existence which are truly terrifying and which have frightened me as much as the secular concept of death since I was a small boy. One of my confessors, a pious Orthodox priest, characterized the perpetual linear existence I historically feared much more before becoming Orthodox as being “Hell.” My fears were not eased by the fact that mainline Protestant ministers in my youth instead of preaching doctrinal theology, focused on preaching interesting sermons on issues of morality (which nonetheless tended to avoid anything controversial, or critiques on tne immoral behavior of our society vis a vis abortion and homosexuality - this was not high moral theology of the sort one associates with our Fr. Josiah Trenham or Pope John Paul II and Dr. James Kennedy of blessed memory, but was were rather mere moralizing messages designed to be uncontroversial, to make the congregation feel better about themselves - basically these sermons being the “main event” of mainline Protestant worship except in those liturgical churches where Holy Communion waa emphasized amounted to what Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and others like him refer to as Moral Therapeutic Deism, since these were not Jeremiads about our individual and collective sins, and they lacked a strong Christological focus, and they lacked an exposition of dogmatic theology.

Recently I viewed a service of the Unitarian Universalist King’s Chapel on YouTube with a visiting preacher (this is one of the heretical churches I monitor, although there are a few that are so annoying and predictable I can’t handle monitoring them, and there is no need, since it is all the same rubbish, like Old South Church in Boston), who delivered an interesting homily on scriptural paradoxes which ironically, despite the UUA being known as something of a doctrine-free zone, even in its few remaining nominally Christian parishes like King’s Chapel (which is known for using a modified version of the Anglican BCP), and it was ironic because his homily was actually more pious and had more intellectual depth than most of the mainline Protestant sermons I was subjected to, especially in the United Methodist Church, in my youth.

So because nothing I heard in those churches ever helped with this existential dread, you cannot imagine the pure relaxation that came from reading the optimistic appraisal of what lies in store for us in Metropolitan Kallistos Ware’s book The Orthodox Way. His writing connected me with the Orthodox idea of salvation, and also with the promises in scripture, and lead me to being able to trust in God more and overcome various debilitating fears.
 
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The Liturgist

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yes-ish, and no-ish

That sounds good to me.

By the way, the more you can go into detail on this, the more soothing I expect many of us would find it, since knowledge of such things is one of the the advantages you received from going to a decent Orthodox seminary like St. Tikhon’s rather than a “prestigious” mainline seminary such as Chicago Theological Seminary or Andover (which has since merged with Newton).*

I’d also be interested to know who you think among contemporary Orthodox writers and professors is of particular expertise concerning this aspect of eschatology. And from a Patristic aspect, what you think of the Hymns on Paradise of St. Ephrem the Syrian? I have the translation of them by Sebastian Brock.

*in the negative, illusioneering sense of the word, emphasized by the British Christian pundit Simon Heffer while he was in charge of literary style at the Telegraph, although if I recall Andover at least had a good library and access to the very good library at Harvard Divinity School, which is the only thing about Harvard Divinity School that I could describe as “very good” aside from the visual aesthetics of parts of the Harvard campus, and the trolleybuses, which recently were removed.
 
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ArmyMatt

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By the way, the more you can go into detail on this, the more soothing I expect many of us would find it, since knowledge of such things is one of the the advantages you received from going to a decent Orthodox seminary like St. Tikhon’s rather than a “prestigious” mainline seminary such as Chicago Theological Seminary or Andover (which has since merged with Newton).*
on the one hand, we eternally grow into God’s likeness which is dynamic and implies time. however, we also become by grace everything God is by nature, and one of those things is timeless.

so….shrug emoji…..?
 
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The Liturgist

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on the one hand, we eternally grow into God’s likeness which is dynamic and implies time. however, we also become by grace everything God is by nature, and one of those things is timeless.

so….shrug emoji…..?

Yes, that corresponds with what Metropolitan Kallistos Ware wrote. Perhaps we might say in becoming timeless, we retain access to time but are no longer subject to the agony time imparts.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, that corresponds with what Metropolitan Kallistos Ware wrote. Perhaps we might say in becoming timeless, we retain access to time but are no longer subject to the agony time imparts.
I dunno, we’ll find out
 
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RileyG

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on the one hand, we eternally grow into God’s likeness which is dynamic and implies time. however, we also become by grace everything God is by nature, and one of those things is timeless.

so….shrug emoji…..?
Since we will be very much alive, will we be aware of time passing or am I reading too much into it?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Since we will be very much alive, will we be aware of time passing or am I reading too much into it?
I dunno, our mode of life will be transfigured in a way that’s beyond our comprehension.
 
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