When two worldviews collide.

[o_mlly]

Some people are slow to anger. Some spark up quite quickly. Some are miserly. Some generous. A lot of this is inherited. That is, genetic.

Again (fifth time?), we're only interested in your identifying the material source that cannot be genetic which you say explains the evolution of heroic virtue, of self-sacrificial behaviors.

It's completely nonsensical giving someone the details of a hypothetical and then asking them to respond as if they don't know what those details are.

The purpose of a moral hypothetical is to draw out the efficacy in the principles underlying a proposed moral system. If you are unwilling to have your proposed moral system so scrutinized then what is gratuitously given may just as gratuitously be dismissed.

We both think that Manson was wrong to do what he did. We both can give good reasons.

If your reasons are from God, then you can present them and we'll all discuss them to see if they are reasonable. That will be the deciding fact. Not where the reasons come from or who gave them. But whether we can agree that they are reasonable.

We have to decide. There's no-one else here to do it for us.

So, you agree morality is objective? The reasonable moral system is an objective one.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, but what we do is not necessarily determined by our genes. There are other factors. The obvious one in this case is that if you are in terrible pain, physically or mentally, you want it to end. And that might well override everything else. You probably won't be thinking 'Hey, I'll end it all after I have one or two kid's.'

? The issue under examination is not choosing euthanasia under duress but an explanation as to a material source for choosing the heroically virtuous act.

 

[Dan1988]

That's not exactly how truth works.

Do you know the truth? To Christians the Lord Jesus's Christ is the truth, because He is the only one who said 'I am the truth'. He went on to prove it because every word He spoke is true and every prophecy he prophesied has c9me to pass and some are yet to come.

So it's evident we have different views on what the truth actually is, to begin with so we're not going to agree on anything

 

[Bradskii]

The issue under examination is not choosing euthanasia under duress but an explanation as to a material source for choosing the heroically virtuous act.

We don't like to be considered cowards. We denigrate cowards. We belittle them. We shame them. Nobody wants to be denigrated or belittled or shamed. Out position within society is affected by it. And we want to feel as if we belong. That we can be trusted. That people think well of us. And all this is because we are social animals.

If we lived entirely indendently as do some animals (polar bears, snow leopards amongs others: 8 of the World's Most Solitary Animals) then shame wouldn't exist. But we aren't. So it does. This is the direction that evolution took us. It could have been a lot different - orang utangs are what are termed semi-solitary.

So solitary confinement is quite a cruel punishment. We crave company. And we enjoy being in groups. Being excluded hurts. So we tend not to do things that will exclude us. And do that which will enhance our position in a group. Acting heroically will do that.

And love will prompt it as well. I love my wife and my kids so I would sacrifice myself for them. But that concentric circle extends pretty rapidly. So what I would do for my wife I wouldn't necessarily do for a friend. And I'd do a lot less for a casual aquaintence.

 

[o_mlly]

... This is the direction that evolution took us. ... Being excluded hurts. So we tend not to do things that will exclude us. And do that which will enhance our position in a group.

Yes, and do you know what act absolutely and forever excludes one from the group? That's the act that we're looking for you to explain from a materialist point of view. Evolution does not explain why one would lay down his life for a friend (outside of those "concentric circles").

The "selfish gene" theory suggests that the individual supports the group iff the group's existence enhances the continuation of his own existence, ie., the group exists for the sake of the individual. Assuming that you do not believe in the afterlife, what the group thinks of you after you're gone doesn't matter to you a twit.

 

[Aaron112]

If we don't know there's harm then there's nothing on which to comment. If we do, we can comment appropriately.

The government won't allow much when the government is causing harm.

If your reasons are from God, then you can present them and we'll all discuss them to see if they are reasonable. That will be the deciding fact. Not where the reasons come from or who gave them. But whether we can agree that they are reasonable.

John the Baptist spoke the truth, boldly and openly, and was beheaded for doing so.

To Christians the Lord Jesus's Christ is the truth, because He is the only one who said 'I am the truth'. He went on to prove it because every word He spoke is true and every prophecy he prophesied has c9me to pass and some are yet to come.

People, even corporations and governments, are afraid of the truth being told.

So it's evident we have different views on what the truth actually is, to begin with so we're not going to agree on anything

On a platform politic or religious or even scientific that is open to everyone with internet access
there won't be agreement.

 

[rjs330]

For myself? I have total authority. To make other people behave the way I do? None. But luckily my ethical framework is basically the same as my country’s ethical framework so I don’t need to worry about subjecting others to my particular ethical framework.

I have no need to subject other people to my ethical framework because (surprise surprise) it fits really well with my cultures ethical framework.

That's all well and good but you argue for your ethical framework to be implemented other places. That's a lot of what happens on these forums. A desire that your personal ethical framework be implemented every where else. And you believe other cultures are wrong for the way they operate.

Even in your own country there are ethical framework and morality conflicts. What gives you the authority to tell others in your own country how they should operate?

 

[Aaron112]

That's all well and good but you argue for your ethical framework to be implemented other places. That's a lot of what happens on these forums. A desire that your personal ethical framework be implemented every where else. And you believe other cultures are wrong for the way they operate.

When will Jesus be the only one leading all people? (i.e. when will all people be His ; obedient faithful truthful sheep following Him )

 

[dwb001]

When will Jesus be the only one leading all people? (i.e. when will all people be His ; obedient faithful truthful sheep following Him )

On the New Earth.

 

[Aaron112]

On the New Earth.

Do people have to wait until then to follow Jesus? Or can they turn to Jesus Today To Follow Him, Listen To Him, To Be His ?

 

[dwb001]

Do people have to wait until then to follow Jesus? Or can they turn to Jesus Today To Follow Him, Listen To Him, To Be His ?

Do you need to buy a ticket before or after your flight?

 

[Aaron112]

Do you need to buy a ticket before or after your flight?

What if I fly free with the pilot ?

 

[dwb001]

What if I fly free with the pilot ?

No such offer is on the table.
Please don't be silly.
Or does honesty offend you?

 

[Aaron112]

No such offer is on the table.
Please don't be silly.
Or does honesty offend you?

Lack of honesty is all I find most days.

Are you claiming we have to buy a ticket to get to the Kingdom of Heaven ?

I sure did not expect that at all....

“One thing have I asked of Adonai, that will I seek: to dwell in the House of Adonai all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of Adonai, and to meditate in His Temple” (Psalm 27:4).
biblehub.com › romans › 5-7.htm

Romans 5:7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for ...​

Berean Standard Bible Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. Berean Literal Bible For rarely will anyone die for a righteous man,

 

[dwb001]

Lack of honesty is all I find most days.

Are you claiming we have to buy a ticket to get to the Kingdom of Heaven ?

I sure did not expect that at all....

“One thing have I asked of Adonai, that will I seek: to dwell in the House of Adonai all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of Adonai, and to meditate in His Temple” (Psalm 27:4).
biblehub.com › romans › 5-7.htm

Romans 5:7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for ...​

Berean Standard Bible Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. Berean Literal Bible For rarely will anyone die for a righteous man,

Just as your text shows... yes you have to buy the ticket.

 

[Aaron112]

Just as your text shows... yes you have to buy the ticket.

My text? No. I think you're talking about something I'm not talking about ?

 

[dwb001]

My text? No. I think you're talking about something I'm not talking about ?

You quoted the Bible... Psalms... remember.

 

[Aaron112]

You quoted the Bible... Psalms... remember.

All (any of) the Bible at times... no, I don't know what your talking about.

 

[dwb001]

All (any of) the Bible at times... no, I don't know what your talking about.

The psalms reference in comically large font validates my assertion of needing to buy a ticket.

 

[dwb001]

Nothing validates needing to buy a ticket.

The only post I found where I quoted something from Psalms was this one:
“One thing have I asked of Adonai, that will I seek: to dwell in the House of Adonai all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of Adonai, and to meditate in His Temple” (Psalm 27:4).
biblehub.com › romans › 5-7.htm

Asking and seeking sounds like a dude at the ticket counter ringing that little bell for service.

 

[Aaron112]

Asking and seeking sounds like a dude at the ticket counter ringing that little bell for service.

Except the major difference: purchase price for things that are physical/temporary/won't last
VS
eternal life