Is believing/faith a work ?

[prodromos]

@prodromos quoted @BrightFame as saying:

Brightfame52 said:
It doesnt matter what James 2:24 means,


@prodromos you have misquoted what @Brightfame52 said. Cutting it short is misrepresenting it, when the whole statement was one meaning. "It doesn't matter what x says" is a figure of speech, and part of the larger statement. He doesn't mean that what James says is unimportant.

You might want to check the rules on that.

Brightfame52 said:
It doesnt matter what James 2:24 means, Jesus is the Saviour, He saves by His Work, you deny that ?

I quoted his entire post.

 

[Buzzard3]

It doesnt matter what James 2:24 means

So you ignore any Scripture that contradicts your point of view. That's an interesting approach to discerning the truth.

Jesus is the Saviour, He saves by His Work, you deny that ?

Depends on what you mean by "He saves by His Work".

In Rev 2 and 3, Jesus judges the seven churches according to their "works" and promises eternal life to "he who overcomes" his sinful works. In Rev 3, Jesus declares certain believers "worthy" of eternal life on account of their works. Please explain.

There is obviously more to salvation than the work of Jesus ... which you will probably choose to ignore in your quest for truth.

 

[Buzzard3]

Not until you saved first

Not until we are saved by Christ can we respond in a conversion experience.

You seemed to be confused about the difference between Redemption and Salvation.

The sacrificial death of Jesus unconditionally redeemed everyone who has ever lived and who will ever live ... they didn't have to do a thing to be redeemed by the Cross. The Redemption (the Cross) made it possible for everyone to be saved.

However, not everyone will be saved, bcoz - unlike the UNCONDITIONAL justification provided by the Cross - the justification required for salvation is CONDITIONAL, as concisely expressed in James 2:24 - "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

 

[Buzzard3]

James uses the word "justify" to mean "prove to be true." (Jas 2:24).
As in, "Her fear was justified when he killed her dog."
Likewise, his faith which alone saved him proved to be true faith by his works.

Paul uses the word "justify" to mean "declared not guilty," in right standing with God's Court -- Greek definition of "justification" (dikaiosis).
As in, "Justification is by faith, apart from works (of observing the law). (Ro 3:28)
The believer is justified (declared "not guilty") by faith alone.

It's interesting that you seem to have come up with two different meanings for the same Greek word.

I think it's worth noting that "works" in Romans 3:28 seems to be referring to works alone (ie, no faith involved), whereas "works" in James 2:24 refers to obeying God (ie, faith and works).

I should think obeying God is rather important. For starters, Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
And 1John 2:3-6 says a believer who doesn't keep God's commandments doesn't "know" Christ, is a "liar" and "the truth is not on him" - in others words, a believer who is not on the road to salvation.

True faith must have works, but it is not the works of that faith which save, it is the faith apart from its works which saves.

Whatever. That would seem irrelevant and unhelpful as far as salvation is concerned. The bottom line is, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). No one is saved by faith alone, which is "dead" faith. We are saved by faith and obedience.

(Little wonder Martin Luther hated the epistle of James and wanted it removed from the NT - it destroys his erroneous "faith alone" doctrine. He wanted to get rid of the book of Revelation too - perhaps because of the faith-and-works formula described in Rev 12:17 and in Rev 14:12, where "the saints" are described as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".)

 

[Brightfame52]

So you ignore any Scripture that contradicts your point of view. That's an interesting approach to discerning the truth.

Depends on what you mean by "He saves by His Work".

In Rev 2 and 3, Jesus judges the seven churches according to their "works" and promises eternal life to "he who overcomes" his sinful works. In Rev 3, Jesus declares certain believers "worthy" of eternal life on account of their works. Please explain.

There is obviously more to salvation than the work of Jesus ... which you will probably choose to ignore in your quest for truth.

He saves by His Work means the Life He lived and the death He died for His People, that saved them.

 

[Brightfame52]

You seemed to be confused about the difference between Redemption and Salvation.

The sacrificial death of Jesus unconditionally redeemed everyone who has ever lived and who will ever live ... they didn't have to do a thing to be redeemed by the Cross. The Redemption (the Cross) made it possible for everyone to be saved.

However, not everyone will be saved, bcoz - unlike the UNCONDITIONAL justification provided by the Cross - the justification required for salvation is CONDITIONAL, as concisely expressed in James 2:24 - "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Again, not until we are saved can we believe on Christ. Both Repentance and Faith/Believing are effects of Christ saving a person.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Buzzard3

I should think obeying God is rather important.

It is, especially Christs Obedience, for it alone make's men righteous or saved Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So how important is Jesus obedience to God ?

 

[Doug Brents]

Again, not until we are saved can we believe on Christ. Both Repentance and Faith/Believing are effects of Christ saving a person.

So you are saying that we must be saved before we can be saved???? Huh???

Belief in Christ is a condition on which we are saved. If we don't believe in Jesus, we cannot be saved (John 3:16, Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38). But now you are saying that we cannot believe until after we have been saved??? What you say does not agree with Scripture, and I for one choose to believe Scripture rather than you.

 

[Doug Brents]

It is, especially Christs Obedience, for it alone make's men righteous or saved Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So how important is Jesus obedience to God ?

Without Jesus' obedience there would be no salvation for anyone.

But His obedience does not automatically make everyone he died for saved, because He died for every single soul that has ever or will ever exist. Scripture is very clear on this, and I don't understand your defiance of Scripture's truth on this matter. Man is required to respond to God in obedience in order to receive the salvation that Jesus purchased on the Cross.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you are saying that we must be saved before we can be saved???? Huh???

Belief in Christ is a condition on which we are saved. If we don't believe in Jesus, we cannot be saved (John 3:16, Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38). But now you are saying that we cannot believe until after we have been saved??? What you say does not agree with Scripture, and I for one choose to believe Scripture rather than you.

You must be saved before you can believe in Christ. The Gospel of Christ is hidden to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Without Jesus' obedience there would be no salvation for anyone.

But His obedience does not automatically make everyone he died for saved, because He died for every single soul that has ever or will ever exist. Scripture is very clear on this, and I don't understand your defiance of Scripture's truth on this matter. Man is required to respond to God in obedience in order to receive the salvation that Jesus purchased on the Cross.

Jesus obedience is so important, it makes people righteous, saved them.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's interesting that you seem to have come up with two different meanings for the same Greek word.

Why? That's very common, and, as far as I know, common in all languages. Certainly is in English.

@Clare73 is just showing the distinction in the two uses. No need for sly comment there.

I think it's worth noting that "works" in Romans 3:28 seems to be referring to works alone (ie, no faith involved), whereas "works" in James 2:24 refers to obeying God (ie, faith and works).

Now who's coming up with two meanings for one word? (And I'm not saying you are wrong, here. Just making a point about your criticism of her making a distinction. You didn't answer her point. You only objected to how she made the point.)

I should think obeying God is rather important. For starters, Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
And 1John 2:3-6 says a believer who doesn't keep God's commandments doesn't "know" Christ, is a "liar" and "the truth is not on him" - in others words, a believer who is not on the road to salvation.

Did someone say obeying God is not rather important?

What do you mean by, "the road to salvation". Are you saying that a believer is not already saved? Or are you saying that a believer will exhibit command-keeping?

Whatever. That would seem irrelevant and unhelpful as far as salvation is concerned. The bottom line is, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). No one is saved by faith alone, which is "dead" faith. We are saved by faith and obedience.

(Little wonder Martin Luther hated the epistle of James and wanted it removed from the NT - it destroys his erroneous "faith alone" doctrine. He wanted to get rid of the book of Revelation too - perhaps because of the faith-and-works formula described in Rev 12:17 and in Rev 14:12, where "the saints" are described as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".)

No. We are identified by obedience, not saved by obedience. Faith + Works is not a formula for salvation. James agrees with Paul; but he is making a strong point: Faith necessarily produces results.

 

[Dan2255]

So how are we saved then? Paul says it's through faith we are saved, but if faith is a work and salvation is not of works how is that possible?

The key to understanding scriptures is not to ask others for what you seek answers to. But to ask the Father for understanding.

1John 2:26

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



You see the preaching of the gospel is what’s needed so the Holy Spirit can show you need to be saved. Once your saved you no longer need someone to teach you. The Holy Spirit that you received will teach you all truth. Seek your understanding from above and not from others.

All understanding comes from the Father. The more he reveals to you the stronger your faith becomes. It is the Father’s Holy Spirit in you that molds you into the holy temple of the Father. Seek his understanding. All you get by asking others is human reasoning.

 

[Doug Brents]

You must be saved before you can believe in Christ. The Gospel of Christ is hidden to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You are putting cause and effect backwards here. You cannot be saved before you believe in Christ, because belief in Christ is one of the conditions for being saved in the first place. Yes, the Holy Spirit works in our life before we are saved to help us see the truth of the Gospel, but His working before salvation is not salvation itself.

You yourself seem to be trapped in the unbelief that 2 Cor 4:3-4 is talking about, because you refuse to accept clear Biblical truth: namely, that Jesus died for all mankind, not just a select few. When you can accept that truth, then we can start discussing these other matters more fully.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus obedience is so important, it makes people righteous, saved them.

Absolutely, but not without their accepting of that gift. Jesus' grace is not irresistible. He will not save anyone who does not come to Him in acceptance of His Gospel.

 

[Brightfame52]

You are putting cause and effect backwards here. You cannot be saved before you believe in Christ, because belief in Christ is one of the conditions for being saved in the first place. Yes, the Holy Spirit works in our life before we are saved to help us see the truth of the Gospel, but His working before salvation is not salvation itself.

You yourself seem to be trapped in the unbelief that 2 Cor 4:3-4 is talking about, because you refuse to accept clear Biblical truth: namely, that Jesus died for all mankind, not just a select few. When you can accept that truth, then we can start discussing these other matters more fully.

Hey thats how it is, a lost persons mind is blinded by satan, their nature hates God, they are spiritually dead, deaf, they need to be saved first.

 

[Brightfame52]

Absolutely, but not without their accepting of that gift. Jesus' grace is not irresistible. He will not save anyone who does not come to Him in acceptance of His Gospel.

Well, so His death saves them He died for. Duh

 

[Doug Brents]

Hey thats how it is, a lost persons mind is blinded by satan, their nature hates God, they are spiritually dead, deaf, they need to be saved first.

Ahh, so you are calling yourself a lost person who has not yet had their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit?
Good to know.

Well, so His death saves them He died for. Duh

That is not anywhere close to what I said.

 

[Clare73]

It's interesting that you seem to have come up with two different meanings for the same Greek word.

Actually, those are the two meanings of the same Greek word dikaiosis.

I think it's worth noting that "works" in Romans 3:28 seems to be referring to works alone (ie, no faith involved), whereas "works" in James 2:24 refers to obeying God (ie, faith and works).

Then you aren't understanding Ro 3:28 in the light of and agreeing with all the NT.

 

[Brightfame52]

Ahh, so you are calling yourself a lost person who has not yet had their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit?
Good to know.

That is not anywhere close to what I said.

When Christ saves a person then they will believe.