Hamas-Israel News Thread

[Vanellus]

The idea that the people of the region of Palestine owned their own homes or land and therefore weren't subject to the laws and regulations and decisions of the Ottoman Empire or British Empire is a ridiculous argument that doesn't hold any water and no one should take seriously.

I'm a property and land owner in the US and I'm completely subject to the rules and laws regarding land and property ownership in the US. Here, as in most places, the US can literally remove me from my home and property for reasons far less serious than losing a war. We call it eminent domain.

For more info on the subject, look into the Tennessee Valley Authority....who displaced many many people for dam and irrigation projects. Did those people own land and homes? Of course they did...but it doesn't mean they don't have to obey the government that ruled them.

The people of Palestine didn't dispute that they were subject to Ottoman rule....nor did they dispute that the Ottomans relinquished that rule to the British. They merely disagreed with the choices Britain made with the land.

This argument has zero relevance or substance. Palestinians were evicted from land they had owned for centuries.

 

[Vanellus]

The journalist who recorded that video also says he witnessed a bus full of families being targeted by an Israeli tank.

Video footage showing the moment a tank opened fire on a car in northern Gaza has emerged - amid fears a family were killed.

Yousaf Al Saifi, the Gaza-based journalist who captured the video, has told Sky News he later saw the tank fire on a "bus full of families".

Mr Al Saifi says he then drove away before he saw a "bus full of families".

He said that as the bus approached the tank it fired another shell.

He added: "It took out everyone on the bus. At this point, I felt how dangerous the situation was and turned around."

Israel-Hamas war: Footage from Gaza shows tank firing at car amid fears family were killed

The video has been captured by a Gaza-based journalist after Israeli tanks entered the north of the Palestinian territory.

news.sky.com

This is just the start I fear.

 

[Vanellus]

Would you find it a more appropriate response if Israel did some sort of proportional attack on Palestine where they send in a few hundreds soldiers after a focus rocket strike in a residential area and then raped women and children and murdered 1500 of them along with their babies before grabbing a couple of hundred hostages and returning to Israel to torture them?

'Tortured and paraded around Gaza:' Abducted Israeli-German raver confirmed dead

***

www.haaretz.com

Would that be better or worse than what they're doing now?

False dichotomy - how about not doing either.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ashli Babbitt wasn't dressed any different from a lot of Trump supporters. Are you suggesting [I am not suggesting] the authorities don't have to wait for any overt acts before opening fire?

Babbitt was a member of this nation and as such is supposed to be afforded certain rights.

When we went to war with Iraq and Afghanistan....anyone approaching a military checkpoint too quickly could be fired upon and often was. The result was a lot of dead women, children, and innocent civilians. Sometimes it's suspected they didn't pay attention to the signs posted....sometimes it was suspected that they were illiterate. Regardless, we don't consider those deaths war crimes....we didn't throw those soldiers in jail.

I'll agree that a sort of fantasy world where terrorists are identified perfectly every time before they are killed would be nice....but since that's a fantasy world that can never exist, you should hold realistic standards for people who have to face these difficult choices.

A similar argument was made by the left during the whole BLM nonsense that cops should only shoot after they've been shot at. It took several years and a dead girl named Breonna Taylor to see the truth....it never mattered if the cops were shot at first. The people complaining about the cops simply hated thr cops. They had infinite patience and endless excuses for anyone shooting at cops, reaching for guns, or trying to kill cops in any other manner....but no patience for cops who killed someone in the line of duty, even when it was justified, even when it was in self defense.

Do you have a realistic standard for how Israel should engage with Hamas? Or if they cannot do it perfectly....do you think they should just accept being murdered by terrorists?

The political left was perfectly fine with selling cluster bombs to Ukrainians (a war crime even if they aren't used) so recently that it's hard to take this sudden outrage at the deaths of potentially innocent people seriously.

 

[Vanellus]

Oh I totally believe him..... Probably a sympathizer. Either that or Hamas threatened him and his family.

Closing your ears to the truth. Any evidence for your assertion?

 

[Vanellus]

Me? You think I want to kill all the babies in Gaza? What a bizarre take.

So wanting someone else (the IDF) to kill all the babies in Gaza is ok then?

 

[Ana the Ist]

False dichotomy - how about not doing either.

In other words...

When Hamas storms into Israel and murders hundreds, rapes women, murders babies and innocent civilians who were minding their own business, takes hostages back to Gaza to be tortured and used as human shields....

You want Israel to do nothing and simply accept it.

Great response.


I don't know if you've noticed, but it's not hard to tell which people on this thread support terrorists. They have a tendency to get outraged at everything except dead jews. I wonder why they are apathetic to the actions of terrorists and hate the idea of Israel defending itself?

 

[Vanellus]

In other words...

When Hamas storms into Israel and murders hundreds, rapes women, murders babies and innocent civilians who were minding their own business, takes hostages back to Gaza to be tortured and used as human shields....

You want Israel to do nothing and simply accept it.

Great response.


I don't know if you've noticed, but it's not hard to tell which people on this thread support terrorists. They have a tendency to get outraged at everything except dead jews. I wonder why they are apathetic to the actions of terrorists and hate the idea of Israel defending itself?

Where did I say "do nothing"? Using it as an excuse to murder as many Gazans as possible is not the answer. Nether is Netanyahu actively supporting Hamas either a good idea.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

 

[trophy33]

Where do you get this information? What is the source? How do you know Israelis have done this?

There:

Warning, its on a video, so if you are sensitive... it begins at 1:16:50, circa.

 

[har_habayit]

Completely random thought, maybe, but I feel the biggest injustice in this whole conflict is the Muslim appropriation of the Temple Mount. The Hamas rampage through southern Israel was dubbed, "Al Aqsa Flood". These crazy Muslims use the whole Temple Mount issue every year to start some shenanigans. I really feel like Islam is evil in that way. They occupy the religious sites of others and turn them into Muslim sites, and then prohibit the followers of the older religions to worship there.

I have difficulty imagining that Muslims would allow Israelis or evangelical Christians to occupy Mecca, turn the Kaaba into a church, and hold revivals in it, while simultaneously refusing Muslims the right to access their holiest site. Yet because Muslims do that to the Temple Mount, it's accepted because everyone knows the Muslims will go crazy if the status quo ever changes.

Having been on the Temple Mount, I can tell that Muslims have zero regard for that site. Kids are up there near the Holy of Holies kicking around soccer balls. I never felt anything in my life like what I felt up there when I was walking around the Dome of the rock. And yet when I saw the kids kicking around the soccer balls, I got angry, as many Jews have as well.

I often think that the Muslims don't really care about the temple mount for themselves. They are just interested in making sure Jews never reclaim their holiest site. They built their admittedly beautiful shrine on roughly the site of the temple, I believe, to spite both the Jews and the Christians. The shrine is elevated above the church of the holy sepulchre and has verses of the Quran written on the outside denouncing the doctrine that God could have a Son. And of course it's built over the old temples, more or less.

Muslims have a spiteful control over Jerusalem and they don't want to give it up. So every year they manufacture some conspiracy about Al Aqsa mosque and wreak havoc. This year they were threatened because thousands of Jews ascended for the festival of Sukkot and Hamas was raging about this before the "Al Aqsa Flood" operation on October 7th.

In the book of Nehemiah, a prominent Arab official and other surrounding enemies tried to destroy Nehemiah's work in rebuilding Jerusalem. First they mocked, and then they raged, then they plotted. I think reading that story is crucial to understanding Arab and anti-Israel sentiment today regarding Jerusalem. They weren't really wanting Jerusalem for themselves. What they wanted to do was to make sure that Nehemiah and the "feeble Jews" (see chapter 4, v. 2) were never successful in rebuilding Jerusalem and making it a Jewish capital again.

"Then I replied to them, “The God of heaven will make us prosper, and we his servants will arise and build, but you have no portion or right or claim in Jerusalem.” (Nehemiah 2:20).

It was true then, and it is true now. The Muslims have no portion or claim to the Temple Mount specifically, yet they insist on it being a Muslim site. They do have a story about Mohammad ascending into heaven from the rock in the shrine to receive instructions from his god about daily prayers, and no offense, but I suspect this story is manufactured to stake a claim on the temple mount.

Denying the right of Jews and Christians to worship freely on the temple mount is the biggest crime in the Middle East and perhaps the world. This would never be tolerated from Jews and Christians and yet Muslims are allowed to do it because they're nuts.

Muslims know the power of that piece of property and they know that freedom of worship there would completely eliminate their false control of that site, and in fact, free worship on the temple mount would perhaps change the world.

 

[trophy33]

There are two ways to take out three hundred miles of tunnels 40 feet under homes, schools and hospitals, apartment buildings etc;

One is to have heavy man power and resources to go into a labyrinth of hundreds of miles of tunnels step by step in close quarter fighting and the real possibility of Hamas blowing up the tunnel before and after where the soldiers are - burying them alive. There is not a commander in the world who would be dumb enough to to this.

Two: Remove the citizens from above the tunnels (the schools, hospitals and apartment buildings) and use bunker busting ordinance to destroy them.

But here is Hamas - the ones who dug the tunnels under peoples homes, schools and hospitals - preventing woman and children from going to the South where there is humanitarian aid, etc. Where they would be safe.

Why is that?

I do not know what are best solutions for this complex situation. Both sides are doing wrong things and UN is too weak to enforce anything in the area.

 

[trophy33]

Apparently it isn't. And you have no idea what you are talking about. Haven't we been hearing about how all these Hamas live with their families and are surrounded by other Palestinians? How you can't tell a Hamas or a Hamas supporter just by looking at them?

The same thing Allies ware trying to do in Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel must do in Palestine.

Civilian casualties must be avoided as much as technically possible. If there is a fighter hidden between civilians, you cannot kill them all, you must wait for him to leave. Its what civilized countries do.

One thing is an accident, mistake or evil of some individual or small group, another thing is if its not even an official policy, like you seem to defend.

Equation "you killed thousand of us, we kill 10,000 of you in a revenge" is not civilized and leads to escalation of revenge from the first side of the conflict, again. Things are getting worse and more cruel, thats the definition of escalation.

 

[trophy33]

I agree, but we don't live in that world. As was demonstrated once again on October 7. All of those people are not Christians. They are unbelievers who could care less what Christ had to say. Just like all the other people who say the same thing here in America.

But one thing we do know as that Israel has all th right in the world even biblically to protect their people and visit vengeance on evil doers who would do them harm. That's biblical too.

Both Muslims and Jews are not Christian and both do evil to each other, they do not have the specific Christian morality about loving enemies in them.

If Israel has the right to visit vengeance, do Palestinians have it too? Its either moral for both side or for none, we must decide what morality we want to hold to - the Old Testament one (eye for eye) or the Christian one? Whenever any church tried to apply Old Testament laws, it ended badly (like burning witches and heretics).

 

[har_habayit]

I do not know what are best solutions for this complex situation. Both sides are doing wrong things and UN is too weak to enforce anything in the area.

I agree, that's tough. No wonder the IDF is content to bomb everything instead of going into tunnels. I never thought about what people meant by "booby traps" awaiting the Israeli soldiers. Sending people into tunnels where they would be suffocating to death following Hamas collapsing the tunnels seems like a pretty dumb idea. I can see where it's easier to do as many aerial strikes as possible, and then go into the ground war. But even then, it seems like the hospitals and schools would have to be evacuated and destroyed in order to destroy the tunnels.

Israel simply can't risk going into all those places and losing their soldiers to suffocation. Nor can they just sit there and let Hamas win by being stellar humanitarians when these terrorists want to destroy Israel. I appreciate the honest comment that "I don't know the solution to these complex scenarios." Despite all the condemnation, we would all face a difficult choice if we were the Israelis.

 

[trophy33]

I agree, that's tough. No wonder the IDF is content to bomb everything instead of going into tunnels. I never thought about what people meant by "booby traps" awaiting the Israeli soldiers. Sending people into tunnels where they would be suffocating to death seems like a pretty dumb idea. I can see where it's easier to do as much aerial strikes as possible, and then go into the ground war. But even then, it seems like the hospitals and schools would have to be destroyed in order to destroy the tunnels.

Israel simply can't risk going into all those places and losing their soldiers to suffocation. Nor can they just sit there and let Hamas win by being stellar humanitarians when these terrorists want to destroy Israel. I appreciate the honest comment that "I don't know the solution to these complex scenarios." Despite all the condemnation, we would allow face a difficult choice if we were the Israelis.

Both sides do evil to each other. Its not just about tunnels, or just about illegal settlements, just about apartheid, just about Hamas etc.

The whole situation there is set badly since the beginning. If something did not work till now, it will not work tomorrow. Some new policy, new solutions are needed.

 

[Robban]

Your Lubavitcher Rebbe may be fascinated to know that his question has already been answered (I'm assuming the Reb is still with us?)
1
.When light is turned off in a room, the photons already in the room will eventually collide with a particle in the wall/air/furniture. That particle will absorb the photon, and this particle's speed will now increase (vibration, rotation, linear, or combination off all 3). Now there are two options: either the particle will re-emit a photon and lose speed or bounce into another particle and transfer some speed to it. Since the particles in the room are always bouncing and rubbing up against one another, after a few repetitions of absorb->re-emit->reabsorb, all the photon energy in the room will have eventually just been converted to speed energy. This happens very fast, which is why it looks like the light just disappeared instantly
2
4
5
.When a photon is absorbed, the energy, which is contained in the warps, is consumed by the absorber
6
. Therefore, photons do not die out, but their energy can be transferred to other particles.


OB

The bottle part of the post was not from the Rebbe.

It was meant as a simple example but any example will limp if kicked hard enough.

There is no greater darkness than one in which
"A man saw not his fellow"

"A man saw not his fellow neither rose any from his place for three days."
Exodus 10:23


This post is probably wasted too,
but just as darkness is lack of light so too is evil lack of goodness.

 

[Occams Barber]

The bottle part of the post was not from the Rebbe.

It was meant as a simple example but any example will limp if kicked hard enough.

There is no greater darkness than one in which
"A man saw not his fellow"

"A man saw not his fellow neither rose any from his place for three days."
Exodus 10:23


This post is probably wasted too,
but just as darkness is lack of light so too is evil lack of goodness.

Sorry.

Mysterious Metaphysical Metaphors are lost on me.

OB

 

[Landon Caeli]

IDF strike killing a Hamas commander

Israeli forces say they killed a Hamas commander, Nasim Abu Ajina, who they say directed the Oct. 7 attack. (via IDF)

www.google.com

 

[Vanellus]

Completely random thought, maybe, but I feel the biggest injustice in this whole conflict is the Muslim appropriation of the Temple Mount. The Hamas rampage through southern Israel was dubbed, "Al Aqsa Flood". These crazy Muslims use the whole Temple Mount issue every year to start some shenanigans. I really feel like Islam is evil in that way. They occupy the religious sites of others and turn them into Muslim sites, and then prohibit the followers of the older religions to worship there.

I have difficulty imagining that Muslims would allow Israelis or evangelical Christians to occupy Mecca, turn the Kaaba into a church, and hold revivals in it, while simultaneously refusing Muslims the right to access their holiest site. Yet because Muslims do that to the Temple Mount, it's accepted because everyone knows the Muslims will go crazy if the status quo ever changes.

Having been on the Temple Mount, I can tell that Muslims have zero regard for that site. Kids are up there near the Holy of Holies kicking around soccer balls. I never felt anything in my life like what I felt up there when I was walking around the Dome of the rock. And yet when I saw the kids kicking around the soccer balls, I got angry, as many Jews have as well.

I often think that the Muslims don't really care about the temple mount for themselves. They are just interested in making sure Jews never reclaim their holiest site. They built their admittedly beautiful shrine on roughly the site of the temple, I believe, to spite both the Jews and the Christians. The shrine is elevated above the church of the holy sepulchre and has verses of the Quran written on the outside denouncing the doctrine that God could have a Son. And of course it's built over the old temples, more or less.

Muslims have a spiteful control over Jerusalem and they don't want to give it up. So every year they manufacture some conspiracy about Al Aqsa mosque and wreak havoc. This year they were threatened because thousands of Jews ascended for the festival of Sukkot and Hamas was raging about this before the "Al Aqsa Flood" operation on October 7th.

In the book of Nehemiah, a prominent Arab official and other surrounding enemies tried to destroy Nehemiah's work in rebuilding Jerusalem. First they mocked, and then they raged, then they plotted. I think reading that story is crucial to understanding Arab and anti-Israel sentiment today regarding Jerusalem. They weren't really wanting Jerusalem for themselves. What they wanted to do was to make sure that Nehemiah and the "feeble Jews" (see chapter 4, v. 2) were never successful in rebuilding Jerusalem and making it a Jewish capital again.

"Then I replied to them, “The God of heaven will make us prosper, and we his servants will arise and build, but you have no portion or right or claim in Jerusalem.” (Nehemiah 2:20).

It was true then, and it is true now. The Muslims have no portion or claim to the Temple Mount specifically, yet they insist on it being a Muslim site. They do have a story about Mohammad ascending into heaven from the rock in the shrine to receive instructions from his god about daily prayers, and no offense, but I suspect this story is manufactured to stake a claim on the temple mount.

Denying the right of Jews and Christians to worship freely on the temple mount is the biggest crime in the Middle East and perhaps the world. This would never be tolerated from Jews and Christians and yet Muslims are allowed to do it because they're nuts.

Muslims know the power of that piece of property and they know that freedom of worship there would completely eliminate their false control of that site, and in fact, free worship on the temple mount would perhaps change the world.

Well quite a lot of assumptions there as if you can read the mind of each and every Muslim - and you think they all think exactly the same thing on such matters: not realistic. Maybe dial down the us and them rhetoric if you want an end to the conflict.

The Christian take on "holy places":
Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem

It's not at all certain where Solomon's Temple actually was - some think it may have been south of the Temple Mount.

Native Americans may think the same about their holy sites that have been taken from them - I don't think the US government will give them back.

 

[wing2000]

According to the IDF, their forces have started engaging Hamas within their tunnel system:

"Over the last day, combined IDF (Israel Defense Forces) struck approximately 300 targets, including anti-tank missile and rocket launch posts below shafts, as well as military compounds inside underground tunnels belonging to the Hamas terrorist organization," the Israeli military said in a statement.

Israel says it attacked Hamas gunmen inside Gaza tunnels

Israel said its forces attacked Hamas gunmen inside the militants' vast tunnel network beneath the Palestinian enclave of Gaza after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu dismissed calls for a halt to fighting to ease a worsening humanitarian crisis.

www.reuters.com