Following Truth

[Soyeong]

Psalms 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your Law is truth.

Are you in favor of following truth or not? Why or why not?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Follow Truth! Only the Truth shall set us free! John 8:32

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

Psalms 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your Law is truth.

Are you in favor of following truth or not? Why or why not?

To be honest this seems like a somewhat loaded question, what is the insinuation?

 

[Soyeong]

To be honest this seems like a somewhat loaded question, what is the insinuation?

I think that it is a fair question for everyone who considers that verse to be Scripture. The problem is that many people speak against following God's law, which is clearly speaking against following truth, hence the question. The alternative would be for someone to deny the truth of this verse, but if someone considers it to be Scripture while also teaching against obeying God's law, then they should recognize that they are speaking against following truth and recognize falsity of what they are teaching.

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

I think that it is a fair question for everyone who considers that verse to be Scripture. The problem is that many people speak against following God's law, which is clearly speaking against following truth, hence the question. The alternative would be for someone to deny the truth of this verse, but if someone considers it to be Scripture while also teaching against obeying God's law, then they should recognize that they are speaking against following truth and recognize falsity of what they are teaching.

I believe the Bible is the truth, the Word of God, both OT and NT.

Gal 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!
Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

What do you think about this passage?

 

[daq]

Psalms 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your Law is truth.

Are you in favor of following truth or not? Why or why not?

I am in favor of following the truth and here is a companion passage-statement.

John 17:14-17 KJV
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[honey badger]

Psalms 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your Law is truth.

Are you in favor of following truth or not? Why or why not?

God not being separate from His law ...

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Are you in favor of following truth or not? Why or why not?

Ofc the law is good and truth, it is the revelation of God. But God did not give the law so by keeping it, we can be saved. God gave us the law and commandments so we realise we need a Saviour because none of us is capable to live by God's law. The law is showing us who we are, sinners.

 

[Soyeong]

I believe the Bible is the truth, the Word of God, both OT and NT.

Agreed.

Gal 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!
Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

What do you think about this passage?

The only way to become someone who has a character trait is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices that trait apart from being required to first practice that trait first in order to become someone who has that trait as the result as through it could be earned as a wage and becoming someone who has a character trait means becoming someone who practices that trait.

For example, the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices courageousness apart from being required to do courageous acts first in order to become courageous as the result as through courageousness could be earned as a wage and becoming someone who is courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness.

The same is true for any other character trait including becoming righteous. So it is not the case that we need to do righteous acts first and then we will become righteous as the result. Someone would still not earn their righteousness as a wage even if they managed to live in sinless obedience to God's law (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal for why we should obey it. God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith. So when God declares us to be righteous through faith He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness in obedience to His law through that faith. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from needing to do works first to earn our righteousness does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

The only way to become someone who has a character trait is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices that trait apart from being required to first practice that trait first in order to become someone who has that trait as the result as through it could be earned as a wage and becoming someone who has a character trait means becoming someone who practices that trait.

For example, the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices courageousness apart from being required to do courageous acts first in order to become courageous as the result as through courageousness could be earned as a wage and becoming someone who is courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness.

The same is true for any other character trait including becoming righteous. So it is not the case that we need to do righteous acts first and then we will become righteous as the result. Someone would still not earn their righteousness as a wage even if they managed to live in sinless obedience to God's law (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal for why we should obey it. God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith. So when God declares us to be righteous through faith He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness in obedience to His law through that faith. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from needing to do works first to earn our righteousness does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

So besides helping the poor, what are some other ways I should be practicing righteousness?

 

[Soyeong]

Ofc the law is good and truth, it is the revelation of God. But God did not give the law so by keeping it, we can be saved. God gave us the law and commandments so we realise we need a Saviour because none of us is capable to live by God's law. The law is showing us who we are, sinners.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not honoring our parents. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have done those works first in order to result in becoming saved and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. God's law does not just reveal our need for a Savior, but also teaches us the way that God saves us.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it days that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we are incapable of doing. If we were incapable of living by it, then would could rightly place the responsibility for our failure to live by it on God for giving us commands that were beyond our ability. God's law does not just reveal our sin, but also teaches us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and we come to know God by having the experience of getting to express aspects of His nature, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

 

[Gary K]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not honoring our parents. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have done those works first in order to result in becoming saved and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. God's law does not just reveal our need for a Savior, but also teaches us the way that God saves us.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it days that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we are incapable of doing. If we were incapable of living by it, then would could rightly place the responsibility for our failure to live by it on God for giving us commands that were beyond our ability. God's law does not just reveal our sin, but also teaches us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and we come to know God by having the experience of getting to express aspects of His nature, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

You are absolutely correct when you say God cannot be just and hold us responsible for not keeping a law we cannot keep. The possibility must be there one way or another or God is a liar and a tyrant.

 

[Soyeong]

So besides helping the poor, what are some other ways I should be practicing righteousness?

Practicing righteousness is generally done by walking in God's way in obedience to His law, though is has connotation of charity, and is expressed through things valuing the lives of others, honoring the property of others, honoring our committed relationships, testifying about truth, and taking up a right amount of space where we do not love ourselves more than others or less than others while loving others as God loves us.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not honoring our parents. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have done those works first in order to result in becoming saved and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. God's law does not just reveal our need for a Savior, but also teaches us the way that God saves us.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it days that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we are incapable of doing. If we were incapable of living by it, then would could rightly place the responsibility for our failure to live by it on God for giving us commands that were beyond our ability. God's law does not just reveal our sin, but also teaches us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and we come to know God by having the experience of getting to express aspects of His nature, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

I did not say we shouldn't follow God's law and commandments, I said we are not capable of it.

Galatians 3 10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.

Since none of us keeps the law perfectly, we are all under a curse. Jesus Christ took this curse on Him so in Him we might be justified. God no longer sees a Christian as a sinner, but He sees His Son who never sinned.


Rom 5:20 'The law was added (given) so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 3:23-25 'Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

So the law exposes our sin. We see ourselves as we truly are. And having seen the problem, we will then look for the solution - which is that through the death of the Lord Jesus, we may be declared righteous in God's sight through faith in what Jesus has done on our behalf.

There is a reason the Bible says 'there is none who does good, not even one. All came short of God's glory.

Does that then mean because we are saved, we no longer have to keep God's commandments? Don't even think about it. Who loves Lord Jesus, keeps His commandments, but we do not keep His commandments to be saved, because God already provided the payment for the sins of every born again believer.

 

[Soyeong]

I did not say we shouldn't follow God's law and commandments, I said we are not capable of it.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it presents obedience to God's law as a choice and as a possibility, not as something that we are not capable of doing, and in Romans 10:5-10, it references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim.

Galatians 3 10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, in Galatians 3:1-2, it denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11.

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on the Book of the Law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing against it by saying that relying on it is the way to be cursed. Rather, the way to be cursed is by not relying on the Book of the Law, which is why all those who instead rely on works of the law come under the curse for not relying on the Book of the Law.

Furthermore, in Galatians 3:10-12, Paul connected a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 saying that the one who obeys God's law will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law. In addition, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in what He has instructed while to say that God's law is not of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

Since none of us keeps the law perfectly, we are all under a curse. Jesus Christ took this curse on Him so in Him we might be justified. God no longer sees a Christian as a sinner, but He sees His Son who never sinned.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 says that God's law is not too difficult to obey, but if we needed to have perfect obedience in order to avoid being cursed, then it would be too difficult for us to obey. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or a curse is based on whether we choose to follow God or to chase after other gods, not based on whether we have perfect obedience. While everyone in the OT sinned, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods. In Deuteronomy 28, it describes the blessing of relying on God's law and the curse of not relying on it, so being set free from the curse of God's law is being set free from not relying on it so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of relying on it. God is a loving Father who knows how to give gifts to His children for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so he did not give His law in order to curse His children and thinking that is something that He would do is expressing an extremely negative view of Him.

Rom 5:20 'The law was added (given) so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted it with the law of sin that held him captive. If Romans 5:20 were referring to the Law of God, then that would mean that Paul delighted in causing sin to increase, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that causes sin to increase.

Gal 3:23-25 'Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

So the law exposes our sin. We see ourselves as we truly are. And having seen the problem, we will then look for the solution - which is that through the death of the Lord Jesus, we may be declared righteous in God's sight through faith in what Jesus has done on our behalf.

There is a reason the Bible says 'there is none who does good, not even one. All came short of God's glory.

Does that then mean because we are saved, we no longer have to keep God's commandments? Don't even think about it. Who loves Lord Jesus, keeps His commandments, but we do not keep His commandments to be saved, because God already provided the payment for the sins of every born again believer.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3). So the law leads us to Jesus because it teaches us how to know him.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

There are many people who are described as being righteous in the Bible, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so Paul was not denying in Romans 3:10 that anyone is righteous, but rather he was quoting from Psalms 14:1-3, which says that no one is righteous among those who say that there is not God.

I agree that we are not required to obey God's law first in order to become saved as the result as if it could be earned as a wage, however, I still see living in obedience to God's law as being an intrinsic part of the gift of being saved from not living in obedience to it.

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

I agree that we are not required to obey God's law first in order to become saved as the result as if it could be earned as a wage, however, I still see living in obedience to God's law as being an intrinsic part of the gift of being saved from not living in obedience to it.

Deu 6:17 You shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies and his statutes, which he has commanded you.

When was the last time you made a sin offering, or a peace offering, or a grain offering, or a guilt offering?

 

[BobRyan]

Psalms 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your Law is truth.

Are you in favor of following truth or not? Why or why not?

Amen! Follow TRUTH.

John 14 "I AM the Way the TRUTH and the LIFE"
John 17:17 "Sanctify them in Thy TRUTH Thy WORD is Truth"
2 Thess 2 "Those PERISH who did not receive a LOVE of the TRUTH"

John 3 "The World loved darkness rather than light".

The truth is -- that according to Is 66;23 - for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

 

[BobRyan]

Deu 6:17 You shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies and his statutes, which he has commanded you.

When was the last time you made a sin offering, or a peace offering, or a grain offering, or a guilt offering?

Heb 10:4-12 states that at the cross all the "animal sacrifice and grain offerings" cease.
In Dan 9 scripture predicts that at Christ's first coming He would cause sacrifice and offerings to cease.

Predictive Laws - fulfilled by the Messiah -- with the prediction fulfilled by Christ - ended at the cross.

1 Cor 5 "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain".

But this is not true of moral laws like "do not take God's name in vain" -- ,,

So no wonder that under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 the Law of God is written on heart and mind - where that Law is such that "Honor your father and mother -- is the first commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN -- included in the Law of God.

And God's statement on that unit of TEN is that "He spoke these TEN WORDS and added NO MORE" Deut 5:22 when speaking to the people from the cloud - by fire and a great voice.

It means that the 10 are "included" in the moral law of God even though animal sacrifice and offerings ceased at the cross as Heb 10 points out.

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

Heb 10:4-12 states that at the cross all the "animal sacrifice and grain offerings" cease.
In Dan 9 scripture predicts that at Christ's first coming He would cause sacrifice and offerings to cease.

Predictive Laws - fulfilled by the Messiah -- with the prediction fulfilled by Christ - ended at the cross.

1 Cor 5 "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain".

But this is not true of moral laws like "do not take God's name in vain" -- ,,

So no wonder that under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 the Law of God is written on heart and mind - where that Law is such that "Honor your father and mother -- is the first commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN -- included in the Law of God.

And God's statement on that unit of TEN is that "He spoke these TEN WORDS and added NO MORE" Deut 5:22 when speaking to the people from the cloud - by fire and a great voice.

It means that the 10 are "included" in the moral law of God even though animal sacrifice and offerings ceased at the cross as Heb 10 points out.

What about?

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

I did not say we shouldn't follow God's law and commandments, I said we are not capable of it.

That is only true of the lost according to Rom 8.

Galatians 3 10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.

True - because all start out as lost - as being in need of the gospel as Rom 3:19 says "every mouth shut and all the world accountable unto God" under the Law which defines what sin is.

But Rom 8 makes it clear that it is only the lost that "DO NOT submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:5-11

Since none of us keeps the law perfectly, we are all under a curse. Jesus Christ took this curse on Him so in Him we might be justified.

True - and when the lost become saved they are under the "NEW Covenant" with the "LAW of God written on the heart" Heb 8:6-12.

So then Rom 3:31 "what then? Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? ON the contrary - we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus

Does that then mean because we are saved, we no longer have to keep God's commandments? Don't even think about it. Who loves Lord Jesus, keeps His commandments, but we do not keep His commandments to be saved,

true.

because God already provided the payment for the sins of every born again believer.

Jesus died for the debt of sin of the whole world
"He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

The "many" of Matt 7 will be lost
The "few" of Matt 7 will be saved.

Rom 2:13-16 "it is not the HEARERS of the LAW that are just - but the DOERS of the LAW will be justified - ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"