Hamas-Israel News Thread

[Chesterton]

So with a warning no one died? Or maybe the warning never got through to all? Or..?
" It is often stated that the British authorities have always denied that a warning was sent. However, what the British Government said, five months after the bombing, once the subsequent inquest and all the inquiries had been completed, was not that no warning had been sent, but that no such warning had been received by anyone at the Secretariat "in an official position with any power to take action."[10] Begin directly accused Chief Secretary of the Palestine Mandate, John Shaw, of ignoring the warning. Shaw strongly denied having received it.[19]"

So would I believe a military man strongly denying something or terrorists that said they gave warning? My general rules is not to believe mass murderers.

It should be no surprise that wiki called it terrorism. The Prime Minister of England also did.

"Hon. Members will have learned with horror of the brutal and murderous crime committed yesterday in Jerusalem. Of all the outrages which have occurred in Palestine, and they have been many and horrible in the last few months, this is the worst. By this insane act of terrorism 93 innocent people have been killed or are missing in the ruins. The latest figures of casualties are 41 dead, 52 missing and 53 injured. I have no further information at present beyond what is contained in the following official report received from Jerusalem"

"Irgun's choice of bombing the King David Hotel's south wing housing the civilian Secretariat, rather than the central block of the hotel housing the Military HQ , was q direct response to Operation Agatha."

History of the Palestine Police during the British Mandate - Bombing of the King David Hotel

Bombing of the King David Hotel

britishpalestinepolice.org.uk

Shaw received the warning, and thought it was a bluff. Even if the warning was not received by someone "in an official position", it would have been communicated one way or another to Shaw. Even if the warning was received by a bellhop, it would have been relayed to others.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It says that was against Britain, as well as the policy of "open-ended Jewish immigration and land purchases with the stated goal of establishing a "Jewish National Home"

Basically against being invaded.

They weren't being invaded. It was British territory. They could do as they wanted with it.

This is less of a home invasion analogy and more of an "apartment building new neighbors" analogy. The Palestinians rented an apartment in an apartment building owned by the Ottomans who then sold the building to the British. Then one day the British started renting out the other apartments to Jews...and the Palestinians didn't like their new Jewish neighbors, because their new neighbors were Jewish.

The Jewish people didn't invade anything....nor did they steal any land. They were invited to live there....by the people who owned the land, the British.

 

[truthpls]

Shaw received the warning, and thought it was a bluff. Even if the warning was not received by someone "in an official position", it would have been communicated one way or another to Shaw. Even if the warning was received by a bellhop, it would have been relayed to others.

He said he didn't. He said she said. The same folks who said he did (something they would need to say to justify themselves publicly) sent a letter bomb to the guy trying to kill him later. Real trustworthy

 

[truthpls]

They weren't being invaded. It was British territory. They could do as they wanted with it.

Might makes right?

This is less of a home invasion analogy and more of an "apartment building new neighbors" analogy. The Palestinians rented an apartment in an apartment building owned by the Ottomans who then sold the building to the British. Then one day the British started renting out the other apartments to Jews...and the Palestinians didn't like their new Jewish neighbors, because their new neighbors were Jewish.

The Jewish people didn't invade anything....nor did they steal any land. They were invited to live there....by the people who owned the land, the British.

Invited to share the land. Not kick everyone else out, no?

 

[Chesterton]

He said he didn't. He said she said.

I agree there's that element of "he said she said", but I think Shaw had more reason to lie, to "cover his butt" after the fact.

 

[truthpls]

I agree there's that element of "he said she said", but I think Shaw had more reason to lie, to "cover his butt" after the fact.

I'll stick with my policy of not believing terrorists, thanks. The same folks that said Shaw was a liar sent him a letter bomb to kill him later. Real trutworthy

 

[durangodawood]

Right wing includes Nazis because that's what you've been erroneously taught. The Nazis were Socialists.

Right = right. Left = sinister. Look it up.

Doesnt matter for the sake of the train wreck notion you were trying to advance. Jews can be right wing. Youre probably the only person in world who doesnt think so.

"

 

[Chesterton]

I'll stick with my policy of not believing terrorists...

Name-calling is not an argument.

 

[Ana the Ist]

News articles say that that is hit and miss.

They say that what is "hit and miss"?

Also not during blackouts.

A hospital under a blackout needs to be evacuated anyway. The whole reason why they claimed they couldn't evacuate the hospital was because people inside were hooked up to machines that were helping keep them alive....like respirators.

If there's a blackout in a hospital and the people choose to stay... it's so they can be human shields for the terrorists.

And also, since the bombing continues and fleeing convoys attacked and killed they cannnot be believed.

Hamas shouldn't use them as cover and try to keep them in Northern Gaza for use as human shields.

IDF claims Hamas struck convoy of Gazans fleeing south Friday, killing 70

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Israel claims those people were killed by Hamas and they will release proof. I expect this is just like when Hamas bombed near the hospital and blamed Israel. You should stop believing the propaganda of people who take hostages for human shields and deliberately murder women and children in terrorist attacks.

No one needs to trust Hamas or listen to a word they say. All we need to do is see a heavily populated area have swaths of apartments bombed.

Because they were used as high ground and Hamas terrorists fired rockets from their rooftops or otherwise occupied those buildings.

 

[Chesterton]

Doesnt matter for the sake of the train wreck notion you were trying to advance. Jews can be right wing. Youre probably the only person in world who doesnt think so.

I agree Jews can be conservative. I wish to God that more of them were more conservative, so idiot politicians like AOC wouldn't be elected in NYC. But Jews cannot be "right-wing" in the sense that you and I have been taught to understand the term "right-wing".

 

[truthpls]

Name-calling is not an argument.

The actions is Gaza warrant the title of terrorist

 

[Chesterton]

The actions is Gaza warrant the title of terrorist

?

 

[truthpls]

They say that what is "hit and miss"?

Warnings. They do not always have internet or neighbors telling them on time etc.

A hospital under a blackout needs to be evacuated anyway.

Not if fuel for power is not witheld. But we can let them decide if the patients need evacuating, thank you very much

The whole reason why they claimed they couldn't evacuate the hospital was because people inside were hooked up to machines that were helping keep them alive....like respirators.

If there's a blackout in a hospital and the people choose to stay... it's so they can be human shields for the terrorists.

I am not sure that is the whole reason. Terrorizing them by cutting power does not mean all doctors and nurses want to abandon the sick or believe the terrorists.

Hamas shouldn't use them as cover and try to keep them in Northern Gaza for use as human shields.

That is your claim. Articles I read seemed to bring out that doctors had compassion etc

Israel claims those people were killed by Hamas and they will release proof.

Perhaps some people might even believe what they say. My policy is not to believe terrorists. Evermore

I expect this is just like when Hamas bombed near the hospital and blamed Israel.

I thought that hospital bombing incident was lost in the fog of war and no one proved who did it?

You should stop believing the propaganda of people who take hostages for human shields and deliberately murder women and children in terrorist attacks.

You believe who you like.

 

[truthpls]

?

Mass killing and targeting of civilians by blowing up apartments in highly populated areas is terrorism as far as I can tell

 

[Chesterton]

Mass killing and targeting of civilians by blowing up apartments in highly populated areas is terrorism as far as I can tell

I would generally agree, except that neither of those things are happening, except by Hamas.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sure. Who is analogous to nazism in Palestinian/Israel conflict, though? Both sides hate each other horribly and are willing to murder each other in high numbers, to lie about each other etc.

I'm not claiming that Palestine or Israel is analogous to Nazi Germany. Although Hamas does want to commit another Holocaust and kill all Jewish people worldwide (their words) they don't seem to have nearly the ability of Nazi Germany to have any real success in the endeavor.

No, I simply chose a group of people typically regarded as morally bad because of their actions and the actions they supported to make a clear example of why we value some lives more than others. I could have used a serial killer for example and pointed out that most people would not care if the conditions of their prison cell were less than comfortable. I don't presume to know you or your position on prison reforms or the death penalty (some people here actually believe prison should be abolished and the death penalty ended) so I went with the nazi example because they are more universally devalued.

International community must simply force both sides to stop violence and other illegal activity.

I get what you're saying....and I would agree that without international law enforcement there's little reason to obey international laws...and that's a problem for anyone who genuinely cares about international laws.

Sadly....it seems like any such international law enforcement will never exist on a scale that has any significant effects on crimes at high levels of government or between nations. Guatemala has been accused of extreme corruption multiple times....and I think 2 of the last three Guatemalan Presidents opened their offices to an investigation of corruption by the UN. 2 of those Presidents were removed and imprisoned for corruption...the other one (the one who followed the previous two) decided to not open his office to an investigation even though he faced similar allegations. He's still President and it shows just how impotent international laws are without any real enforcement.

This problem doesn't just manifest on battlefields and in political offices either. Regulations that are intended to limit the wealth and power of corporations are easily skirted on the global economy. Back when businesses had to do their manufacturing, shipping, and selling within the borders of their own nations....it was far easier to pass meaningful regulations and keep them under control.

Wishing for something that isnt going to happen (or is extremely unlikely to happen) seems futile though...and we are forced to solve problems with the means that exist, not those we wish existed.

Backing just one side of the conflict and ignoring the suffering of the other is unjust. Sadly, many people or countries are picking clear side for various emotional reasons. Which does not help to solve it at all.

There's no emotional reasons behind my backing of Israel. I think it's likely they have unintentionally killed Palestinians that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure that despite settlements being bought by Israelis from Palestinians.....there are settlements that have been illegally taken by Israelis without any valid claims or money exchanged.

There are examples of Israel holding their citizens accountable in some such instances.

Israeli Soldier Who Shot Wounded Palestinian Assailant Is Convicted (Published 2017)

The manslaughter verdict in a West Bank shooting highlighted the rifts the case has opened among Israelis and the host of political and ethical issues it has raised.

www.nytimes.com

And...

Israel's Supreme Court strikes down law legalising settlements on private Palestinian land

Israel's Supreme Court struck down a law on Tuesday that had retroactively legalised about 4,000 settler homes built on privately owned Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank.

www.reuters.com

To compare this against the Palestinians...I can't find any recent examples of a terrorist being held accountable or found guilty of murder of innocent Israelis.

Their most common crime is the attempted murder of Israeli citizens hundreds of times a year. That's something that I find far worse than an "illegal settlement". If you want an analogy....imagine that you built a fence along the border of your yard and your neighbor's yard. He claimed it was illegal...and that you've taken a small percentage of his yard with your fence. The police have been informed...but frankly, they aren't interested in dealing with the situation...and they never will be. As a result, your neighbor fires bullets into your home from his home about 800 times a year. True...he rarely kills anyone...but sometimes he does (let's say that you had friends over and it meant your living room was packed with people) and the police aren't interested in dealing with these murders anymore than they are the disputed fence....

It's hard for me to imagine that people would be taking the side of the neighbor shooting bullets. It would be a nightmarish scenario for you to have to live in. One might reasonably expect you to begin shooting back....but instead of doing it blindly, you try your hardest to only kill the shooter. You tell other people in your neighbour's house to evacuate or to hide in the basement to avoid being shot. Sometimes they do...other times they don't, because they support your neighbor....and believe you won't shoot if they don't evacuate.

In this situation, it seems to me that one neighbor is being wildly unreasonable and extremely immoral. He's told the entire neighborhood he wants everyone in your house killed...so he could have your home for himself. He displays the bodies of his friends and family you've killed in your conflict with him.

Yet you've shown remarkable restraint in your conflict with your neighbor. You've tried non-violent methods to drive him out. You move the fence further into his property every year to eventually push him out...but you don't want to murder everyone who lives there.

That's why I support you. On October 7th...your neighbor and his friends snuck into your backyard and murdered many of your family and friends....more than they've killed at once in a long long time.

I would suggest that you stop being merciful. Stop being gentle. It's time for you to end this conflict with your neighbor once and for all....because you've long since shown yourself to be the more reasonable, more compassionate, more moral of the two. You shouldn't have to continue to live in fear of your neighbor every day....and you've given him multiple chances to act morally himself. He's chosen violence and hatred every time while playing the victim.

It's time to bulldoze your neighbor's house....tell everyone to flee or be buried where they fall. Enough is enough.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Maybe its that the "the Jews" cant possibly include both right wing conservatives and left wing progressives?

I think "the jews" are starting to reconsider their position on the left and more specifically amongst progressives.

Pro-Palestine protesters plan to ‘flood’ Brooklyn — near Hasidic Jewish site: ‘The louder we will be’

Masses of Pro-Palestine supporters plan to ‘flood’ the streets outside the Brooklyn Museum on Saturday in another protest.

nypost.com

Jewish students locked in library during pro-Palestinian rally at Cooper Union

A group of Jewish students say they ended up locked inside the library at Cooper Union while other students who were part of a pro-Palestine rally banged on the windows and door.

www.google.com

They're learning that perhaps the right wing threat of "white supremacists" is perhaps a little overblown compared to the left wing support of Muslim terrorists who murder them by the hundreds.

They're learning that it doesn't matter if they are the victims of a terrorist attack on their homeland that killed hundreds....or that they stood beside their "progressive allies" when they complained about being the victims of state sponsored terrorism and persecution at the hands of conservatives and police.

They seem rather surprised by the way their former allies....who weren't murdered by the hundreds by terrorists and persecuted in any real way.....have dismissed the deaths of their friends and families who actually were the victims of state sponsored terrorists and it's just because they're "white" and "colonizers" (even though Israel was never actually a colony....they're learning that definitions don't matter very much on the left).

I'll say that the one good thing about this conflict is the way it's killing support for Joe Biden on the left. He's down 11 points. The progressive far left Palestinian supporters hate his policy of supporting and defending Israel....and I wouldn't be surprised if Jewish people are quietly rethinking their support for the left in general (quietly, so they aren't targeted by the rampant antisemitism of the left).

I don't know what to say about the "Queers for Palestine"....is anyone going to tell them that the Muslim community is less fond of them than the Catholic community? "Queers for Palestine Holds Rally" sounds like the headline of an Onion article.

This is always going to be the problem with the progressive left and identity politics in general. They can all band together for political power and get a "seat at the table" but much like Animal Farm, once they get there....they learn that some animals are more equal than others.

That Orwell was really something.

 

[truthpls]

I would generally agree, except that neither of those things are happening, except by Hamas.

Apartment blocks were destroyed in great number. That'll do er

 

[Valletta]

Apartment blocks were destroyed in great number. That'll do er

Hamas wants the children dead, Israel want them alive. It's that plain:

Hamas leader Isamil Haniyeh called for Palestinian civilians to die in Israel’s strikes against Hamas terrorists inside of Gaza.
The remarks come as Hamas commits war crimes by using civilians as human shields and lies about events that have unfolded during the three-week war, including its false claims that Israel bombed a hospital.

Hamas Leader: ‘Women, Children, Elderly’ Must Die In Gaza To Help Our Fight Against Israel

Hamas leader Isamil Haniyeh called for Palestinian civilians to die in Israel’s strikes against Hamas terrorists inside of Gaza.The remarks come as Hamas commits war crimes by using civilians as human shields and lies about events that have unfolded during the three-week war, including its false...

www.dailywire.com

 

[Always in His Presence]

I do not know. Thats for military strategists to find out. But not bombing civilians, not driving million of people out of their homes in 24 hours etc.

There are two ways to take out three hundred miles of tunnels 40 feet under homes, schools and hospitals, apartment buildings etc;

One is to have heavy man power and resources to go into a labyrinth of hundreds of miles of tunnels step by step in close quarter fighting and the real possibility of Hamas blowing up the tunnel before and after where the soldiers are - burying them alive. There is not a commander in the world who would be dumb enough to to this.

Two: Remove the citizens from above the tunnels (the schools, hospitals and apartment buildings) and use bunker busting ordinance to destroy them.

But here is Hamas - the ones who dug the tunnels under peoples homes, schools and hospitals - preventing woman and children from going to the South where there is humanitarian aid, etc. Where they would be safe.

Why is that?