Is this dictatorship

[Introverted1293]

Florida's DeSantis bans pro-Palestinian student group

Florida’s university system, working with Governor Ron DeSantis, ordered colleges on Tuesday to shut down a pro-Palestinian student organization, marking the first U.S. state to outlaw the group whose national leadership backed Hamas' attack on Israel.

www.reuters.com

I usually lead to the right when it comes to policy. But I will admit I don't always understand every policy that is made, cuz I'm not very political. But I believe in conservative policies are usually the right policies. I don't know how to explain myself very well so I apologize. But Ron DeSantis banning pro Palestinian groups from campuses? Isn't that a little dictatorship? I mean I don't fully understand this war between Palestine and Israel to be perfectly honest.

But if I am wrong, and thinking that this is a little bit of a dictatorship, can you tell me why?

 

[Benjamin Müller]

They're doing what they complain the left does. I'm apolitical, but I think this is a violation of freedom of speech and right to peacefully protest and the leftist favorite words: xenophobia and racism.

I have been viewing both the Jewish and Palestinian perspectives of this war (not Hamas, specifically, but the people), and I think the Palestinians have valid claims, and there are Jews who even side with the Palestinians. I know biblically the Jewish people will inherit the land, but their relationship with the Palestinians could have been better. And there are things that the Palestinians could have done better.

People need to see both sides and hear both grievances, that was a proper judge would do. Hear the plaintiff and defendant, but we're cutting out the other side of the story by doing things like DeSantis is doing.

At the end of the day, the whole thing is a mess, and it has spiraled into generational hatred. We should be staying out of foreign affairs. They've got to settle this themselves. But circling back around to the relevant article, as long as nothing escalates to violence, banning pro-Palestinian groups is unconstitutional.

 

[Arcangl86]

Wow, that's a pretty blatant 1A violation, but people are going to cheer him for it.

 

[Gene2memE]

DeSantis has shown repeatedly that he wants to use the power of the state to regulate and/or punish speech.

See, for instance:

The federal rulings needed to overturn the 'Stop Woke' and 'Combating Public Disorder' acts
The retaliation against Disney, teachers unions, university professors and student groups for commenting on the Parental Rights in Education bill
The new state laws regulating what speech social media companies must allow and disallow
The attempt to pass a bill requiring online commentators on Florida politics to register with the state, or face fines
The ongoing attempts to revise Florida defamation laws in order to lower the bar for defamation. Versions of the bill have also sought to eliminate the 'actual malice' standard, make it easier to sue journalists and require a person sued for defamation to cover all legal costs
The multiple attempts to weaken Florida anti-SLAPP laws
The attempt to weaken/eliminate Florida laws concerning qualified privilege for journalists (known as shield laws)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

While he's clearly doing it for show (since it's primary season).

From a legal standpoint, it's a grey area...for a couple of reasons I'll elaborate on.

1) It's a public university (which receives public funds), a group benefiting from said public funds has to avoid religious entanglements. The Hamas/Israel hostility most certainly has "Islam vs. Judaism" connotations.

2) The ACLU's rebuttal to this is 'weak sauce'. "Instead of keeping people safe, the government is simply silencing ideas it doesn't like,"
- would that rationale have been acceptable in any other circumstance when dealing with extreme viewpoints? For instance, if there was an anti- vaccine group operating on California campuses, and distributing conspiratorial materials on the matter discouraging people from getting vaccinated, while benefiting and being given meeting space at public universities by taxpayer dollars, would anyone criticizing this move have been critiquing Newsom in 2021 if he opted to squash it?

3) The national-level leaders of this group voiced support of Hamas's attack, they didn't just voice support for innocent Palestinians. It's the difference between a "College Republicans" group vs. a "Support the Patriots who Stormed the Capitol on Jan 6th" group. There's no obligation for publicly funded universities to allow groups encouraging illegal things to operate on publicly funded campuses

4) This one, while not a legal argument, is a credibility-based argument. Anyone who's ever supported/defended the idea of protesting and/or rioting in order to get a speaker disinvited from a campus or has voiced support for "speech codes on campus" (in the name of not offending anyone), had better be keeping their lip zipped on this matter.



All of that being said, do I think DeSantis is doing this for sincere reasons? No
Do I think he'd enforce it evenly? Also No. (I wouldn't be surprised he allowed a far-right campus group to continue operating under the pretense of "free expression" if it was something that would allow him to pander)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I know biblically the Jewish people will inherit the land

Scripture please?

 

[Introverted1293]

Might be. Good then?

Yes I am good lol

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Simple: As Revealed by Yahweh, Author of Life and of Scripture:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, 1,2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Hebrews, 1,2,3 John , Revelation

I guess you are not willing to point it out specifically. Be blessed.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I guess you are not willing to point it out specifically. Be blessed.

Deuteronomy 30:1-5
Isaiah 11:11-12
Ezekiel 20:41-42

The major and minor prophets focus on the captivity and the return of Israel. There's far more scriptures I can quote than that. Read through the prophesies you'll see that Israel is returning.

 

[wing2000]

I did as specifically as necessary.
ALL Scripture is in Perfect Harmony with no contradictions.

What is the relevance to the Desantis directive?

 

[FireDragon76]

It doesn't surprise me. Desantis has been pushing the authoritarianism in Florida harder than Trump ever did as president. He's getting more and more desperate as his poll numbers continue to slip.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Scripture please?

I believe they were supposed to. But they didn't obey God and stumbled.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Deuteronomy 30:1-5
Isaiah 11:11-12
Ezekiel 20:41-42

The major and minor prophets focus on the captivity and the return of Israel. There's far more scriptures I can quote than that. Read through the prophesies you'll see that Israel is returning.

Which hinged on keeping His Covenant. It would be unfortunate for readers of scripture to ignore this fact. Deuteronomy 30:15-20 delivered by Moses, makes God's commands very clear. One must read through the entire chapter. Blessings

15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Deuteronomy 30:1-5
Isaiah 11:11-12
Ezekiel 20:41-42

The major and minor prophets focus on the captivity and the return of Israel. There's far more scriptures I can quote than that. Read through the prophesies you'll see that Israel is returning.

Cont... Isaiah 11:11-12: One must ask who are the " remnant "?
Roman's 9:27
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the [islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Florida's DeSantis bans pro-Palestinian student group

Florida’s university system, working with Governor Ron DeSantis, ordered colleges on Tuesday to shut down a pro-Palestinian student organization, marking the first U.S. state to outlaw the group whose national leadership backed Hamas' attack on Israel.

www.reuters.com

I usually lead to the right when it comes to policy. But I will admit I don't always understand every policy that is made, cuz I'm not very political. But I believe in conservative policies are usually the right policies. I don't know how to explain myself very well so I apologize. But Ron DeSantis banning pro Palestinian groups from campuses? Isn't that a little dictatorship? I mean I don't fully understand this war between Palestine and Israel to be perfectly honest.

But if I am wrong, and thinking that this is a little bit of a dictatorship, can you tell me why?

People who support Palestine can be on campus; one particularly egregious group, the Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) just can't hold pro-Hamas, anti-Israel rallies in two Florida colleges: The University of Florida and University of South Florida have SJP chapters,

SJP can hold a rally downtown, or anywhere else they like, so long as they do not violate the law, block roads, etc.

But the campus has a duty to protect the safety of all its residents.

Tensions between pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian students have led to harassment and assaults at U.S. universities since Hamas' Oct.7 attack and Israel's siege and bombardment of the Gaza Strip.

Administrators at some U.S. universities criticized the National SJP after it called Hamas' attack "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance" and called for a "day of resistance" on Oct. 12 with demonstrations by its chapters at over 200 colleges in America and Canada. Florida's DeSantis bans pro-Palestinian student group

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Florida's DeSantis bans pro-Palestinian student group

Florida’s university system, working with Governor Ron DeSantis, ordered colleges on Tuesday to shut down a pro-Palestinian student organization, marking the first U.S. state to outlaw the group whose national leadership backed Hamas' attack on Israel.

www.reuters.com

I usually lead to the right when it comes to policy. But I will admit I don't always understand every policy that is made, cuz I'm not very political. But I believe in conservative policies are usually the right policies. I don't know how to explain myself very well so I apologize. But Ron DeSantis banning pro Palestinian groups from campuses? Isn't that a little dictatorship? I mean I don't fully understand this war between Palestine and Israel to be perfectly honest.

But if I am wrong, and thinking that this is a little bit of a dictatorship, can you tell me why?

State run schools and buildings can pass rules like this. They can be challenged in court, in which the arguments for and against can be discussed. Should they be forced to allow a KKK group?

Huckabee Sanders did something similar. She banned the use of certain "woke" words in official "government communications". It doesn't mean people can't use the words in the halls of government - or shopping at wal-mart or posting on facebook.

There is a solid and clear line between stuff like this and a dictatorship, though at first glance they appear similar. For starters, you can vote against these people every four years. If these rules spill into the general public, and you can not vote these folks out, that's when you can start talking about dictatorship, IMO.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

While he's clearly doing it for show (since it's primary season).

From a legal standpoint, it's a grey area...for a couple of reasons I'll elaborate on.

1) It's a public university (which receives public funds), a group benefiting from said public funds has to avoid religious entanglements. The Hamas/Israel hostility most certainly has "Islam vs. Judaism" connotations.

2) The ACLU's rebuttal to this is 'weak sauce'. "Instead of keeping people safe, the government is simply silencing ideas it doesn't like,"
- would that rationale have been acceptable in any other circumstance when dealing with extreme viewpoints? For instance, if there was an anti- vaccine group operating on California campuses, and distributing conspiratorial materials on the matter discouraging people from getting vaccinated, while benefiting and being given meeting space at public universities by taxpayer dollars, would anyone criticizing this move have been critiquing Newsom in 2021 if he opted to squash it?

3) The national-level leaders of this group voiced support of Hamas's attack, they didn't just voice support for innocent Palestinians. It's the difference between a "College Republicans" group vs. a "Support the Patriots who Stormed the Capitol on Jan 6th" group. There's no obligation for publicly funded universities to allow groups encouraging illegal things to operate on publicly funded campuses

4) This one, while not a legal argument, is a credibility-based argument. Anyone who's ever supported/defended the idea of protesting and/or rioting in order to get a speaker disinvited from a campus or has voiced support for "speech codes on campus" (in the name of not offending anyone), had better be keeping their lip zipped on this matter.



All of that being said, do I think DeSantis is doing this for sincere reasons? No
Do I think he'd enforce it evenly? Also No. (I wouldn't be surprised he allowed a far-right campus group to continue operating under the pretense of "free expression" if it was something that would allow him to pander)

Number 1 only occurred because of rioting all over the country. Peaceful protesting is always acceptable.

Number 2 was a vastly successful technique used by the government utilizing social media as its arm to silence ideas it didn't like during the pandemic. Just BTW

Number 3: That's the key issue. Supporting Hamas' attack on Israel, and the barbaric land attack of kibbutzim and young people at a festival is not the same at all as being "pro-Palestinian people". You are correct; there is no obligation for publicly funded universities to allow groups - here just ONE group - encouraging illegal actions to operate on campus.

Number 4: Bingo.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I did as specifically as necessary.
ALL Scripture is in Perfect Harmony with no contradictions.

I disagree (bold mine).
Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” Matthew 26:34
And Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times.” Mark 14:30

I'm not trying to really argue the point, it's just that I've found that though the bible is a fully spiritual book, it is also a fully human book. It was not written by men that went into a trance and God controlled their writing hand. Rather, it was written by men inspired (God breathed) by God. That's why there may be "technical" discrepancies/contradictions, but the gist remains the same. The writers are giving "their perspective." It's why there are four gospels and not one.

The rooster example is one I use because it is obvious "low hanging fruit". There are many others. I just don't get hung up on them. The bible is still solid.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Sigh.
What is posted is no disagreement; the perfect harmony is well understood by a few Hebrew-Jewish sites somewhere online (unless censored or just closed down already) . Happily the truth is unshaken even though often mis-applied or mis-understood.

I suppose I agree with that. What I've had a hard time with the last three years or so is how people always use 2 timothy 3:16. At that time, there was no New Testament, but there was a Septuagint, which is sometimes quoted word for word in the new testament writings. Yet our modern bible does not contain all the books of the Septuagint, or even 1 Enoch, for that matter, which is also quoted by bible authors. Not that it should be part of canon, but over the decades I've become much more flexible in how I interpret the meaning and reliability of the text in our modern bibles. But it doesn't mean I don't believe it. Not even close.

I'll use this analogy. I've been married to my wife for 25 years. We are each other's best friend. I know her pretty well. If there had been a book I read about her "life and times" before we met, I would have assumed it contained accurate information, but at this stage, when I find discrepancies between it's words and what I've learned about the personality of the person I've been married to all these years, I'll go with the latter.

When one has a relationship with our Creator, one really doesn't need a bible at all, but it helps to give perspective and keep one from misinterpreting events. i.e. when our son was killed in a car wreck a couple of years ago we didn't go to Psalm 91 and say, "YOU LIED, GOD!" If it had happened right after we read that and had just became Christians, we just might have.

 

[Pommer]

When one has a relationship with our Creator, one really doesn't need a bible at all, but it helps to give perspective and keep one from misinterpreting events. i.e. when our son was killed in a car wreck a couple of years ago we didn't go to Psalm 91 and say, "YOU LIED, GOD!" If it had happened right after we read that and had just became Christians, we just might have.

Hi, welcome to CF and forum 71!
Expect some pushback over your Bible opinion.