Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[didactics]

Let me remind you of this because I don't think you responded to it.

Hymenaeus and Philetus simply were stating that the Resurrection had already occured while the Temple and Jerusalem still stood. Jesus had not avenged the blood of the saints and martyrs yet, Israel had not filled up the full measure of her sins yet, the parousia and salvation had not happened yet, and therefore the Spiritual Resurrection from Hadean Paradise had not occurred yet.

Ah, but the penitent thief on the cross was told he would be with Christ that day in paradise. His death that day was his entrance to paradise (Lk 23:43).

Lastly, you are the one omitting things you don't understand.

Futurists are the ones messing with the framework,

See John 5:28-29

 

[Ephesians321]

Let me remind you of this because I don't think you responded to it.



Lastly, you are the one omitting things you don't understand.

See John 5:28-29

He went to Hadean Paradise (Rev. 20:4-5), a finite holding place that is where all of the Old Testament and New Testament saints were held until their spiritual resurrection into eternal Heaven that occurred during the Parousia in A.D. 70.

the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All [heaven itself] was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle [Old Covenant, Law, And its Temple] was still standing Hebrews 9:8

BUT NOW, ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGES, HE HAS APPEARED TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION [deliverance of the 1st Century Church and the Resurrection of the dead in Christ, they will rise first before those remaining]. Hebrews 9:26-28​

Futurists have dreadfully misread and twisted the context of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:

The Same as the “Rapture?”

​

We saw earlier how allusions to the Day of Atonement and the Jubilee were used in connection with the gathering of the saints unto Christ. St. Paul uses similar language to describe the resurrection and “rapture”:

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (I Thess. 4:15-17)

The question becomes whether these passages describe the same event? Is the “catching up” to meet the Lord referred to in I Thess. 4:17 the same event as the “gathering” unto the Lord at his coming referred to in II Thess. 2:1? Although gathering unto the Lord and being caught up to meet him in the air are similar concepts and use similar terms, we believe the better view is that the two passages describe different events. II Thess. 2:1-12 deals with the eschatological gathering of the saints by martyrdom preceding the resurrection, I Thess. 4:15-17 deals with the catching up of living saints after the resurrection. Hence, the two passage clearly speak to different circumstances.

In I Thess. 4:15-17, the issue is whether those who perished in the Lord are lost forever. Paul assures his readers that they had not perished, but would be resurrected on the last day. Then, as those alive at Christ’s coming in turn experience physical death themselves, they would be caught up in the air to meet the Lord and be reunited with their loved ones in heaven. “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (II Cor. 5:1) This explains the similarity of language in I and II Thessalonians: both describe the same process of being gathered unto Christ by physical death, albeit at different times under different circumstances. Whether before or after the eschaton, both would be gathered home to Jesus in heaven.​

Conclusion​

The eschatological harvest spoke to the saints being gathered unto Christ by martyrdom under Nero, the “man of sin.” This time of gathering was restrained while Claudius was upon the throne, but when he was taken out of the way, Nero would ascend the throne and embrace a policy of persecution toward the church. Those alive at Christ’s return would be reunited with their loved ones after the eschaton, being caught up to meet the Lord in they air at the time of their own physical demise.​

 

[Ephesians321]

​

Let me remind you of this because I don't think you responded to it.



Lastly, you are the one omitting things you don't understand.

See John 5:28-29

Also, do you think God is really going to bother to resurrect the condemned only to immediately toss them alive into a lake of fire again? Rev. 20:11-15

Like I said Revelation 20 simply a recapitulation. And most of its context is a spiritual vision of Hadean death and Hadean Paradise within the context of Christ's A.D. 70 Parousia and the Resurrection.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

 

[didactics]

Also, do you think God is really going to bother to resurrect the condemned only to immediately toss them alive into a lake of fire again? Rev. 20:11-15

Yes, I absolutely believe this.
From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:
Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Maybe a good read for later sometime is The Inferno (Worldview Edition) Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy —an epic poem.

 

[Ephesians321]

Yes, I absolutely believe this.
From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:
Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Maybe a good read for later sometime is The Inferno (Worldview Edition) Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy —an epic poem.

Yes, what do futurists have in common with the Jews? They share a common belief, do you know it? It is the reason they rejected Jesus and his spiritual kingdom. It is one of the biggest reasons they killed him.

So, according to Hebrews 1:2 (Christ's earthly ministry was in the last days) and Hebrews 9:26 (Christ died and rose from the dead during the end of the age), the last days aka the end of the age has existed approximately as long as Biblical Israel itself existed between Joshua to Jerusalem A.D.70?

 

[Derf]

Also, do you think God is really going to bother to resurrect the condemned only to immediately toss them alive into a lake of fire again? Rev. 20:11-15

No, this is where it gets odd in most Christians' belief, that God would condemn to a fiery torture those that haven't yet been judged.

This is what makes the Hadean state of either bliss or torment seem unjust, when judgment comes after the punishment/reward. But Jesus said those who were dead would be called from their graves to judgment.
John 5:28-29 KJV — Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This seems to tell us that
1 "Hadean" torment is probably in the lake of fire, and
2 you have to be resurrected to be tormented

 

[Ephesians321]

Yes, what do futurists have in common with the Jews? They share a common belief, do you know it? It is the reason they rejected Jesus and his spiritual kingdom. It is one of the biggest reasons they killed him.

So, according to Hebrews 1:2 (Christ's earthly ministry was in the last days) and Hebrews 9:26 (Christ died and rose from the dead during the end of the age), the last days aka the end of the age has existed approximately as long as Biblical Israel itself existed between Joshua to Jerusalem A.D.70?

Oops the last days and the end of the age have existed centuries longer than the whole existence of Biblical covenantal Israel.

2023 CE - 30-33 CE= 1,990-1,993 years
1400 BCE (earliest date of Joshua) + 70 CE = 1,470 years

 

[Ephesians321]

No, this is where it gets odd in most Christians' belief, that God would condemn to a fiery torture those that haven't yet been judged.

This is what makes the Hadean state of either bliss or torment seem unjust, when judgment comes after the punishment/reward. But Jesus said those who were dead would be called from their graves to judgment.
John 5:28-29 KJV — Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This seems to tell us that
1 "Hadean" torment is probably in the lake of fire, and
2 you have to be resurrected to be tormented

Revelation 20:14-15

 

[didactics]

Yes, what do futurists have in common with the Jews? They share a common belief, do you know it? It is the reason they rejected Jesus and his spiritual kingdom. It is one of the biggest reasons they killed him.

So, according to Hebrews 1:2 (Christ's earthly ministry was in the last days) and Hebrews 9:26 (Christ died and rose from the dead during the end of the age), the last days aka the end of the age has existed approximately as long as Biblical Israel itself existed between Joshua to Jerusalem A.D.70?

You calling it a spiritual kingdom does not sound right. The Lord's Prayer shows us something here. "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" (Mt 6:10). This shows me that there will no more be a separation of heaven and earth but the two will be in harmony. Paradise will be restored and it will take Christ's return to do so. The phrase, the coming of the Lord does invoke judgment of a nation and we did see that in 70 AD, but a global judgement a final sentence is still future.

 

[Derf]

Revelation 20:14-15

Yes, so people could be "in Hades" now and not yet be in fiery torment until after they've been judged, which would be a future event AFTER Christ's return to reign on the earth for 1000 years.

 

[Ephesians321]

The First Fruits are the Jewish Remnant (Jewish Elect) that died during the Great Tribulation A.D. 64-70.

Paul contrasts the Jewish Elect (Jewish-Christians) and Israel after the Flesh. Only the Jewish-Christians are true Israel after the Spirit and not after the flesh. All of spiritual Israel is saved. Romans 11:7-10, 25-27

Revelation 6:9-11*(1st Century Jewish-Christians) [*c.f. Matt. 23:29-38 please note Matt. 23:32, ]

Revelation 7:4-8 [1st Century Jewish remnant martyrs], 14-17 [c.f. 1st Century Jewish-Remnant martyrs shares same spiritual imagery with Revelation 21-22]; 14:1-4 [First Fruits], 9-11[Israel after the flesh]

Revelation 20:4 [1st Century martyrs including Jewish Remnant]

BABYLON, THE HARLOT OF REVELATION, WAS FIRST CENTURY JERUSALEM

1. The Harlot is called “Mystery Babylon.” Rev. 17:5 This suggests she is not the literal city of Babylon.

2. Babylon is the mother of harlots. Rev. 17:5 Israel/Jerusalem was repeatedly referred to as a harlot in the Old Testament.
A. “For their mother has played the harlot… for she said, ‘I will go after my lovers,’” Hosea 2:5, 4:15
B. “How the faithful city has become a harlot.” Is. 1:21
C. ”Upon every high hill and under every green tree you wander, playing the harlot.” Jer. 2:20, 5:7
D. “All her idols I make a desolation, for from the hire of a harlot she gathered them…” Micah 1:7
E. Extensive story of Jerusalem playing the harlot (“R-rated”). Ezek. 16
F. Another extensive story of Jerusalem (also “R-rated”) playing the harlot. Ezek. 23

3. Babylon is the Great City. Rev. 11:8, 17, 18
A. Roman historian, Pliny the Elder (AD 43-79), named Jerusalem “by far the most famous city” of the ancient orient.
B. The breath-taking beauty of Jerusalem caused the Jewish Rabbis to say, “Whoever has not seen Jerusalem in her splendor has never seen a beautiful city.”
C. “The Jerusalem temple was covered all over with plates of gold of great weight, and at first rising of the sun, reflected back a fiery splendor and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun’s own rays.” (Josephus, Jewish historian)
D. Jerusalem stood at the crossroads of trade between three continents.

4. Babylon is allegorically called Sodom. Rev. 11:8 Only Jerusalem/Israel is symbolically called Sodom in the Old Testament.
A. “Hear the word of the Lord you rulers of Sodom [Jerusalem].” Is. 1:10
B. “[Prophets of Jerusalem] have become to me like Sodom.” Jer. 23:14
C. Your sister is Sodom and you are much worse than she is (paraphrase). Ezek. 16:44-48
D. “Their [Israel’s] vine is the vine of Sodom.” Deut. 32:32

5. Babylon is allegorically called Egypt. Rev. 11:8
A. Guilty of Enslaving: “They [Jewish leadership] bind heavy burdens grievous to be borne and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them.” Mt. 23:4
B. In Slavery due to unbelief: “Jerusalem that exists now… she is in bondage with her children.” Gal. 4:24
C. Suffered from plagues due to unbelief. Rev.18:8

6. Babylon is the place “where their LORD was crucified.” Rev. 11:8 There is only one city this could be—Jerusalem. This alone is definitive.

7. The Babylon harlot was arrayed in scarlet, purple, gold, jewels, pearls… Rev. 17:4 The high priestly garments included colors of scarlet, purple and an assortment of twelve jewels sewn with golden thread. Ex. 28. The veil of the temple was similarly decorated and was, interestingly, from the city of Babylon (Josephus). The colors, jewels, and golden cup also suggest opulence, extravagance, decadence.

8. The inscription on the Harlot’s forehead: “Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abomination.” Rev. 17:7
The High Priest had a plate on his turban, “Holy to the LORD.” The harlot’s priestly colors, head inscription, and behavior were a scorching commentary on how far Jerusalem had fallen.

9. In her was found the blood of prophets and saints… Rev. 18:24
A. Jesus repeatedly called his people, “A wicked and adulterous generation.” Mt 16:4,12:39, Mk 8:38
B. “ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her…” Luke 13:33
C. “Upon you [unbelieving, first century Jews] may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah… Most certainly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Mt. 23:35-36

10. Harlot drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. Rev. 17:6 Persistent Jewish persecution of Christians.
A. Jesus, speaking to disciples: “Watch yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils. You will be beaten in synagogues….” Mark 13:9. “They will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons….” Luke 21:12.
B. Jesus speaking to Jewish leadership: “I send you prophets and wise men and scribes. Some of whom you will kill and crucify and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city….” Mt. 23: 34
C. Martyr of Stephen: “They threw him out of the city and stoned him.” Acts. 7:58
D. System for eradication of Christians/Christianity: “Saul… went to the high priest and asked for letters from him, to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of The Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.” Acts 9:1-2
E. Persecution of Christians by Jews throughout the Empire: “The Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions wait for me.” Acts. 20:23 (also Acts 8:1, 9:23, 20:3, 21:30-31, etc.)

11. Harlot is seated on the Beast/seven mountains (i.e. Rome). Rev. 17:3, 9 Jerusalem used the legal machinery of Rome to persecute Christians.
A. Chief priests and officers demanded Roman governor, Pilot, put Jesus to death. Jn 19:6, Acts 13:28
B. Jews attacked and dragged Paul before the Roman Tribunal in Achaia. Acts. 18:12
C. Jewish group made pact to kill Paul while he was in Roman custody due to false accusations. Acts 21-23
D. The high priest and elders accused Paul before Roman governor, Felix. Acts. 24:1-10
E. Chief priests and principal men of the Jews accused Paul to Roman governor, Festus. Acts. 25:2

12. The Beast (Rome) turns on the Harlot and makes her desolate. Rev. 17:15, 16 The former co-operative relationship of Jewish leadership and Rome changed suddenly with the zealot led rebellion starting in AD 66. Emperor Nero sent Vespasian to put down the rebellion that lasted 3 1/2 years. The deciding blow of the war was struck in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and burning of the temple. This was all perfectly prophesied by Jesus, 40 years earlier.
A. “Behold, your house is left to you desolate.” Matt. 23:38
B. “Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in the midst of her depart. Let those who are in the country not enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled…They will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Luke 21:21-22, 24
C. ”For the days will come on you, when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, surround you, hem you in on every side, and will dash you and your children within you to the ground. They will not leave in you one stone on another, because you didn't know the time of your visitation.".” Luke 19:43-44
D. “Do you see these great [temple] buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, which will not be thrown down.” Mark 13:2

13. “Babylon” had dominion over the kings of the earth. Rev. 17:18 Her former special position was due to the old covenantal relationship with Yahweh. “Jerusalem… is the city of the Great King." Matt. 5:35 Jerusalem was called “the Holy City.” Matt. 4:5, Matt. 27:53

14. The Book of Revelation was written to contemporaries of John with events to take place “soon,” “at hand,” etc. Thus, the harlot was first century Jerusalem. “Show…what must happen soon.” Rev. 1:1, "For the time is at hand.” Rev. 1:3, “things which are and the things that will happen hereafter.” Rev. 1:19, “There will no longer be delay.” Rev. 10:6, God is showing… ”Things which must happen soon.” Rev. 22:6.

 

[Ephesians321]

These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being FIRSTFRUITS to God and to the Lamb. Rev. 14:4

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:14

Christ was the FIRST FRUIT of the harvest. The word translated as FIRST FRUIT is ἀπαρχή (aparchē, Strong’s #536) and appears 8 other times in the NT. There can be no real dispute about its meaning. It means first in order of occurrence. Look at the other occurrences of the word:

Romans 8:23 – Paul speaks of those who had received “THE FIRST FRUIT of the Spirit.” That hearkens back to Acts 2 and the out–pouring of the Spirit on that auspicious day.

Romans 11:16 – Paul refers to Israel as the first lump of the dough and that was followed by the calling of the Gentiles into Israel’s promises. He says, if the first lump is holy, then the whole lump is holy. Order of occurrence is undeniable. There is discussion of the nature of the “lump.” For if the FIRSTFRUIT is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

In Romans 16:5, Paul spoke of Epenetus (ēp-ēʾnē-tŭs), a beloved co–worker, and he says that he was “a FIRST FRUIT of Achaia for Christ.” Many translations render this as “the first convert of Achaia.” Paul uses the word twice in the text before us, in v. 20 and 23.

In 1 Corinthians 16:15 Paul spoke of Stephanas (stĕfʾȧ-năs) who was another of “the FIRST FRUIT of Achaia.”

James 1:18 says that his audience was a type of FIRST FRUIT unto God, being converted at a very early time. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures.

In Revelation 14:2-4*, John saw the 144,000 who were the first fruit of those redeemed to God from man. The context shows that these were the first Jewish converts to Christ—they were not the first people to be raised physically from the dead.

(*Rom. 11:7, 26-28, Rev. 7:14-17; 21-22)

 

[Derf]

The First Fruits are the Jewish Remnant (Jewish Elect) that died during the Great Tribulation A.D. 64-70.

The first fruits of what? Resurrection? That doesn't seem right.

 

[Ephesians321]

The first fruits of what? Resurrection? That doesn't seem right.

The First Fruits are the 1st generation of Jewish-Christian martyrs that came out of the Great Tribulation (A.D.64-70). They are the first martyrs of Christ. Symbolized by numeral 144,000. Also, futurists have grossly misinterpreted 1 Thess. 4:15-17 and 2 Thess. 2:

The Same as the “Rapture?”

We saw earlier how allusions to the Day of Atonement and the Jubilee were used in connection with the gathering of the saints unto Christ. St. Paul uses similar language to describe the resurrection and “rapture”:

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (I Thess. 4:15-17)

The question becomes whether these passages describe the same event? Is the “catching up” to meet the Lord referred to in I Thess. 4:17 the same event as the “gathering” unto the Lord at his coming referred to in II Thess. 2:1? Although gathering unto the Lord and being caught up to meet him in the air are similar concepts and use similar terms, we believe the better view is that the two passages describe different events. II Thess. 2:1-12 deals with the eschatological gathering of the saints by martyrdom preceding the resurrection, I Thess. 4:15-17 deals with the catching up of living saints after the resurrection. Hence, the two passage clearly speak to different circumstances.

In I Thess. 4:15-17, the issue is whether those who perished in the Lord are lost forever. Paul assures his readers that they had not perished, but would be resurrected on the last day. Then, as those alive at Christ’s coming in turn experience physical death themselves, they would be caught up in the air to meet the Lord and be reunited with their loved ones in heaven. “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (II Cor. 5:1) This explains the similarity of language in I and II Thessalonians: both describe the same process of being gathered unto Christ by physical death, albeit at different times under different circumstances. Whether before or after the eschaton, both would be gathered home to Jesus in heaven.

Conclusion

The eschatological harvest spoke to the saints being gathered unto Christ by martyrdom under Nero, the “man of sin.” This time of gathering was restrained while Claudius was upon the throne, but when he was taken out of the way, Nero would ascend the throne and embrace a policy of persecution toward the church. Those alive at Christ’s return would be reunited with their loved ones after the eschaton, being caught up to meet the Lord in they air at the time of their own physical demise.

Further confirmed by:

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen Ephesians 3:21

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:9,14

The Rapture is a false doctrine built on a false promise that the Bible never taught. It is built on lies and deception.

Here are articles explaining who the Restrainer was and how he was removed and who the Man of Sin, Son of Perdition was and how he was revealed. If you you really want to enrich your knowledge and understanding or simply investigate my POV please read these articles.

 

[didactics]

The First Fruits are the 1st generation of Jewish-Christian martyrs that came out of the Great Tribulation (A.D.64-70). They are the first martyrs of Christ. Symbolized by numeral 144,000. Also, futurists have grossly misinterpreted 1 Thess. 4:15-17 and 2 Thess. 2:

The Same as the “Rapture?”

We saw earlier how allusions to the Day of Atonement and the Jubilee were used in connection with the gathering of the saints unto Christ. St. Paul uses similar language to describe the resurrection and “rapture”:

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (I Thess. 4:15-17)

The question becomes whether these passages describe the same event? Is the “catching up” to meet the Lord referred to in I Thess. 4:17 the same event as the “gathering” unto the Lord at his coming referred to in II Thess. 2:1? Although gathering unto the Lord and being caught up to meet him in the air are similar concepts and use similar terms, we believe the better view is that the two passages describe different events. II Thess. 2:1-12 deals with the eschatological gathering of the saints by martyrdom preceding the resurrection, I Thess. 4:15-17 deals with the catching up of living saints after the resurrection. Hence, the two passage clearly speak to different circumstances.

In I Thess. 4:15-17, the issue is whether those who perished in the Lord are lost forever. Paul assures his readers that they had not perished, but would be resurrected on the last day. Then, as those alive at Christ’s coming in turn experience physical death themselves, they would be caught up in the air to meet the Lord and be reunited with their loved ones in heaven. “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (II Cor. 5:1) This explains the similarity of language in I and II Thessalonians: both describe the same process of being gathered unto Christ by physical death, albeit at different times under different circumstances. Whether before or after the eschaton, both would be gathered home to Jesus in heaven.

Conclusion

The eschatological harvest spoke to the saints being gathered unto Christ by martyrdom under Nero, the “man of sin.” This time of gathering was restrained while Claudius was upon the throne, but when he was taken out of the way, Nero would ascend the throne and embrace a policy of persecution toward the church. Those alive at Christ’s return would be reunited with their loved ones after the eschaton, being caught up to meet the Lord in they air at the time of their own physical demise.

Further confirmed by:

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen Ephesians 3:21

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:9,14

The Rapture is a false doctrine built on a false promise that the Bible never taught. It is built on lies and deception.

Here are articles explaining who the Restrainer was and how he was removed and who the Man of Sin, Son of Perdition was and how he was revealed. If you you really want to enrich your knowledge and understanding or simply investigate my POV please read these articles.


View attachment 338642View attachment 338643View attachment 338644View attachment 338645

What we have a problem with is you saying the resurrection is already passed. Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection (1 Co 15:20). This caused us to be raised spiritually and at the same time guarantees that we will be raised bodily (see Ro 8:23).

 

[Ephesians321]

What we have a problem with is you saying the resurrection is already passed. Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection (1 Co 15:20). This caused us to be raised spiritually and at the same time guarantees that we will be raised bodily (see Ro 8:23).

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man [First Fruits of the Spiritual Resurrection] which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:14-16

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city [heaven] which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country [heaven]. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city [heaven] for them. Hebrews 11:8-10, 16

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken [heaven], let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Hebrews 12:28

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the  RESURRECTION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN. Matthew 22:29-30

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in  GLORY. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in  POWER. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT. HOWEVER, THE SPIRITUAL IS NOT FIRST, BUT THE NATURAL, AND AFTERWARD THE SPIRITUAL. THE FIRST MAN WAS OF THE EARTH, MADE OF DUST; THE SECOND MAN IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN. AS WAS THE MAN OF DUST, SO ALSO ARE THOSE MADE OF DUST; AND AS IS THE HEAVENLY MAN, SO ALSO ARE THOSE WHO ARE HEAVENLY. AND AS WE HAVE BORNE THE IMAGE OF THE MAN OF DUST, WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY MAN. Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.1 Corinthians 15:42-50

 

[didactics]

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man [First Fruits of the Spiritual Resurrection] which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:14-16

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city [heaven] which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country [heaven]. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city [heaven] for them. Hebrews 11:8-10, 16

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken [heaven], let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Hebrews 12:28

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the  RESURRECTION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN. Matthew 22:29-30

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in  GLORY. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in  POWER. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT. HOWEVER, THE SPIRITUAL IS NOT FIRST, BUT THE NATURAL, AND AFTERWARD THE SPIRITUAL. THE FIRST MAN WAS OF THE EARTH, MADE OF DUST; THE SECOND MAN IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN. AS WAS THE MAN OF DUST, SO ALSO ARE THOSE MADE OF DUST; AND AS IS THE HEAVENLY MAN, SO ALSO ARE THOSE WHO ARE HEAVENLY. AND AS WE HAVE BORNE THE IMAGE OF THE MAN OF DUST, WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY MAN. Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.1 Corinthians 15:42-50

15:50 flesh and blood. This phrase alludes to the weakness of earthly, human existence and is an equivalent to “perishable.” Paul is warning the Corinthians that without new “imperishable” bodies we “cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” How then can some deny the doctrine of the Resurrection?
ESV Reformation Study Bible


What you are teaching is a kind of gnosticism. Gnostics say that spirit is good, and matter, including the physical body, is evil.
God's work in salvation would be incomplete if it did not include the redemption of our bodies. And God would never be partial in his work.
You even bold face the words in the verse you're quoting, it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY (1 Co 15:44).

 

[Ephesians321]

15:50 flesh and blood. This phrase alludes to the weakness of earthly, human existence and is an equivalent to “perishable.” Paul is warning the Corinthians that without new “imperishable” bodies we “cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” How then can some deny the doctrine of the Resurrection?
ESV Reformation Study Bible


What you are teaching is a kind of gnosticism. Gnostics say that spirit is good, and matter, including the physical body, is evil.
God's work in salvation would be incomplete if it did not include the redemption of our bodies. And God would never be partial in his work.
You even bold face the words in the verse you're quoting, it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY (1 Co 15:44).

There is never going to a physical resurrection because our inheritance in Abraham is heaven itself where Christ reigns now upon the Throne of David and currently judges all the nations. Our inheritance is never going to be the Earth therefore any false ideals of a bodily resurrection is completely unnecessary.

Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying:

“Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out,
And He shall build the temple of the Lord; Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule on His throne;
So He shall be a priest on His throne,
And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’ Zechariah 6:12-13

The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteer In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. The Lord has sworn And will not relent,“You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
Psalm 110:1-4

Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:29-33

NO THRONE, NO KING, NO KING, NO PRIEST!


The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all [Heaven] was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle [Temple & Mosiac Covenant] was yet standing: Hebrews 9:8

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 9:24

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the END OF THE WORLD hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto SALVATION. [Heaven opens its gates with the A.D. 70 Parousia see Hebrews 9:8, Spiritual Resurrection accompanied with deliverance of the saints from their Jewish persecutors, the judgment of Jerusalem and Judea, and the destruction of Temple and Mosiac cultus ending its age with complete, absolute finality] Hebrews 9:26,28

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST [raised up to heaven from Hadean Paradise see Hebrews 9:8 & Revelation 20:4]: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds [upon our individual physical deaths], to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And if by physical Resurrection there is no marriages and we shall be like the angels IN HEAVEN yet the increase of His government will have no end, how?

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the  RESURRECTION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN. Matthew 22:29-30

Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:7

And what about the New Heaven and New Earth passages in Isaiah 65-66?

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. There shall be no more thence an infant [childbearing] of days, nor an old man [aging] that hath not filled his days : for the child shall die [death] an hundred years old; but the sinner [sin] being an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isaiah 65:17, 20

And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites [New Covenant priesthood], saith the Lord. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases [corpses - fall of Jerusalem A.D. 70] of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:21-22, 24

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing [healing] of the nations. Revelation 22:2

How is all of this possible with physical resurrection with no marriages?

I will tell you why:

Unto him be GLORY IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END, Amen. Ephesians 3:21





Hebrews 9:8, 28; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 see screenshots below----->

 

[didactics]

There is never going to a physical resurrection because our inheritance in Abraham is heaven itself where Christ reigns now upon the Throne of David and currently judges all the nations. Our inheritance is never going to be the Earth therefore any false ideals of a bodily resurrection is completely unnecessary.

Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying:

“Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out,
And He shall build the temple of the Lord; Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule on His throne;
So He shall be a priest on His throne,
And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’ Zechariah 6:12-13

The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteer In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. The Lord has sworn And will not relent,“You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
Psalm 110:1-4

Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:29-33

NO THRONE, NO KING, NO KING, NO PRIEST!


The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all [Heaven] was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle [Temple & Mosiac Covenant] was yet standing: Hebrews 9:8

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 9:24

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the END OF THE WORLD hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto SALVATION. [Heaven opens its gates with the A.D. 70 Parousia see Hebrews 9:8, Spiritual Resurrection accompanied with deliverance of the saints from their Jewish persecutors, the judgment of Jerusalem and Judea, and the destruction of Temple and Mosiac cultus ending its age with complete, absolute finality] Hebrews 9:26,28

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST [raised up to heaven from Hadean Paradise see Hebrews 9:8 & Revelation 20:4]: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds [upon our individual physical deaths], to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And if by physical Resurrection there is no marriages and we shall be like the angels IN HEAVEN yet the increase of His government will have no end, how?

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the  RESURRECTION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN. Matthew 22:29-30

Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:7

And what about the New Heaven and New Earth passages in Isaiah 65-66?

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. There shall be no more thence an infant [childbearing] of days, nor an old man [aging] that hath not filled his days : for the child shall die [death] an hundred years old; but the sinner [sin] being an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isaiah 65:17, 20

And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites [New Covenant priesthood], saith the Lord. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases [corpses - fall of Jerusalem A.D. 70] of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:21-22, 24

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing [healing] of the nations. Revelation 22:2

How is all of this possible with physical resurrection with no marriages?

I will tell you why:

Unto him be GLORY IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END, Amen. Ephesians 3:21





Hebrews 9:8, 28; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 see screenshots below----->



View attachment 338652View attachment 338653

Spoken like a true heretic.

There is never going to a physical resurrection

Heretics deny any earthly inheritance (see Mt 5:5).

NO THRONE, NO KING, NO KING, NO PRIEST!

I never said there's going to be no heaven because there's going to be a restored earth.
God made Jesus Lord by raising him from the dead. No one's arguing that his rulership is temporary. No, what I'm saying is that there is going to be a day when heaven is brought to earth.
Too often, eternity with God is pictured as sitting on clouds and playing harps.

And if by physical Resurrection there is no marriages and we shall be like the angels IN HEAVEN yet the increase of His government will have no end, how?

This just simply means there will be no more need for births.

Matthew Henry's Commentary
It seems, there were some Sadducees, some such monsters, among professing Christians, some among you, that say, There is no resurrection of the dead (1 Cor. 15:12) and some that did in effect deny it, by turning it into an allegory, saying, The resurrection is past already.

 

[Derf]

The First Fruits are the 1st generation of Jewish-Christian martyrs that came out of the Great Tribulation (A.D.64-70). They are the first martyrs of Christ. Symbolized by numeral 144,000. Also, futurists have grossly misinterpreted 1 Thess. 4:15-17 and 2 Thess. 2:

I guess my question should have been, "Why did you bring up the idea of 'first fruits' in relation to the 1st generation of martyrs coming out of the great tribulation. What scripture are you thinking about there?