Store owner allegedly killed over hanging Pride flag in Lake Arrowhead (California) - Shooter killed by police

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
16,912
10,618
Earth
✟146,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
stpaulsirvine said:
You mention that you are gay, suggesting that you wonder if being gay may bar you from membership. Perhaps you know that, according to traditional Orthodox teaching, homosexual activity is a sin like adultery, fornication, and other acts of sexual impurity. While we can’t choose our temptations, we can choose our response to temptation.
Your entire sexual-being is “outside”; that’s got to be rough, but we all have our crosses to bear!

Good thing heaven is a real place and not some “pie-in-the-sky” device to keep people in-line.
Yup.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,287
10,024
.
✟614,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Here is a statement from one Antiochian Orthodox Church:

If an LGBTQ+ individual intends to follow Christ in the Orthodox Church, he/she will need to face the issue of his/her sexuality. While Christ welcomes us as we are, He does not want us to stay in that same condition. Instead, He wants us to become Him. In the process of becoming like Christ, we must confront our sins and repent and turn away from them, turning instead toward a chaste lifestyle that honors God. Our priest and community of faithful in our local parish are there to help us do this, through prayer, counseling, and emotional support.​
Anyone who comes to the Orthodox Church with a repentant heart that acknowledges the sin of homosexual behavior will be lovingly accepted. LGBTQ+ individuals who instead insist on their right to such behavior and choose to live an actively sinful lifestyle without repentance, voluntarily remove themselves from communion with the rest of the Body of Christ.​

And one from a Greek parish
You mention that you are gay, suggesting that you wonder if being gay may bar you from membership. Perhaps you know that, according to traditional Orthodox teaching, homosexual activity is a sin like adultery, fornication, and other acts of sexual impurity. While we can’t choose our temptations, we can choose our response to temptation. Confession and forgiveness is available to those who struggle to resist sin, but the intention to continue the practice of homosexuality would indeed impede membership in the Orthodox Church. Furthermore, advocacy of it as an acceptable lifestyle within the church would be damaging to the community, which values the historic moral practice we have inherited.​
It’s not just homosexuality; the Orthodox Church opposes today’s cultural permissiveness in the area of sexuality generally, especially with regard to cohabitation, promiscuity, and various forms of eroticism. It has always maintained a strong position on the holiness of the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit and on the sanctity of marriage, where the gift of sexuality finds genuine fulfillment. Homosexuality is regarded as contrary to God’s revealed purpose in his creation of gender and marriage (Genesis 1-2), a position clearly affirmed by Christ (Mark 10:6-9). Nevertheless, homosexuality is not to be isolated as the only sin. It should be seen in the larger context of human sinfulness, which includes sins like fornication, idolatry, adultery, thievery, greed, and drunkenness, all of which according to St. Paul are obstacles to entering God’s kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).​


The concern isn't a homosexal becomong a Christian. The concern the potential problem of Christianity merging with LGBT. It kind of seems that way when churches are flying big LGBT flags.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,287
10,024
.
✟614,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
[AFAIK) the killer self-identified as a Christian, and while his actions are his alone, whatever motivated him to think that it would be a good idea to murder a fellow human being over her decision to fly a Pride flag, was based somewhat on his beliefs as a Christian.

We would expect that other Christians, innocent of this murder, to ask themselves if they were in any way complicit in this one man’s actions…but a total repudiation of the man as “not one of us” can be viewed as a reliance on the “no true Scotsman” fallacy because he also relied on the rhetoric that is daily championed by real, actual, Christians daily, both out in the world and in these forums.

Please have the intellectual honesty to at least acknowledge him as one of your* own or risk cease being regarded as any kind of spokesperson for your* in-group.


*this is generic and rhetorical, not “calling anyone out”
This is like when a school shooter happened to be trans and people were trying to pin it on the LGBT community. "They're not just coming for our children, they're out to kill them too!".
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,578
13,753
✟431,646.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Because people have a tendency to blame or condemn an entire group over the acts of one person. Note that focal point of the OP is that the murderer was (or claimed to be) a Christian. That seemed to be the main thrust of the thing.

That's based on what the murderer himself posted, though. The OP didn't come up with those social media posts himself, so how is it condemning an entire group to point out what the murderer had already posted? Besides, I would say that if you feel it condemns you or your entire group then maybe that's a good reason to think about why you apparently feel like you're being placed in the same bucket as this guy. I have no problem as an Orthodox Christian saying that the murderer certainly was a Christian of some kind (it's a rather low bar to take someone's own self-identification as a Christian as an indication of what they claim to be following), while at the same time maintaining that I see nothing of the love and guidance of our Savior in what he did. That should be the least controversial statement ever, I'd hope.

Is it that you feel like you can't say something similar without betraying a fellow Christian in favor of 'the world', or that you're just tired of having your religion associated with wackos, or....? If it's the latter, I 100% agree, but unfortunately that's the reality of belonging to a communal religion like Christianity, whereby unfortunately given the way that it has developed in the West in the last 500-odd years since the founding of Protestantism, there's not a lot of quality control or even holistic pastoral guidance. Time was, in the long long ago (and now, for the more traditional churches), people like the shooter who would send out messages threatening violence or even commit violence could be dealt with by nearest ecclesiastical authorities (see, e.g., the condemnation of the earlier-mentioned Bashmurians by the Coptic Orthodox Church of the time; it is only in later Coptic sources that they were reevaluated positively as Coptic proto-nationalists and resistance fighters against Islamic oppression). The result was often mixed at best (the Bashmurian revolts still carried on for a few centuries), but least there was clear guidance, so that no one could say that the Church was somehow behind the revolts or in cahoots with those participating in them. (Not that this stops anyone from doing that, then or now.)

The difference between this setup and some lone wing-nut carrying out what is essentially stochastic terrorism (wherein his inspiration can't be traced back to a single leader or group of them who told him to do this, a la Al Qaeda or ISIS or whatever) ought to be obvious enough, but so long as the dominant form of American Christianity continues to be one that prizes the individual's interpretation of whatever they're taking in (in keeping with America's secular individualist ethos), we're all going to have to deal with the reality wherein the maniac with his own idea of what taking the 'narrow road' means -- and the armaments to clear his way to insta-salvation for being so darn righteous in standing up against a world full of rainbow sinners -- does more to represent our religion in the imagination of the emerging possible non-Christian majority than one or a million sermons about forgiveness or exercising mastery over the passions or anything more traditional than "gay bad" ever could. 'We' (in quotes because it even includes those of us who are in traditional churches that don't put up with this entire approach to religion) have entirely lost control of the messaging or branding of Christianity, to use marketing terms that are American Evangelicalism-compliant. Now I want you to think about this for a second: in this context, is it more important that you register that it is unfair that some of our detractors are painting with too broad a brush when they present such events like they're embraced by the majority of Christians (most of whom don't even live in the USA, of course), or is it more important that we not give into feelings of being unfairly maligned and instead join the majority (Christian and non) who see an event like this happen and say "This sort of thing should never happen, and the fact that it is being given religious or quasi-religious justification is indicative of a major sickness in the soul of American Christianity that needs to be addressed holistically and pastorally (read: to the people in the pews, in a way that they will be receptive to precisely because they rely on an assumed embrace of Christianity by those same people) if we ever want this to stop"?

A loaded question, no doubt, but it was only a few days that I pointed out to a poster on this website that the virtual salivating that they were doing at the thought of denying gay people rights that they now legally have was really weird and off-putting, so I don't think we're as far away from the basic impulses that can drive this sort of thing to happen as most of us would probably like to think we are. Again, going back to traditional Christian anthropology for a second, I am against the LGBT-ification of existence in large part because of the dehumanization it does to people and the whole idea of what it means to be human, but I also recognize there is a world of difference between that type of dehumanization, which is completed once the mind is captured by the secular ethos to the point that breaking out of it to return to any earlier/more well-established way of looking at the world feels like 'going backwards' (which is an idea that itself really only makes sense if you believe in the infinite perfectibility of man without God, which is another cornerstone of the secular worldview), and the type of dehumanization accomplished with literal bullets that leave people dead in the street because they hung up a flag that someone didn't like. At least the former can be argued against and people can be challenged regarding their assumptions about the world. There's no arguing with bullets. Bullets are stupid.

It would be good if people would think about these dimensions of the war we are fighting for the soul of our religion, and for its image and reality before wider society, rather than giving surface-level takes of "gay is bad" or what have you. How does "gay is bad" answer the deep longing for wholeness and genuine participation in He Who is without beginning or end? Not to put too fine a point on it, but how does "gay is bad" answer that longing in people who swim everyday in the puddle-deep wastewater of American secularism and hence have already completely bought off on its anthropology without even realizing that this is what they are doing, and therefore are already totally on board with everything LGBT and other person-mutilating doctrine? To say that repeating the message of "gay is bad" is not winning them over is probably the understatement of the new millennium, but my point is more that it doesn't prompt any deeper self-reflection, either, so I don't see how simply identifying that is good enough to really help anyone in any fashion. It goes beyond whether or not it 'needs' to be said, to me (because again, I'm coming at this from an Orthodox Christian perspective, wherein this is a settled issue, so it is very rarely discussed, at least internally in the Egyptian Church), and instead enters the realm of "What else could we be saying if we want to get to the roots of what we have to offer as Christians that is sorely lacking in society as it has evolved since the widespread abandonment of Christianity following the so-called 'Enlightenment' in Europe?" Because that's the true background of American Christianity, as we know it today: Enlightenment values, perhaps mixed with some pietistic flourishes from the later echoes of the Protestant Reformation. In other words, compared to more traditional Christianities like Orthodoxy or traditional Roman Catholicism, the roots of Christianity in modern America are already largely secular. The only thing that has changed more recently that I can tell is that people no longer feel the social pressure to self-identify with something that they largely never practice in any sense anyway unless they happen to win an Oscar or a football game.

Secularists being mean to or realistic with Christians didn't create the mess that is American Christianity, and no one can fix it by just being straight even harder than ever before or whatever. This requires real work, real soul searching, and I'm going to say real metanias on the part of those who see American Christianity (read: Evangelical Protestant hegemony; would that American Christianity stood for anything else in our time) as worth saving. And, fittingly, no one else can do it for you. It has to come internally from the people themselves.

Sounds like maybe you're talking about sugar coating it to make it more palatable.

With respect, it sounds like it to you because we are just too far apart in mindset. Rather than sugar coating anything, what is actually going on is that I'm not going to clap like a trained seal with delight at your recognition that sin is sin, in the same way that (e.g.) Muslims and Jews get no special commendations from Orthodox Christians for being able to count when declaring, as their respective religions do, that God is one. That's the basics, which do not destroy any further distinctions that are to be made (i.e., why Judaism, Islam, and all other non-Christian religions are false and not salvific). You don't even need to be a Christian to know that Christianity is against homosexuality, so my question is what are you doing with the truth that you already recognize? Are you using it like a cudgel to beat people with it until they magically stop 'being gay' or supporting gay or whatever? I have no interest in that, frankly. My own sins are what will condemn me before the Just Judge, not others', and even then I would rather show mercy to an errant person than be harsh, and by that lack of mercy make obvious the spirit that is truly driving me, and that that spirit is not that of the One about Whom we pray in the closing lines of every hour of the Agpeya that He "does not desire the death of the sinner, but that he returns and lives." We want to return to God with as many saints around us as we can, which probably means that at least some of them will not be ones we necessarily recognized while we and they struggled upon the earth together. Read up on the story from the life of Abba Bishoy regarding the miracle of his carrying Christ upon his back in the desert, if you are interested in what this means in practice for Orthodox Christians. That's not just an interesting story -- it teaches us a thing or two about not being in such a hurry to be 'right' (as 'we' already are, not because of any great luck or superiority ourselves, but because the faith itself was delivered once for all, perfect and complete from the holy mouth of our Savior and His most blessed and honored apostles and disciples) that we leave others by the wayside.

Personally I go by how Jesus, Paul, Moses, and the Prophets are on record when it comes to speaking against sin which is extremely harsh in numerous instances. Many seem to want to have those numerous instances removed to where there's just some sort of warm fuzzy feel good about yourself Tony Robbins-ish remnant.

To greatly abbreviate the prayer of the absolution of the ministers from the Liturgy of St. Basil, I go from the mouth of the all-holy Trinity, and from the mouth of all of our holy fathers past and present, and from the mouth of the 318 assembled at Nicaea, the 150 assembled at Constantinople, and the 200 assembled at Ephesus.

(Not found: Tony Robbins or any other modern guru. Can we please stick to explicitly Christian examples, since we're two Christians having this conversation?)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,776
18,614
Orlando, Florida
✟1,268,413.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't think it's strictly due to Protestantism's fractures.

Mainline Protestants have been at least thinking about how to engage with a post-Christian world on fair and ethical terms for some time. It's relatively new for American Evangelicals, however. Modern Evangelicalism (which isn't that old) got started in the late 40's, at a time when Christianity as a whole had a great deal of cultural cachet and institutional power.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,776
18,614
Orlando, Florida
✟1,268,413.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
This is like when a school shooter happened to be trans and people were trying to pin it on the LGBT community. "They're not just coming for our children, they're out to kill them too!".

Except Laura Carleton's killer acted in the name of his religion, whereas the shooter in Nashville didn't kill for an ideology.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,776
18,614
Orlando, Florida
✟1,268,413.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
The concern isn't a homosexal becomong a Christian. The concern the potential problem of Christianity merging with LGBT. It kind of seems that way when churches are flying big LGBT flags.

That isn't helping any that you think that's somehow a problem that contributes to radicalization of Christians. That's frankly like blaming the victim.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,578
13,753
✟431,646.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I don't think it's strictly due to Protestantism's fractures.

Mainline Protestants have been at least thinking about how to engage with a post-Christian world on fair and ethical terms for some time. It's relatively new for American Evangelicals, however. Modern Evangelicalism (which isn't that old) got started in the late 40's, at a time when Christianity as a whole had a great deal of cultural cachet and institutional power.

Not strictly, no, though another way to look it could recognize that modern Evangelicalism takes Protestantism as its starting point/base assumptions (in the sense that Evangelicalism didn't come directly out Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Nestorianism), then removes most things that still clearly tie the more traditional forms of Protestantism to Catholicism. Luther revised a liturgy, y'know what I mean? I'm not aware of later, more radical reformers even doing that, since from what I understand there is to this day a considerable section of Protestantism ('independent' Baptists, maybe? I'm not too hip to who is who once we get beyond the mainline churches, since I was raised Presbyterian, not a snake-handler) that views having any pre-written prayers as verboten, or at least extremely suspect and ultimately disfavored.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,578
13,753
✟431,646.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
The "victim" has a ton of clout and is really good at manipulation. It's an organization seeking as much power and as much of a foothold as it can get. And is succeeding greatly.

Did this woman get murdered for 'clout'? If she didn't, I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Also, I wasn't aware that LGBT-ism was driven by a single organization. What is its name?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,776
18,614
Orlando, Florida
✟1,268,413.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
Not strictly, no, though another way to look it could recognize that modern Evangelicalism takes Protestantism as its starting point/base assumptions (in the sense that Evangelicalism didn't come directly out Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Nestorianism), then removes most things that still clearly tie the more traditional forms of Protestantism to Catholicism. Luther revised a liturgy, y'know what I mean? I'm not aware of later, more radical reformers even doing that, since from what I understand there is to this day a considerable section of Protestantism ('independent' Baptists, maybe? I'm not too hip to who is who once we get beyond the mainline churches, since I was raised Presbyterian, not a snake-handler) that views having any pre-written prayers as verboten, or at least extremely suspect and ultimately disfavored.

You can have a tradition in the absence of extensive liturgy. Traditional Quakers don't have any liturgy per se (just "waiting worship" as they call it), but they pass down a sense of identity through the way they live.

At my current church, alot of the prayer is semi-extemporaneous, and in some ways our worship isn't that different from Baptists. But I think you'ld find a Congregationalist has alot more in common with an Orthodox Christian, than a Southern Baptist that believes in Dispensationalist eschatology or a purely symbolic view of the "ordinances" as they call them.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: dzheremi
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,287
10,024
.
✟614,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That isn't helping any that you think that's somehow a problem that contributes to radicalization of Christians. That's frankly like blaming the victim.
Is the idea to take this incident and make it out to be that Christians are a radicalized terrorist group? You like to put "fundies" into a separate group. But the Christian hating world in general probably isn't going to make that distinction.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,287
10,024
.
✟614,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Did this woman get murdered for 'clout'? If she didn't, I don't see what that has to do with anything.
I somehow misread the post. Usually when I see "victim" it's in reference to the whole community/organization.
Also, I wasn't aware that LGBT-ism was driven by a single organization. What is its name?
It's still called a community, but it's been an organization for quite a while now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
16,912
10,618
Earth
✟146,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
This is like when a school shooter happened to be trans and people were trying to pin it on the LGBT community. "They're not just coming for our children, they're out to kill them too!".
1. We don’t (yet) know the motivation of the transgender shooter
2. That the person was transgender might not have anything to do with the shootings?
3. Even if the FTM person’s transgenderism was a factor (testosterone dose too high for this individual?); ready access to guns doesn’t help
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,776
18,614
Orlando, Florida
✟1,268,413.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
I somehow misread the post. Usually when I see "victim" it's in reference to the whole community/organization.

It's still called a community, but it's been an organization for quite a while now.

A community isn't an organization. The LGBT community has institutions, but isn't itself an institution, and certainly has no centralized authority structure.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,287
10,024
.
✟614,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
1. We don’t (yet) know the motivation of the transgender shooter
2. That the person was transgender might not have anything to do with the shootings?
3. Even if the FTM person’s transgenderism was a factor (testosterone dose too high for this individual?); ready access to guns doesn’t help
It doesn't matter one way or another. Both people acted on their own volition. Their motivation was their own self interest.
 
Upvote 0

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

My dad died 1/12/2023. I'm still devastated.
Jul 1, 2007
17,290
5,062
Native Land
✟333,625.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I lived in LA county for 18 years. I've vacationed in Lake Arrowhead.
Then you know there's a bunch of Conservatives that dislike LGBT and the LGBT flag. You would know that Lake Arrowhead has plenty of Conservatives and Democrats. And shouldn't be surprised this shooting happened over a LGBT flag.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,287
10,024
.
✟614,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Then you know there's a bunch of Conservatives that dislike LGBT and the LGBT flag. You would know that Lake Arrowhead has plenty of Conservatives and Democrats. And shouldn't be surprised this shooting happened over a LGBT flag.
SoCal is one of the most liberal areas in the country as opposed to some southern state. That's all I was saying. There's no reason to get upset over it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
16,912
10,618
Earth
✟146,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
SoCal is one of the most liberal areas in the country as opposed to some southern state. That's all I was saying. There's no reason to get upset over it.
Wow.
A woman is dead.
Her killer is dead.
But what did we expect to happen with all of the liberalism oozing about?

Really?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0