Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[didactics]

Eternal death to me is eternal estrangement and separation from God which happened immediately to Adam and Eve. They were expelled from the Garden and the way was guarded by Cherubim and a flaming sword. The saved and the lost were both resurrected in A.D. 70 and judged. Rev. 20 is speaking about strictly spiritual matters not natural earthly matters.

Here is an important article on Hadean death and what the 1,000 years truly represent:

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The resurrection has not happened yet, for a physical resurrection would need to happen. Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection because in bodily form he came to life, and it's beside the point that others were raised to life before him. Only Christ was raised and did not die again like others before him. That is the kind of resurrection he is the first fruits of.

 

[Ephesians321]

The resurrection has not happened yet, for a physical resurrection would need to happen. Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection because in bodily form he came to life, and it's beside the point that others were raised to life before him. Only Christ was raised and did not die again like others before him. That is the kind of resurrection he is the first fruits of.

The Bible gives 3 scenarios of Jesus’s second coming that appear to conflict.
A. He would come on the clouds, with a trumpet, a host of angels, and great glory. Matt. 24:30-31
B. He would come in the same way he left, quietly in a cloud.
Acts. 1:9-11
C. He would come without observation, spiritually. Luke 17:20

How would the disciples have understood cloud language and events?
A. The disciples would have been well aware of the cloud as representational of Divine Power. The glory of the Lord appeared in a cloud over the tabernacle. Ex 16:10
Yahweh appeared as a thick cloud to the Israelites at Sinai. Ex. 19:9
God appeared to the high priest in a cloud in the Holy of Holies. Lev. 16:2 Yahweh came in a cloud to speak with Moses. Num 11:25
The Lord filled the temple with an awesome cloud at the dedication of the temple. 2 Ch 5:13
B. The disciples knew well the history of the faithful guiding presence of the Exodus cloud. The pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not leave the people. Ex. 13:22
C. The disciples would have viewed the ascension cloud as an expression of Jesus’s divine nature. The Son of Man came with the clouds to receive the Kingdom. Dan. 7:13
There is none like Yahweh who rides the heavens and clouds. Deut. 33:26.
Extol Him who rides on the clouds. Ps. 68:4
Who makes the clouds thy chariot, who rides on the wings of the wind. Ps. 104:3
The LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt.
Is. 19:1
God spoke from the cloud, identifying Jesus as His beloved Son. Mt. 17:5

Instead of being elevated to heaven on a cloud, one could draw from the text, that Jesus was “subsumed” into the cloud, in unity with the glory of the Father (“Divine Cloud”). The disciples stood spellbound as they watched Jesus disappear into the cloud. “When he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight. .” Acts 1:9-10

Jesus’s incarnation was temporary for his earthly ministry (from conception to ascension).
A. “[Jesus] existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.” 2 Phil. 2:6-8
B. “Even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more..” Jn 4:24
C. “God is Spirit.” Jn. 4:24
D. Hebrews speaks of the days of Jesus’s flesh as past: “…who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death — with strong crying and tears — having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered — the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation…” Heb. 5:7-9
E. Jesus asked the Father for his divine glory to be restored: “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.” Jn. 17:5

Jesus had an earthly, non-glorified body for the 40 days after the resurrection and before his ascension.
A. During his ministry, Jesus could command the sea and wind, calmly elude a crowd that was trying to kill him, cause an overwhelming catch of fish, heal all kinds of physical maladies and raise the dead. Appearing in a locked room, after his resurrection was, in no way, beyond these miracles. Jn 20:26
B. Jesus’s body still had scars from his crucifixion and piercing. Jn 20:20 C. Jesus conveys in his “do not touch me,” words to Mary, that the coming ascension will “complete” the resurrection. “Don't hold me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father….” Jn 20:17
D. The innate glory of Jesus was shown during the transfiguration. “His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light.” Mt. 17:1f (This was not evident in the 40 days before his ascension.)
E. “See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, as you see that I have." Luke 24:39

Jesus was glorified (exalted) at the ascension. This made possible the pouring forth of the Holy Spirit.
A. “He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water." But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn't yet glorified.” John 7:38-39
B. “Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I don't go away, the Counselor won't come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.” Jn 16:7
C. “Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.”
Acts 2:33
D. “Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name.” Phil. 2:9

Jesus’s second coming was not bodily. It took place in the first century.
A. Jesus said he would come in the glory of the Father and the Father never came in a body. “He [Jesus] comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels.” Luke 9:26
B. “But I tell you the truth: There are some of those who stand here, who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27

John, an intimate apostle of Jesus, did not know what Jesus was like after His ascension. “Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.” 1 John 3:2. (speaking of the New Covenant beginning AD 70 and spiritual sight)

Jesus came silently, spiritually. He is with us now without a physical presence.
A. "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation.” Luke 17:20
B. “the Kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21
C. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world” i.e. not visible. Jn 18:36
D. “Unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Jn 3:3 (Not visible with physical eyes.)
E. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?” 2 Cor. 13:5
F. “Remain in me and I in you.” Jn. 15:4
G. “He who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, doth remain in me, and I in him.” Jn 6:56 (Very clearly symbolic)

 

[Ephesians321]

The “day of the Lord” was an oft repeated occurrence in the Old Testament and never involved a physical appearance of Yahweh. However, what was visible was the utter devastation left by His judgment. With the New Testament anticipation of Jesus’ “Day of the Lord” we are told he would come in the “glory of the Father” (Lk. 9:26). Jesus came invisibly in judgment just as his Father had, but that which was visible was the utter ruin of Israel, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the heart of the Jewish State. These events sealed the fulfillment of all prophecy and ushered in the fullness of the spiritual Kingdom of God. Please note the use of Hebraic apocalyptic hyperbolic language through-out and cloud reference in #2.

1. Yahweh used the Assyrians to Defeat Israel, 721 BC.
Day of the LORD: “Woe to you that desire the day of the LORD!..[It] is darkness and not light…” Amos 5:18f
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “For behold the LORD is coming forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will be molten under him and the valleys will be cleft like wax before the fire …” Micah 1:3-4

2. Yahweh used Sargon of Assyria to Defeat Egypt, circa 712 BC.
Day of the LORD: “Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and shall come to Egypt…” Isaiah 19:1
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt in its midst.” Is. 19:1 (see ch. 19-20)

3. Yahweh used Nebuchadnezzar to Defeat Pharaoh at Carchemish, 605 BC.
Day of the LORD: “…Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…” Jer. 46:10
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “For they shall march with an army, and come against her with axes, as wood cutters. They shall cut down her forest, says Yahweh, though it can't be searched; because they are more than the locusts, and are innumerable.” Jer. 46:22-23

4. Yahweh used the Babylonians to Defeat Jerusalem, 586 BC.
Day of the LORD: “For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation.” Jer. 4:27
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…the heavens had no light, the mountains were quaking and all the hills moved back and forth…there was no man, and all the birds of the sky had fled…the earth shall mourn and the heavens above be black…" Jer. 4:23-29

5. Yahweh used the Babylonians to Defeat Edom, 583 BC.
Day of the LORD: “For the LORD has a day of vengeance…” Is. 34:8
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “All the host of sky shall be dissolved, and the sky shall roll up like a scroll. All their hosts shall fall…the Lord has a sword. It is sated with blood, it is gorged with fat….Its streams will be turned into pitch, its dust into sulfur, and its land will become burning pitch.” Isaiah 34:4,5,9

6. Yahweh used the Medes to Defeat Babylon, 539 BC.
Day of the LORD: “Behold the day the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger to make the earth a desolation." Isaiah 13:9
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…The stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. I will make people more rare than fine gold… Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger…” Isaiah 13:10-13

7. The Son of Man used the Romans to Defeat Israel AD 67-70.
Day of the LORD: “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night…you* are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” I These. 5:2-4. (see also I Cor. 1:8)
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, … they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory….” Matt. 24:29f

* Paul was writing to first century believers (circa AD 52) some of whom would witness this event. Note: Day of the Lord=Coming of the Lord=Coming of the Son of Man= coming in clouds=the day of Christ=the second coming=that day

 

[Ephesians321]

Parousia means presence and refers to what is commonly called the “second coming” of Christ. This is a complete list of the occurrences of the word in the New Testament for personal study.
”Parousia” is generally used in reference to an extended visit—perhaps 3.5 years.

1. Matt. 24:3. And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, ‘Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence (parousia) and of the full end of the age?’

2. Matt 24:27 … as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the presence (parousia) of the Son of Man.

3. Matt 24:37 …and as the days of Noah — so shall be also the presence (parousia) of the Son of Man.

4. Matt 24:39. …and they did not know till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the presence (parousia) of the Son of Man.

5. I Cor 15:22-23. …for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in his presence (parousia).

6. I Thess 2:19. for what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in his presence (parousia)?

7. I Thess 3:13. …and you the Lord cause to increase and to abound in the love to one another, and to all, even as we also to you, 13 to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification before our God and Father, in the presence (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

8. I Thess. 4:15f. …for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living — who do remain over to the presence (parousia) of the Lord — may not precede those asleep, 16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven.

9. I Thess. 5:23-24. …and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ; stedfast is He who is calling you, who also will do [it].

10. II Thess. 2:1-2. And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him, that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

11. II Thess. 2:8… and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence (parousia).

12. James 5:7 Be patient, then, brethren, till the presence (parousia) of the Lord; lo, the husbandman doth
expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain — early and latter;

13. James 5:8 Be patient, ye also; establish your hearts, because the presence (parousia) of the Lord hath drawn nigh;

14. 2 Peter 1:16. For, skillfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you the power and presence (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, but eye-witnesses having become of his majesty —

15. 2 Peter 3:3-4 … there shall come in the latter end of the days scoffers, according to their own desires going on, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of his presence (parousia) for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation.

16. 2 Peter 3:11-12. what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts? 12 waiting for and hastening to the presence (parousia) of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;

17. I John 2:28. And now, little children, remain in him, that when he may be manifested, we may have boldness, and may not be ashamed before him, in his presence (parousia).

NOTE: Parousia is also used pertaining to “the lawless one.” II Thess. 2:8,9 And then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, [him,] whose presence is according to the working of the adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders.

NOTE: The N.T. also references the parousia of people: I Cor. 16:17, 2 Cor. 7:6-7, 2 Cor. 10:10, Phil. 1:26., Phil. 2:12

 

[didactics]

Jesus had an earthly, non-glorified body for the 40 days after the resurrection and before his ascension.

C. Jesus conveys in his “do not touch me,” words to Mary, that the coming ascension will “complete” the resurrection. “Don't hold me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father….” Jn 20:17

Let's just focus on this. You say non-glorified body? I'm not sure what this means to be honest.

17Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

The "do not touch me" does not convey that his resurrected body ends at ascension, only that his physical presence would not be with them.

2 Timothy 2:16-18
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

Psalm 98:9
For He is coming to judge the earth.
With righteousness He shall judge the world,
And the peoples with equity.

If you think the day of the Lord who comes in judgement only pertains to that in 70 AD, you miss something essential here. Yes, he did come in judgment when he predicted the destruction of the jewish temple in 70 AD, but Psalm 98:9 shows us he will judge the world, not just the nation of Israel.

 

[Ephesians321]

Let's just focus on this. You say non-glorified body? I'm not sure what this means to be honest.

17Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

The "do not touch me" does not convey that his resurrected body ends at ascension, only that his physical presence would not be with them.

2 Timothy 2:16-18
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

Psalm 98:9
For He is coming to judge the earth.
With righteousness He shall judge the world,
And the peoples with equity.

If you think the day of the Lord who comes in judgement only pertains to that in 70 AD, you miss something essential here. Yes, he did come in judgment when he predicted the destruction of the jewish temple in 70 AD, but Psalm 98:9 shows us he will judge the world, not just the nation of Israel.

Was 2 Timothy 2:16-18 written prior to A.D. 70 or after A.D. 70?
And he did judge the world continues to judge the world according to the Hadean vision of Rev. 20:10-15. Including satanic personifications that persecuted the saints. The Jewish Remnant (Jewish Elect) were 1st Century Jewish-Christians (First Fruits) martyred during the Great Tribulation A.D. 66-70. Romans 11:7, 26-28, Rev. 6:9-11, 7:14-17 (please note the parallel imagery of this passage with Rev. 21-22, and why do the nations still need healing? Rev. 22:2), 14:1-4, 20:4.

Other examples of First Fruits being used in the NT:

Christ was the first fruit of the harvest. The word translated as first fruit is ἀπαρχή (aparchē, Strong’s #536) and appears 8 other times in the NT. There can be no real dispute about its meaning. It means first in order of occurrence. Look at the other occurrences of the word:

Romans 8:23 – Paul speaks of those who had received “the first fruit of the Spirit.” That hearkens back to Acts 2 and the out–pouring of the Spirit on that auspicious day.

Romans 11:16 – Paul refers to Israel as the first piece of the dough and that was followed by the calling of the Gentiles into Israel’s promises. He says, if the first lump is holy, then the whole lump is holy. Order of occurrence is undeniable. There is discussion of the nature of the “lump.”

In Romans 16:5, Paul spoke of Epenetus (ēp-ēʾnē-tŭs), a beloved co–worker, and he says that he was “a first fruit of Achaia for Christ.” Many translations render this as “the first convert of Achaia.” Paul uses the word twice in the text before us, in v. 20 and 23.

In 1 Corinthians 16:15 Paul spoke of Stephanas (stĕfʾȧ-năs) who was another of “the first fruit of Achaia.”

James 1:18 says that his audience was a type of first fruit unto God, being converted at a very early time.

In Revelation 14:2-4*, John saw the 144,000 who were the first fruit of those redeemed to God from man. The context shows that these were the first Jewish converts to Christ—they were not the first people to be raised physically from the dead.

(*Rom. 11:7, 26-28, Rev. 7:14-17; 21-22)

Let's not forget this:

Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen. Ephesians 3:21

 

[didactics]

Was 2 Timothy 2:16-18 written prior to A.D. 70 or after A.D. 70?

Should it really matter whether 2 Timothy 2:16-18 were written prior to 70 AD? The charge was pretty serious. If it was written about 66 AD and you think the resurrection happened in 70 AD, then he was only 4 years off.

 

[Derf]

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Ok. But that doesn't negate anything I've said. The same word is used in the same chapter, and he's saying the second usage CANNOT be the same as the first. I'm disagreeing with him, as he has no basis for such a position, except that he needs to support his agenda. I'm not (at this point) even saying his agenda is wrong...it might be right. But it clouds his judgment. And it's clouding yours, too.

 

[Ephesians321]

Should it really matter whether 2 Timothy 2:16-18 were written prior to 70 AD? The charge was pretty serious. If it was written about 66 AD and you think the resurrection happened in 70 AD, then he was only 4 years off.

He was five or six years off. And it makes all the difference in the world because it wasn't a past event. The Parousia hadn't happened yet.

Hymenaeus and Philetus were Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9)

And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “THE LORD KNOWS THOSE WHO ARE HIS," and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” II Timothy 2:17-19

Paul pointedly quotes from Numbers 16:5:

and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning THE LORD WILL SHOW WHO IS HIS AND WHO IS HOLY, and will cause him to come near to Him. That one whom He chooses He will cause to come near to Him. But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Numbers 16:5, 30-33

Hymenaeus and Philetus simply were stating that the Resurrection had already occured while the Temple and Jerusalem still stood. Jesus had not avenged the blood of the saints and martyrs yet, Israel had not filled up the full measure of her sins yet, the parousia and salvation had not happened yet, and therefore the Spiritual Resurrection from Hadean Paradise had not occurred yet.

Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; THE HOLY SPIRIT INDICATING THIS, THAT THE WAY INTO THE HOLIEST OF ALL WAS NOT YET MADE MANIFEST WHILE THE FIRST TABERNACLE WAS STILL STANDING. It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; BUT NOW, ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGES, HE HAS APPEARED TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION.
Hebrews 9:6-10, 23-28

In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

“For the Lord will judge His people (Jerusalem A.D. 70)
And have compassion on His servants (1st Century Church),
When He sees that their power is gone, Deuteronomy 32:36

Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; AND WHEN THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY SHATTERED, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED (Jerusalem A.D. 70) Daniel 12:7

When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (see Col. 1:6, 23; Rom. 1:8; 16:25-26)


Assuredly, I say to you, THERE ARE SOME STANDING HERE WHO SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH TILL they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

Assuredly, I say to you, ALL THESE THINGS WILL COME UPON THIS GENERATION. Matthew 23:36

Truly I tell you, this generation will CERTAINLY WILL NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED Matthew 24:34 (see Daniel 12:7)

 

[Ephesians321]

Ok. But that doesn't negate anything I've said. The same word is used in the same chapter, and he's saying the second usage CANNOT be the same as the first. I'm disagreeing with him, as he has no basis for such a position, except that he needs to support his agenda. I'm not (at this point) even saying his agenda is wrong...it might be right. But it clouds his judgment. And it's clouding yours, too.

He doesn't have an agenda.

Beyom = "in this day" or "on this day"
Yom = "day"

Is the serpent tempting Adam "on this day" that his eyes will be opened or his eyes will be opened hundreds of years later?

 

[didactics]

He was five or six years off. And it makes all the difference in the world because it wasn't a past event. The Parousia hadn't happened yet.

Still, that is a very serious charge for something that was supposedly fulfilled five or six years after if the resurrection is only spiritual.

And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “THE LORD KNOWS THOSE WHO ARE HIS," and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” II Timothy 2:17-19

You, as a full preterist is the only one saying that the resurrection is past. Why do you suppose the charge was so serious against them if they also thought the resurrection was only spiritual.

Hymenaeus and Philetus simply were stating that the Resurrection had already occured while the Temple and Jerusalem still stood. Jesus had not avenged the blood of the saints and martyrs yet, Israel had not filled up the full measure of her sins yet, the parousia and salvation had not happened yet, and therefore the Spiritual Resurrection from Hadean Paradise had not occurred yet.

Ah, but the penitent thief on the cross was told he would be with Christ that day in paradise. His death that day was his entrance to paradise (Lk 23:43).

“For the Lord will judge His people (Jerusalem A.D. 70)

What was predicted is the sacrificial system would come to an end and it obviously did when the temple was destroyed. But the judgment of all the nations is still future as I pointed out in Psalm 98:9.

 

[Derf]

I like your replies here, where you give scripture and accompany it with your understanding of the text. But I want to push back on your 3 conflicting return modes and some other things.

The Bible gives 3 scenarios of Jesus’s second coming that appear to conflict.
A. He would come on the clouds, with a trumpet, a host of angels, and great glory. Matt. 24:30-31
B. He would come in the same way he left, quietly in a cloud.
Acts. 1:9-11
C. He would come without observation, spiritually. Luke 17:20

A and B don't seem to be exclusive. In B, the emphasis doesn't appear to be on the volume of his departure, but on the direction (away from earth, so He would return by coming back to earth) and material (received into clouds, so he would
come from the clouds in returning).

How would the disciples have understood cloud language and events?
A. The disciples would have been well aware of the cloud as representational of Divine Power. The glory of the Lord appeared in a cloud over the tabernacle. Ex 16:10
Yahweh appeared as a thick cloud to the Israelites at Sinai. Ex. 19:9
God appeared to the high priest in a cloud in the Holy of Holies. Lev. 16:2 Yahweh came in a cloud to speak with Moses. Num 11:25

The Lord filled the temple with an awesome cloud at the dedication of the temple. 2 Ch 5:13
B. The disciples knew well the history of the faithful guiding presence of the Exodus cloud. The pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not leave the people. Ex. 13:22
C. The disciples would have viewed the ascension cloud as an expression of Jesus’s divine nature. The Son of Man came with the clouds to receive the Kingdom. Dan. 7:13
There is none like Yahweh who rides the heavens and clouds. Deut. 33:26.
Extol Him who rides on the clouds. Ps. 68:4
Who makes the clouds thy chariot, who rides on the wings of the wind. Ps. 104:3
The LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt.
Is. 19:1
God spoke from the cloud, identifying Jesus as His beloved Son. Mt. 17:5

Instead of being elevated to heaven on a cloud, one could draw from the text, that Jesus was “subsumed” into the cloud, in unity with the glory of the Father (“Divine Cloud”). The disciples stood spellbound as they watched Jesus disappear into the cloud. “When he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight. .” Acts 1:9-10

Jesus’s incarnation was temporary for his earthly ministry (from conception to ascension).

I think this is false, because it suggests Jesus is not eternally man after His incarnation.

A. “[Jesus] existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.” 2 Phil. 2:6-8
B. “Even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more..” Jn 4:24

This doesn't have to mean that Jesus was no longer flesh, but that He was not accessible to the church in His flesh.

C. “God is Spirit.” Jn. 4:24
D. Hebrews speaks of the days of Jesus’s flesh as past: “…who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death — with strong crying and tears — having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered — the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation…” Heb. 5:7-9

Again, there are other ways to read that passage. Flesh might mean the kind that can die, as opposed to the kind that wouldn't die after His resurrection.
https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb. 5.7-9

E. Jesus asked the Father for his divine glory to be restored: “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.” Jn. 17:5

Can a fleshly body be glorified? We know it can from the transfiguration.
https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John. 17.5

Jesus had an earthly, non-glorified body for the 40 days after the resurrection and before his ascension.

Yes. Later it was glorified.

A. During his ministry, Jesus could command the sea and wind, calmly elude a crowd that was trying to kill him, cause an overwhelming catch of fish, heal all kinds of physical maladies and raise the dead. Appearing in a locked room, after his resurrection was, in no way, beyond these miracles. Jn 20:26

Agreed.
https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John 20.26

B. Jesus’s body still had scars from his crucifixion and piercing. Jn 20:20

But possibly in the process of healing.

C. Jesus conveys in his “do not touch me,” words to Mary, that the coming ascension will “complete” the resurrection. “Don't hold me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father….” Jn 20:17

That's not clear in the text, that the resurrection wasn't completed.

,. The innate glory of Jesus was shown during the transfiguration. “His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light.” Mt. 17:1f (This was not evident in the 40 days before his ascension.)
E. “See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, as you see that I have." Luke 24:39

Jesus was glorified (exalted) at the ascension. This made possible the pouring forth of the Holy Spirit.
A. “He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water." But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn't yet glorified.” John 7:38-39
B. “Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I don't go away, the Counselor won't come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.” Jn 16:7
C. “Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.”
Acts 2:33
D. “Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name.” Phil. 2:9

None of which requires Jesus to not be incarnate any more.

Jesus’s second coming was not bodily. It took place in the first century.
A. Jesus said he would come in the glory of the Father and the Father never came in a body. “He [Jesus] comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels.” Luke 9:26

Again, a human with a body can be glorified.

B. “But I tell you the truth: There are some of those who stand here, who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27

It's an assumption that the kingdom as spoken here requires Jesus' return.

John, an intimate apostle of Jesus, did not know what Jesus was like after His ascension. “Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.” 1 John 3:2. (speaking of the New Covenant beginning AD 70 and spiritual sight)

John didn't see Jesus fully glorified.

Jesus came silently, spiritually. He is with us now without a physical presence.
A. "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation.” Luke 17:20
B. “the Kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21
C. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world” i.e. not visible. Jn 18:36
D. “Unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Jn 3:3 (Not visible with physical eyes.)
E. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?” 2 Cor. 13:5
F. “Remain in me and I in you.” Jn. 15:4

This was all written before 70AD.

G. “He who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, doth remain in me, and I in him.” Jn 6:56 (Very clearly symbolic)

Agreed, but not about His return, hence "remain".

He doesn't have an agenda.

You do. Why wouldn't he? I'm saying that our systematic will guide our thinking, for good or for bad.

Beyom = "in this day" or "on this day"
Yom = "day"

Is the serpent tempting Adam "on this day" that his eyes will be opened or his eyes will be opened hundreds of years later?

It doesn't matter which. We're talking about what God said and what He meant.

 

[didactics]

It doesn't matter which. We're talking about what God said and what He meant.

Exactly, what God said and what Adam understood is that he would begin to die, not physically die immediately. The threat was very clear-- bring forth sin (on the day, spiritual death), and physical death is sure to follow. That's what sin does, sin fully conceived brings forth death (James 1:14-16).

 

[Ephesians321]

Still, that is a very serious charge for something that was supposedly fulfilled five or six years after if the resurrection is only spiritual.

You, as a full preterist is the only one saying that the resurrection is past. Why do you suppose the charge was so serious against them if they also thought the resurrection was only spiritual.

Ah, but the penitent thief on the cross was told he would be with Christ that day in paradise. His death that day was his entrance to paradise (Lk 23:43).

What was predicted is the sacrificial system would come to an end and it obviously did when the temple was destroyed. But the judgment of all the nations is still future as I pointed out in Psalm 98:9.

I gave you the reasons the resurrection had not happened because the Parousia (presence) had not happened yet, Christ had not avenged the blood of the prophets and saints, Israel had not filled the full measure of sins, Christ had not judged Jerusalem, and the Temple still stood. There is no such thing as a Rapture but a Parousia. Jesus judged Jerusalem and the nations in A.D. 70. He snatched the Christians away from Jerusalem and kept them safe from the impending judgment. They watched signs. Just like the days of Noah, the wicked were taken and destroyed not the righteous. And the signs were plenty.

Full preterism fully honors all of Christ's, the Apostle's, and Prophets time statements. We do not call them false prophets. The New Testament was written for a 1st Century audience not a 21st Century audience especially Revelation.

How is it futurists overlook the present tense of these two passages that speak about Christ's earthly ministry occuring during the last days and his death occuring during the end of the age:

IN THESE LAST DAYS has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. Hebrews 1:2

If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, HE HAS APPEARED AT THE END OF THE AGE TO REMOVE SIN BY HIS OWN DEATH AS A SACRIFICE. Hebrews 9:26

 

[Ephesians321]

when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:22

HAS IN THESE LAST DAYS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2

He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; BUT NOW, ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGES, HE HAS APPEARED TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF Hebrews 9:26

 

[didactics]

Full preterism fully honors all of Christ's, the Apostle's, and Prophets time statements. We do not call them false prophets. The New Testament was written for a 1st Century audience not a 21st Century audience especially Revelation.

The appeal of the Bible is universal; addressed to all humanity.
While certain parts of the Scripture are written to individuals and other parts to specific groups, even these have both special and universal application. It is not just written to a 1st century audience.

How is it futurists overlook the present tense of these two passages that speak about Christ's earthly ministry occuring during the last days and his death occuring during the end of the age:

There may be a lot to disagree about with futurists, but full preterists mess with the very framework of things, omitting what they don't understand. You do not love the Lord's appearing because you think it's only small and localized to a 1st century audience (see 2 Ti 4:8).

 

[Ephesians321]

The appeal of the Bible is universal; addressed to all humanity.
While certain parts of the Scripture are written to individuals and other parts to specific groups, even these have both special and universal application. It is not just written to a 1st century audience.

There may be a lot to disagree about with futurists, but full preterists mess with the very framework of things, omitting what they don't understand. You do not love the Lord's appearing because you think it's only small and localized to a 1st century audience (see 2 Ti 4:8).

Futurists are the ones messing with the framework, both the Greek and Hebrew words for "world" and "earth" can interchangeably be used to also mean region, country, and land.

Meanwhile, nations simply means clan, tribe, or race of people. Not our modern definition by any means. Like I said it was written for 1st Century audience that grasped their languages alot better than we modern readers do. Here is an example from Revelation 1:7.

 

[Derf]

Exactly, what God said and what Adam understood is that he would begin to die, not physically die immediately. The threat was very clear-- bring forth sin (on the day, spiritual death), and physical death is sure to follow. That's what sin does, sin fully conceived brings forth death (James 1:14-16).

I think that's one way to look at it. Another is that they died within the era that they ate of the tree. That's probably where some people get the idea that the earth will only last about 7000 years (each 1000 counting for 1 day). Adam died "in that day".

 

[Ephesians321]

1. JUDGMENT WAS DIRECTED TO THOSE “DWELLING UPON THE EARTH (ge).” FIRST CENTURY ISRAEL WAS THE NATION, “DWELLING UPON THE LAND (ge).” The Greek word “ge” [Strongs: #1093] is translated as “earth” at times and “land” at times. But to twenty-first century readers, they do not mean the same thing. Earth is generally conceptualized as “planet earth” and “land” implies a more limited territory. The intent of the word in scripture is limited, as in the land of Egypt, the land of Israel, etc. and has nothing to do with an entire globe earth.

A. Old Testament: The “people of the land” were the Jews.
1) “…tell the people of the land, thus says the Lord…” Ezek 12:19,
2) “…when the people of the land shall come before Yahweh…” Ezek 46:9
3) “All the people of the land went to the house of Baal, and broke it down…” 2 Kgs 11:18
4) “…sixty men of the people of the land…” 2 Kgs 25:19
5) “…he took an officer…who mustered the people of the land…” Jer 52:25

B. “Ge” means land. Those “dwelling upon the land” were the Jews. (We took the liberty to render “ge”, consistently as “land” in these verses.)
1) “Hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world*, to try those dwelling upon the land.” Rev. 3:10
2) ’Woe, woe, woe, to those dwelling upon the land.” Rev. 8:13
3) “The two prophets did torment those dwelling upon the land.” Rev. 11:10
4) “All who dwell on the land will worship him [beast], everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life…” Rev. 13:8
5) “He [second beast] exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. He makes the land and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.” Rev. 13:12
6) “It [second beast] deceives those living on land with the signs that it is allowed to do on behalf of the first beast, telling them to make an image for the beast…” Rev. 13:14
7) Harlot “with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality, and those who dwell in the land were made drunken with the wine of her sexual immorality.” Rev. 17:2
8)“The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the land and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.” Rev. 17:8
9) “Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the land will mourn over him.” Rev. 1:7

2. “EVERY TRIBE, TONGUE, PEOPLE, NATION” WAS ANOTHER WAY TO REFERENCE THE JEWS. “There were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews…from every nation under the sky. 6 When this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were bewildered, because everyone heard them speaking in his own language. 7 They were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Behold, aren't all these who speak, Galileans? 8 How do we hear, everyone in our own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, 10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, the parts of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabians: we hear them speaking in our languages the mighty works of God!" Acts. 2:5-11

A. “They sang a new song, saying, ‘You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation.’” Rev. 5:9
B. “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” Rev. 7:9
C. “They told me, ‘You must prophesy again over many peoples, nations, languages, and kings.’” Rev. 10:11
D. “From among the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations people will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.” Rev. 11:9
E. “Authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation was given to him [the beast]. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written…in the book of life…” Rev. 13:8
F. “I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal Good News to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth [ge], and to every nation, tribe, language, and people." Rev. 14:6
G. “He said to me, ‘The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.’” Rev. 17:15

3. ANCIENT ISRAEL WAS WARNED OF A SEVEN-FOLD JUDGMENT. FIRST CENTURY ZEALOT-LED ISRAEL WAS THE RECIPIENT OF THE SEVEN BOWLS OF JUDGMENT.

A. Leviticus 26 prophesied the seven-fold punishment that would fall on Israel if they persisted in sin. Only repentance could restore them.
• “If you… will not listen to me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.” Lev. 26:18
• “If you…won’t listen to me… I will bring seven times more plagues on you according to your sins.” Lev. 26:21
• “If…you…walk contrary to me… I will strike you… seven times for your sins.” Lev 26:23-24
• “If you…walk contrary to me… I will chastise you seven times for your sins.” Lev. 26:27-28

B. The seven bowls of God’s wrath were poured on “the earth” or “the land” (Greek: ge).
• “And I heard a great voice out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers, 'Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth.’” Rev.16:1-2
• The greek word “ge” means “land” or “earth”. Taken in its first century context, it refers to a limited territory. For example: land (ge) of Egypt, land (ge) of Sodom and Gomorrah, land (ge) of Israel. (It was not a “global” term.)

C. The third bowl judgment was poured out on the people who shed the blood of the prophets. Only Israel shed the blood of the prophets.
“The third poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water…for they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” Rev. 16:6
• Jesus declared, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her!” Mt. 23:37
• Stephen addressed the Jews: “Which of the prophets didn't your fathers persecute? They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One, of whom you have now become betrayers and murderers.” Acts 7:52

D. The fifth bowl judgment was aimed at the “seat of the beast” and describes first century Israel (not Rome). “And the fifth messenger did pour out his vial upon the throne of the beast, and his kingdom did become darkened, and they were gnawing their tongues from the pain, and they did speak evil of the God of the heaven, from their pains, and from their sores, and they did not reform from their works." Rev. 16:10
• Kingdom of the Beast in pain: “…the hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew everything, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch and endured to eat them; nor did they… abstain from girdles and shoes and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed…” Wars 6.3.3
• Zealots mocked God: “These men [zealots], therefore, trampled upon all the laws of man, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracle of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers.” Wars. 4.6.3
• Syllogism: The seven-fold judgments were directed at Israel. The fifth of the seven-fold judgments was directed at the Beast. Therefore, first century Israel was the Beast.

4. THE BEAST WAS DESTROYED BY FIRE. JERUSALEM AND ITS PEOPLE WERE DESTROYED BY FIRE. “The beast is slain, and his body has been destroyed, and given to the burning fire.” Dan. 7:11
“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him… the two were cast living into the lake of the fire that is burning with brimstone.” Rev. 19:20
A. Killing and Fire: While the holy house was on fire, every thing was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity, but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting. The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain…” Wars 6.5.1
B. Desolation and Fire: [Zealots] set on fire those houses that were full of corn, and of all other provisions. The same thing was done by Simon when, upon the other’s retreat, he attacked the city also; as if they had on purpose, done it to serve the Romans, by destroying what the city had laid up against the siege, and by thus cutting off the nerves of their own power. Accordingly, it so came to pass, that all the places that were about the temple were burnt down, and were become an intermediate desert space…”. Wars 5.1.4
C. Purged by Fire: “…it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire…” Wars 4.5.2

 

[Ephesians321]

THE GREEK “GE” REFERS TO “THE LAND”—NOT “THE EARTH”.
Incorrect: “I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth…” Rev. 7:1
Correct: “I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the [promised] land…” Rev 7:1

A. “THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE LAND” WAS A REFERENCE TO ERRANT ISRAEL. (land=ge #1093)
1. Rev 3:10 “You kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, which is to come on the whole world to test those who dwell on the land [ge].”
2. Rev. 6:10 “They [the martyrs] cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, Master, the holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the land [ge]?”
3. Rev. 8:13 “I saw, and I heard an eagle, flying in mid heaven, saying with a loud voice, ‘Woe! Woe! Woe for those who dwell on the land [ge], because of the other voices of the trumpets of the three angels, who are yet to sound!’”
4. Rev. 11:10 “Those who dwell on the land [ge] rejoice over them [the slain witnesses], and they will be glad. They will give gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the land [ge].”
5. Rev. 13:8 “All who dwell on the land [ge] will worship him [the beast], everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.”
6. Rev. 13:12 “He [second beast] exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. He makes the land [ge] and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.”
7. Rev. 13:14 “By the signs he [second beast] was permitted to perform on behalf of the beast, he deceived those who dwell on the land [ge]. He told those who dwell on the land [ge] to make an image to the beast…”
8. Rev. 14:6 “I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal Good News to proclaim to those who dwell on the land [ge], and to every nation, tribe, language, and people.” (Call to repent even at the last hour.)
9. Rev. 17:2 “[Prostitute] with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality, and those who dwell in the land [ge] were made drunken with the wine of her sexual immorality."
10. Rev. 17:8 “Those who dwell on the land [ge] and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast…”

B. “KINGS OF THE LAND”—REFERENCE TO ISRAEL’S LEADERS. (land=ge #1093)
1. Rev. 1:5 “From Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the land [ge]; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in His blood.”
2. Rev. 6:15 “The kings of the land [ge], and the great men, and the rich, and the chiefs of thousands, and the mighty, and every servant, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains.”
3. Rev. 17:2 “[The harlot] with whom the kings of the land [ge] did commit whoredom; and made drunk from the wine of her whoredom were those inhabiting the land [ge].”
4. Rev. 17:18 “The woman [harlot] that thou didst see is the great city that is having reign over the kings of the land [ge].” 5. Rev. 18:3 “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality, the kings of the land [ge] committed sexual immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from the abundance of her luxury."
6. Rev. 18:9 “Then the kings of the land [ge] who committed immoral acts with her [harlot] and lived in sensual luxury with her will weep and wail for her when they see the smoke from the fire that burns her up.”
7. Rev. 19:19 “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the land [ge], and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army.”
8. Rev. 21:24 “The nations of the saved in its light shall walk, and the kings of the land [ge] do bring their glory and honor into it.” (Redeemed see Acts 6:7)

JEWS CAME FROM “EVERY NATION” [ethnos #1484] WITH OWN LANGUAGE. “There were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation [ethnos #1484] under the sky. When this [great] sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were bewildered, because everyone heard them speaking in his own language.” Acts. 2:5-6

A. “TRIBES, TONGUES, PEOPLES, NATIONS” WAS WORD PHRASE FOR ERRANT ISRAEL.
1. Rev. 5:9-10 “They sing a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth."
2. Rev. 7:9-10 “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands. 10 They cried with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation be to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
3. Rev. 10:10-11 “I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up. It was as sweet as honey in my mouth. When I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. 11 They told me, "You must prophesy again over many peoples, nations, languages, and kings.”
4. Rev. 11:8-10 “Their [two witnesses’] dead bodies will be in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 From among the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations people will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 Those who dwell on the land rejoice over them…”
5. Rev. 13:7-8 “It was given to him [beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. Authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the land will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life…”
6. Rev. 14:6-7 “I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal Good News to proclaim to those who dwell on the land, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people. 7 He said with a loud voice, "Fear the Lord, and give him glory; for the hour of his judgment has come.”
7. Rev. 17:15 “He said to me, ‘The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.’”

B. “NATIONS” WAS PRIMARILY REFERENCE TO ERRANT ISRAEL [nations=ethnesin #1484]
1. Rev. 2:26 “He who is overcoming, and who is keeping unto the end my works, I will give to him authority over the nations.”
2. Rev. 11:2 “The court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months.” 3. Rev. 12:5 “She [heavenly woman] brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne.”
4. Rev. 11:18 “The nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land."
5. Rev. 14:8 “Another messenger did follow, saying, 'Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great city, because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.’"
6. Rev. 15:3 “They sing the song of Moses, servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, 'Great and wonderful are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty, righteous and true are Thy ways, O King of nations.’”
7. Rev. 15:4 “Thou alone art kind, because all the nations shall come and bow before Thee, because Thy righteous acts were manifested.” (See B #14,15,16)
8. Rev. 16:19 “It came -- the great city -- into three parts, and the cities of the nations did fall, and Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the wrath of His anger.”
9. Rev. 18:3 “The wine of the wrath of her [harlot] whoredom have all the nations drunk, and the kings of the land with her did commit whoredom, and merchants of the land from the power of her revel were made rich.”
10. Rev. 18:23 “Light of a lamp may not shine at all in thee any more; and voice of bridegroom and of bride may not be heard at all in thee any more; because thy merchants were the great ones of the land, because in thy sorcery were all the nations led astray.”
11. Rev. 19:14-15 “The armies which are in heaven… followed him [Jesus] on white horses. Out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty.”
12. Rev. 20:3 He [Jesus] cast him [adversary] to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.
13. Rev. 20:8 “He [the adversary] shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the land -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea.”
14. Rev. 21:24 “The nations of the saved in its light shall walk, and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.” (Redeemed)
15. Rev. 21:26 “They [kings of the earth] shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.” (Redeemed)
16. Rev. 22:2 “On this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruits, yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.” (Redeemed)

1. Translation problems with “nation” [ethnos #1484]:
Lk 21:24: Incorrect: “Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Correct: “Jerusalem will be trampled down by the nations [#1484] until the times of the nations [#1484] are fulfilled.”
Incorrect: Mt. 4:15 “The land of Zebulun… Galilee of the Gentiles.
Correct: “The land of Zebulun…Galilee of the nations [#1484].”
Rev 11:2 Incorrect: “Do not measure the outer courtyard of the temple; leave it out, because it has been given to the Gentiles.”
Correct: “Do not measure the outer courtyard of the temple; leave it out, because it has been given to the nations [#1484].
2. Nation: Ethnos #1484 Probably from #1486—a race from the same habit i.e. tribe. Related to custom, manner.
3. People of the land I.e. those fixated on worldly things, are in contrast to those who dwell in Heaven. Rev 13:6, Eph. 2:6
4. Kings of the Earth (earth=oikoumene #3625) was usually reference to larger Roman World. Rev 16:14