Should Hamas Surrender?

[Lukaris]

For all the rockets fired into Israel in the last 75 years while people starved from where these were fired, says that those who perpetuate “the cause” care little for their fellow sufferers.

 

[rambot]

absolutely!

After what my peers did on Oct. 7, and after thousands of deaths due to my actions in the Gaza strip..? I would turn myself in, and renounce Hamas.

What about everything that was happening over the last few years to citizens in Gaza?

 

[rambot]

For all the rockets fired into Israel in the last 75 years while people starved from where these were fired, says that those who perpetuate “the cause” care little for their fellow sufferers.

They shouldn't be firing those missiles hey.

They should just be suffering at Israel's hand quietly and learn their place.

 

[Lukaris]

They shouldn't be firing those missiles hey.

They should just be suffering at Israel's hand quietly and learn their place.

So you support their firing missiles?

Israel has done wrong over the years and has had as much wrong done too it. I really don’t know what can be done about this situation, do you?

Can you tell me what should be done in Syria for supporters of the Moslem Brotherhood? They have done bad things and have had bad things done to them. Do the Assad regimes which have ruled Syria since 1970 get a pass because everyone in the conflict is of the same blood? There are people being killed daily in Syria by different factions since the civil war reignited after the “Arab Spring” debacle.

Are the Assads somehow more humane than the Israelis so people under them should “know their place?”

Islamist uprising in Syria - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Landon Caeli]

What about everything that was happening over the last few years to citizens in Gaza?

Hamas is Gaza's worst enemy.

Human rights in Palestine (State of)

Stay up to date on the state of human rights in Palestine (State of) with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.

www.amnesty.org

 

[rambot]

Hamas is Gaza's worst enemy.

Human rights in Palestine (State of)

Stay up to date on the state of human rights in Palestine (State of) with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.

www.amnesty.org

They ARE bad. But they are not the worst:

If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine

 

[rambot]

So you support their firing missiles?

Number of Israelis killed by fired missiles through this conflict:
1200ish
Number of Gazans killed through the same:
3000+

Israel has done wrong over the years and has had as much wrong done too it. I really don’t know what can be done about this situation, do you?

Definitely not. Both government's have proven themselves to be awful. SOME israeli citizens have been really awful about stealing Palestinian lands and property (with unspoken support from their government).

I VERY softly side with the Palestinian people. But ultimately, nobody there truly gets my support. There's too much repugnant behaviour.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Number of Israelis killed by fired missiles through this conflict:
1200ish
Number of Gazans killed through the same:
3000+

But Hamas is shooting at Israel... If Israel stops shooting at Hamas, Hamas will still continue shooting rockets at Israel.

...Israel *has no choice* but to try and stop them.

 

[Lukaris]

Number of Israelis killed by fired missiles through this conflict:
1200ish
Number of Gazans killed through the same:
3000+


Definitely not. Both government's have proven themselves to be awful. SOME israeli citizens have been really awful about stealing Palestinian lands and property (with unspoken support from their government).

I VERY softly side with the Palestinian people. But ultimately, nobody there truly gets my support. There's too much repugnant behaviour.

Here is what I perceive in a nutshell and I have no preferences as far as the Palestinian or Israeli peoples. Where I make the distinction is that I believe the Israeli political leadership actually struggles with a live and let live attitude. I believe the Palestinian leaderships that have existed are anti Israeli to the core. I believe any Palestinians who try any alternatives to the status quo are suppressed by their leaders. I believe the same pattern exists in Iran which the leaders are perpetually spouting anti Israeli sentiment & pro Palestinian intifada to their nation and many Iranians have no desire to even be involved in it.

 

[rambot]

Here is what I perceive in a nutshell and I have no preferences as far as the Palestinian or Israeli peoples. Where I make the distinction is that I believe the Israeli political leadership actually struggles with a live and let live attitude.

You would be incorrect in that assumption, if you follow Netenyahu and his political party.

I believe the Palestinian leaderships that have existed are anti Israeli to the core.

I 100% agree with that. But I believe that is happenning becaues of how terribly Israel (and its citizens) treat Palestine and Gaza.

I believe any Palestinians who try any alternatives to the status quo are suppressed by their leaders. I believe the same pattern exists in Iran which the leaders are perpetually spouting anti Israeli sentiment & pro Palestinian intifada to their nation and many Iranians have no desire to even be involved in it.

Could be....

 

[Landon Caeli]

They ARE bad. But they are not the worst:

If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine

Your source just lied to me and you...

 

[Fantine]

Israel is a country that seems to take vengeance to the nth degree, and the many human rights violations they have inflicted on the Palestinians have created justified mistrust.

The Palestinians need to disavow Hamas...but Israel's harsh rule has, in the past, forced them to turn to them in desperation.

I am sure they would like to be rid of Hamas, too, but not if hundreds of thousands of them die--through starvation or bombings--in the process.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

They ARE bad. But they are not the worst:

If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine

I'm not sure that's really the best source - it's definitely biased against Israel, in that it only seems to report negative actions by the Israelis. It's not necessarily untruthful, but it's not really making any effort to present any information that might make Palestine look bad either. For a site that's purporting to present the "truth" of the Israel-Palestine conflict, that's not a great start.

 

[Lukaris]

You would be incorrect in that assumption, if you follow Netenyahu and his political party.

I 100% agree with that. But I believe that is happenning becaues of how terribly Israel (and its citizens) treat Palestine and Gaza.


Could be....

Netanyahu has been in and out of power in various elections. Moderate, and outright liberal, leaderships have been in place over time and it seems that it is perpetual anti Israeli extremism that has brought him back into power at the very least.

 

[Pommer]

The first thing that needs to happen, is that Hamas needs to release the hostage's and stop launching missile's into Israel.

Okay, let’s say that has happened.

What comes next?

 

[rambot]

I'm not sure that's really the best source - it's definitely biased against Israel, in that it only seems to report negative actions by the Israelis. It's not necessarily untruthful, but it's not really making any effort to present any information that might make Palestine look bad either. For a site that's purporting to present the "truth" of the Israel-Palestine conflict, that's not a great start.

This is a poor review of the site:
"Sure the evidence it presents may be true..." (okay. So you can accept the evidence they provide can't be undermined) "but they aren't trying to make it balanced".

But look RIGHT at the data. The data present ITSELF is imbalanced....

Because the situation is imbalanced. Because the power differential between these two countries...is imbalanced. An understated but important graph is the one about how western media in the US reports Israeli as opposed to Palestinian deaths. There is an imbalance in American media too.


It doesn't seem fair to Palestinian citizens who are the DIRECT victims being reported here to suggest the disproportionate suffering that they are experiencing isn't fair to talk about because it doesn't talk about the things that are not happenning to Israelis.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

This is a poor review of the site:
"Sure the evidence it presents may be true..." (okay. So you can accept the evidence they provide can't be undermined) "but they aren't trying to make it balanced".

But look RIGHT at the data. The data present ITSELF is imbalanced....

Because the situation is imbalanced. Because the power differential between these two countries...is imbalanced. An understated but important graph is the one about how western media in the US reports Israeli as opposed to Palestinian deaths. There is an imbalance in American media too.


It doesn't seem fair to Palestinian citizens who are the DIRECT victims being reported here to suggest the disproportionate suffering that they are experiencing isn't fair to talk about because it doesn't talk about the things that are not happenning to Israelis.

Yes, the situation is imbalanced. But that doesn't excuse an imbalanced presentation of the data. Let's look at the article mentioned earlier (What We Know About the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital Blast). Landon's take on the headline was wrong (which is what led me to actually check out the site and read the article), but the article itself is not a fair or accurate presentation of the facts.

Evidence of Israeli involvement (which is all circumstantial - i.e. they warned the hospital to evacuate, they've attacked hospitals before) is presented in full, with quotes and multiple sources. In contrast, the article only states that "evidence has been reported" that it was Palestinian rockets that did the damage. That evidence is not provided, there are no quotes to back any of it up, and the author merely states that "the possibility is worth considering" - then goes on to take a dig at Israel's record of friendly fire incidents. The article closes with another section detailing Israel's past attacks on medical facilities.

For an article purporting to detail "What we know about the Al Ahli hospital blast", very little about the actual blast is in it. The only facts presented about the incident itself are:

- the details of the incident (time, date, casualty count)
- Israel hit the facility with a couple artillery shells on the 14th and called it a warning
- Israel called or texted hospital administrators at least three times since Saturday, asking them to leave the facility
- Israel has changed their story

That's it. They don't even bother to mention that it's confirmed that there was a Palestinian rocket barrage passing in the vicinity of the hospital at the time of the strike. They don't show any of the imagery of the blast site. They don't talk about how often Palestinian rockets misfire or fall short. There are a total of four sentences dedicated to the possibility that it was friendly fire. Just four, and all of them are loaded with caveats and language that makes the reader question whether or not the information is accurate. The rest of this article, supposedly about Al Ahli, is actually about Israel's history of attacking medical facilities and personnel - poisoning the well. Even if it's accurate, that's not relevant to a presentation of facts around a specific incident.

To be clear, I'm not defending Hamas here, and I've long been critical of Israel's treatment of Palestinians. I'm just pointing out that the site you linked has a very clear agenda and bias, and should be taken with a very hefty grain of salt.

 

[rambot]

Yes, the situation is imbalanced. But that doesn't excuse an imbalanced presentation of the data. Let's look at the article mentioned earlier (What We Know About the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital Blast). Landon's take on the headline was wrong (which is what led me to actually check out the site and read the article), but the article itself is not a fair or accurate presentation of the facts.

Evidence of Israeli involvement (which is all circumstantial - i.e. they warned the hospital to evacuate, they've attacked hospitals before) is presented in full, with quotes and multiple sources. In contrast, the article only states that "evidence has been reported" that it was Palestinian rockets that did the damage. That evidence is not provided, there are no quotes to back any of it up, and the author merely states that "the possibility is worth considering" - then goes on to take a dig at Israel's record of friendly fire incidents. The article closes with another section detailing Israel's past attacks on medical facilities.

For an article purporting to detail "What we know about the Al Ahli hospital blast", very little about the actual blast is in it. The only facts presented about the incident itself are:

- the details of the incident (time, date, casualty count)
- Israel hit the facility with a couple artillery shells on the 14th and called it a warning
- Israel called or texted hospital administrators at least three times since Saturday, asking them to leave the facility
- Israel has changed their story

That's it. They don't even bother to mention that it's confirmed that there was a Palestinian rocket barrage passing in the vicinity of the hospital at the time of the strike. They don't show any of the imagery of the blast site. They don't talk about how often Palestinian rockets misfire or fall short. There are a total of four sentences dedicated to the possibility that it was friendly fire. Just four, and all of them are loaded with caveats and language that makes the reader question whether or not the information is accurate. The rest of this article, supposedly about Al Ahli, is actually about Israel's history of attacking medical facilities and personnel - poisoning the well. Even if it's accurate, that's not relevant to a presentation of facts around a specific incident.

To be clear, I'm not defending Hamas here, and I've long been critical of Israel's treatment of Palestinians. I'm just pointing out that the site you linked has a very clear agenda and bias, and should be taken with a very hefty grain of salt.

While you make a good point about a DIFFERENT website, if the clear agenda was an issue, then even a cursory look at it should give some hints of problems with the information. The situation that those articles are dealing with are VERY subjective; data is not nearly as subjective.

But the website is just graphs. Ita data. I just don't think it's reasonable to dismiss the website outright because it has obvious bias. It's a bit of an ad hominem non?


You know what I would love if you could find it though? ANY kind of data that would show this kind of imbalance that Israeli's are on the losing end of. Because I have the worrying thought that there really isn't a rubric where Palestine isn't suffering exponentially more than Israelis.

 

[Pommer]

Trucks could roll in with medical supplies, Doctors, food etc ........ then dialogue could begin.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that if Hamas released their hostages and stopped shooting their rockets Israel would move in with the Big Guns.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Israel is not in a position to fight a ground war against the Palestinians and they know it ...

What metrics are you basing this statement on?

For point of reference:
According to the Global Firepower Index, an annually-updated stats website that tracks defence-related information, the Israeli Defence Forces is one of the 20 most powerful militaries in the world.

IDF have 189k active combat troops (plus 400k reserve personnel)

An overview of its military assets reveals 241 fighter jets, 48 attack helicopters, and 2,200 tanks

These include F35s, which have one of the world's best electronic warfare suits and have been described by American Air Force pilots as an aircraft providing enhanced situational awareness.

Israel also has over 1,200 artillery units; this includes 300 MLRS, or multiple launch rocket systems. This includes smart bombs that can strike targets with minimum collateral damage.


In comparison...

Hamas has roughly ~10,000 ground fighters, whatever outdated equipment other Arabic nations are willing to provide them, and improvised explosive devices.



Unless you're referring to the possibility that other nations like Iran and Libya may step up and help them?, but that's a whole different conversation...as if we start playing the game of "who can call in their stronger friends to lend an assist", Israel wins that one hands-down and it's not even close given that the US and UK are Israel's allies.