Is believing/faith a work ?

[Danthemailman]

It's referring to works alone - ie, works done without fait. It's not referring to works done with faith.

It's referring to being accounted as righteous by faith "apart from works." (Romans 4:2-6)

Whatever. All you have to know is this: Faith without works is dead (James 2:26), and dead faith doesn't save anyone.

I understand that faith without works is dead and the root problem here is that it's not authentic faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14) Hence, barren of works. Authentic faith is alive in Christ and produces good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) In regard to James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

Works in this context are obedience. Are we justified by obeying God? Of course we are. Are we justified by faith if we disobey God? Of course not ... why would God want to spend eternity with someone who isn't interested in obeying him?

Faith is faith and obedience which 'follows' is works and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). We are not justified (accounted as righteous) based on the merits of our obedience/works. Yet we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:18,21,24) Obeying Him is descriptive of believers and not unbelievers, yet none of us have obeyed Him 100% of the time.

One can have faith and still disobey God. Faith alone is not enough.

Which of us have never disobeyed God at all? We are not sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, 100% of the time. Faith in Christ alone for salvation is enough because Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers and is the object of our faith. (Romans 3:24-28) Adding works to salvation through faith as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption is telling Jesus that what He did to save believers was not enough. Our faith must trust 100% in Jesus Christ for salvation or else it's a spurious faith.

 

[Brightfame52]

Of course it matters. Every word of God matters. 2Tim 3:15-18

Not when you mix works with grace, you corrupt Gods word

 

[Danthemailman]

I don't recall claiming that "faith is dead until it produces works".

Good. That's a start.

Salvation and justification begin with faith alone (Romans 3:28, Eph 2:8-9),

So at least you "initially" agree with me but then you also believe in salvation by works at the back door. So, you believe that we are merely "initially" saved by grace through faith, not works, but you ultimately believe we are also saved by works. Type 2 works salvation.

but if the believer goes on to lead of life without works - ie, a life of disobedience, sin and evil - his faith is useless and as good as dead.

Faith that produces no works at all and is characterized by disobedience, sin and evil is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) That would not be authentic faith but a bare profession of faith. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no good fruit at all were not truly converted. These are likened to bad trees that produce bad fruit.

Hence, James says no one is justified (saved) by "faith alone" (James 2:24).

"Faith alone" here equates to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) Hence, "alone." We are neither accounted a righteous nor shown to be righteous by a bare profession of faith.

Paul implies the same thing in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, when he warns believers that their sins can result in them ending up in hell.

This is not descriptive of believers/the righteous but the unrighteous. In 1 Corinthians 6:9, we read - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (This is descriptive of their lifestyle or bent of life. No repentance, no goal or effort to stop, just bring it on) 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. The unrighteous here are being contrasted with the righteous.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" (Matt 7:19)

This is descriptive of bad trees - "unbelievers." In contrast with good trees "believers." (Matthew 7:17-18)

 

[Danthemailman]

I get the message: Since James 2:24 plainly contradicts the doctrine of sola fide, the solution is to invent a nonsense interpretation of James 2:24 that supposedly renders it harmless - manifest delusion, in other words.

Only "on the surface" does James 2:24 contradict the doctrine of sola fide. The solution is to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine as I demonstrated in post #1,135.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - (fits the context)
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

If a doctrine is clearly contradicted by Scripture, wouldn't it be more sensible to abandon that doctrine and develop a doctrine that isn't contradicted by Scripture?

Justified (accounted as righteous) by works (James 2:24) clearly contradicts NOT justified (accounted as righteous) by works in (Romans 4:2-3) Something has to give. There are no contradictions in God's word. Once again, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Danthemailman]

I get the message: Since James 2:24 plainly contradicts the doctrine of sola fide, the solution is to invent a nonsense interpretation of James 2:24 that supposedly renders it harmless - manifest delusion, in other words.

If a doctrine is clearly contradicted by Scripture, wouldn't it be more sensible to abandon that doctrine and develop a doctrine that isn't contradicted by Scripture?

I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine in multiple posts in regard to James 2:24 and Romans 4:2-3. Also the term "justified" has more than one meaning in Scripture, depending on the context, as I also shared with you as well in James 2:14-24.

Now if the truth is what you are looking for then you will find it in the multiple posts that I already shared with you. If accommodating preconceived beliefs or a biased church doctrine is the only thing you are interested in then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.

 

[Doug Brents]

I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine in multiple posts in regard to James 2:24 and Romans 4:2-3. Also the term "justified" has more than one meaning in Scripture, depending on the context, as I also shared with you as well in James 2:14-24.

Now if the truth is what you are looking for then you will find it in the multiple posts that I already shared with you. If accommodating preconceived beliefs or a biased church doctrine is the only thing you are interested in then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.

Dan, you and I have gone round and round several times on this, and you have yet to accept the truth of the Word of God on this subject. So don't tell us that you have "properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion" when you refuse to accept that there is any action that man must perform that leads to his reception of salvation.

 

[Buzzard3]

Also the term "justified" has more than one meaning in Scripture, depending on the context, as I also shared with you as well in James 2:14-24.

Anywhere the term "justified" appears in the NT it means "declared righteous".

Twisting and distorting the meaning of words is symptomatic of a false doctrine.

 

[Buzzard3]

So, you believe that we are merely "initially" saved by grace through faith, not works,

No, that's not what I said. No one is "initially" saved by anything - we are saved only after they die and are declared worthy of eternal life by Christ on Judgement Day. Until that Day, we have the hope of salvation (salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses).

Accepting the gift of faith is the first step on the road to salvation.

but you ultimately believe we are also saved by works. Type 2 works salvation.

"faith without works (obedience) is dead" (James 2:26).

 

[Buzzard3]

I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine in multiple posts in regard to James 2:24 and Romans 4:2-3. Also the term "justified" has more than one meaning in Scripture, depending on the context, as I also shared with you as well in James 2:14-24.

Now if the truth is what you are looking for then you will find it in the multiple posts that I already shared with you. If accommodating preconceived beliefs or a biased church doctrine is the only thing you are interested in then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.

Actually, I think all you need to know about justification is contained in just one small verse:
Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

All God has ever wanted from us is love, expressed in obedience. That's what salvation is all about - God saving those who love him.

 

[Brightfame52]

Actually, I think all you need to know about justification is contained in just one small verse:
Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

All God has ever wanted from us is love, expressed in obedience. That's what salvation is all about - God saving those who love him.

Did Christ the Surety of His People Love God and Keep all His commandments in obedience ?

 

[Buzzard3]

Did Christ the Surety of His People Love God and Keep all His commandments in obedience ?

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

What is your response to that? Are you going to ignore what the Lord demands?

 

[Clare73]

Actually, I think all you need to know about justification is contained in just one small verse:
Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

All God has ever wanted from us is love, expressed in obedience. That's what salvation is all about - God saving those who love him.

NOT!

 

[Buzzard3]

NOT!

Why not?

 

[Clare73]

Why not?

 

[Brightfame52]

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

What is your response to that? Are you going to ignore what the Lord demands?

Did Christ the Surety of His People Love God and Keep all His commandments in obedience ?

 

[Dan2255]

So how are we saved then? Paul says it's through faith we are saved, but if faith is a work and salvation is not of works how is that possible?

Look at the fruits of the Holy Spirit. You are given the Holy Spirit once your are saved. The process is this. You hear the word preached God’s Holy Spirit makes what you hear understandable that you are lost. At which time you can chose to accept or reject. If you shoes to accept the Father gives you his Holy Spirit to abide in you. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Once you recieve the Holy Spirit he places the fruits within your heart. One of the gifts are Faith. God gives to everyone a measure of his faith. So even your faith in the Lord is a gift making it a gift and not a work you have done. Now as to how much faith the Father gives you in the beginning to be saved is less than a mustard seed. When the apostles could not cast out a demon went and asked Christ why could they not do it he replied and said if you had faith the size of a mustard seed you could say to this mountain be cast into the sea and it would be cast into the sea. The apostles were puzzled and ask who can be saved. Christ said with man this is impossible but with the father all things are possible. Many people look at the mustard seed to gage their faith but what it showed is just how little faith is required to be saved. Faith is given us through the Holy Spirit. That faith can grow by hearing the word of the Father this is not from others but from the Father. It is written those the are saved are drawn to salvavation by the Father and once faith is increase when the Father teaches you the understanding of the truth. So when truth is understood you faith will increase.

 

[Buzzard3]

Did Christ the Surety of His People Love God and Keep all His commandments in obedience ?

Did Jesus love God and keep all his commandments? Yes, he did.

What's that got to do with John 14:15?

 

[Buzzard3]

If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon

What are your qualifications in the study of ancient Greek?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Buzzard3

Yes, he did.

Then so did those He represented, they are Justified, and Righteous and Obedient before God as a Free Gift. God is well pleased with them in Him.

 

[Buzzard3]

@Buzzard3



Then so did those He represented, they are Justified, and Righteous and Obedient before God as a Free Gift. God is well pleased with them in Him.

Why does Jesus tell you to keep his commandments?

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

Will you do what Jesus asks of you - keep his commandments - or will you ignore him?