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Florida ‘effectively’ bans Advanced Placement Psychology course due to curriculum's discussion of gender and sexual orientation

atpollard

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I thought that the government dictating what medical procedures patients decide to obtain, (we’re not allowed to make horrible mistakes?) was part of the “nanny-state” that Conservatives (used to) decry?

What changed?
I cannot speak for all "Conservatives", but ...
  • I have always been opposed to exploitation of children for labor (and supportive of Child Labor Laws).
  • I have always been opposed to Human Trafficking (and supportive of laws that protect women and children from sexual exploitation).
  • I have always been opposed to child abuse (and supportive of Child protection laws, even when critical of the function of the agencies that enforce them poorly).
Therefore, it seems a continuation of my longstanding policy to oppose the mutilation of children for social/political ideology (and support Laws that seek to deter such activity).

You missed the point of the Congressional Testimony: These are CHILDREN - so THEY are not the ones making the choices, they are just the people being manipulated/mutilated and suffering the lifetime of consequences [including a high suicide rate POST TRANSITION].
 
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Belk

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I cannot speak for all "Conservatives", but ...
  • I have always been opposed to exploitation of children for labor (and supportive of Child Labor Laws).
  • I have always been opposed to Human Trafficking (and supportive of laws that protect women and children from sexual exploitation).
  • I have always been opposed to child abuse (and supportive of Child protection laws, even when critical of the function of the agencies that enforce them poorly).
Therefore, it seems a continuation of my longstanding policy to oppose the mutilation of children for social/political ideology (and support Laws that seek to deter such activity).

You missed the point of the Congressional Testimony: These are CHILDREN - so THEY are not the ones making the choices, they are just the people being manipulated/mutilated and suffering the lifetime of consequences [including a high suicide rate POST TRANSITION].
Is it your claim that the medical professionals who deal with this issue are incorrect in their assessments of proper treatment? If so what do you base this claim on?
 
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atpollard

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Is it your claim that the medical professionals who deal with this issue are incorrect in their assessments of proper treatment? If so what do you base this claim on?
That is my opinion, but not my claim. This topic is discussing a law banning the discussion of gender transition as part of K-12 public education. I am expressing support for THAT law in this topic. The funds spent on "gender fluidity education" would be better invested in Art and Music programs that have demonstrable positive results at improving the quality of education by helping children learn creativity and expression.
 
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Belk

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That is my opinion, but not my claim.
Thank you for the clarification.

This topic is discussing a law banning the discussion of gender transition as part of K-12 public education. I am expressing support for THAT law in this topic. The funds spent on "gender fluidity education" would be better invested in Art and Music programs that have demonstrable positive results at improving the quality of education by helping children learn creativity and expression.
I disagree with the first part as I believe the outlawing of discussion to be bad in general. I do agree with increasing art and music. While I am in a STEM field I think the focus on those subjects ignores a well rounded education.
 
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essentialsaltes

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From the link in the OP:
In practice, the only real requirement is for teaching the definitions of sexual orientation and gender identity and the difference between them, said Elliott Hammer, professor of psychology at Xavier University of Louisiana and chief reader for AP psychology exams. “It’s a pretty small topic,” he said.​
Teachings about gender identity and sexual orientation, he said, were “always optional.”​

It appears you have inadvertently misattributed the quotes in the article to result in a confusion of their meaning. Those 'he's are not the same person. The second person is not talking about AP Psychology. He is "Thomas Rodgers, a spokesman for Cambridge International," who is describing the course his firm offers, not AP Psychology. Professor Hammer is accurately describing the small, but not optional, element of AP Psych that has been banned by Florida's law, which prevents all discussion of these topics.

Seems like another manufactured issue.​

Yes, this small element of the AP Psych course syllabus has been unchanged and inoffensive for 30 years, and Florida has recently manufactured this outrage, banning content as harmless as the mere definitions of gender identity and sexual orientation.
 
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essentialsaltes

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A reminder to all. The topic is the AP Psychology class, for which "In practice, the only real requirement is for teaching the definitions of sexual orientation and gender identity and the difference between them"

This is teaching about gender and orientation. Just as we can teach about Christianity or Buddhism without teaching Christianity or Buddhism in the schools.

However, since all discussion of these topics is banned by law in Florida, so is this information from the course description.

The topic of the thread is not medical procedures, labor laws, psychiatry, or child abuse.
 
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rjs330

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What's your evidence that gender is entirely binary?
Biology.
Gender, as opposed to sex, is a function of a person's identity. It's how they view themselves within the spectrum of male to female. Some who identify as male may be more "masculine" than others, others less so. Maybe they don't care for sports, or prefer musical theatre, whatever. Thing is, even when someone identifies as "male", that doesn't always mean the same thing to every man.

Same for women. Some women don't like "girly-girl" stuff, and may even prefer sports to musical theatre themselves.

So, how is that binary? At best, it's a spectrum, a range someone considers himself or herself within.
That's the claim. However it fails in th face of science. What you are talking about is not gender. It's personality.

Please explain why if gender is just an identity then why are people trying to change their biology?

So what if a man doesn't like sports or prefer musical theater. What only women can be like that? What about women who love sports and don't like musical theatre? Are they then men? What you are referring to is a persons personal likes and dislikes and those do NOT determine if you are a woman or a man. Your sex does that. What you do and do not like does not. Gender is binary determined by your sex. What you like and dislike is is based on personal tastes and personality. You do not need by any stretch of the imagination to alter your body just because you are a girl who likes sports and carpentry. You don't need slice your penis in half just cause you enjoy musicals and cleaning the house. Man talk about forcing people into gender roles.
And...since one's personal identity is entirely subjective, there is no evidence to prove their personal experience is invalid or wrong.

So....if you wish to claim there's no evidence that gender, a function of personal identity, isn't binary, I have to ask: what's your evidence that it is?

-- A2SG, and what kind of evidence would you use to refute personal, subjective experience anyway.....
I just told you. Biology. You just made my point that gender is not scientific. There is zero evidence for it. It's pure sophistry.

If someone wants to identify as a bullfrog, sew on an extra length of tongue, alter their eyes to bug out, chop off their feet and sew on flippers and take frog genes to change their voice to croak you wouldn't be standing here trying to tell us all that it's just a personal identity. You would be telling us that person needs psychological help.

Biology determines what you are. That's science. There is nothing wrong with you if you are a boy who likes to do the dishes and laundry while your wife prefers to mow the lawn.
 
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rjs330

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So sez you, and that’s great, for you.
For the people whose sex doesn’t match their “gender” it’s not so great.

You offer them nothing except “you got girl parts then you’re a girl, you got boy parts then you’re a boy!”
No wonder they commit unaliving themselves.
Sez me? Are you aware that there are therapists, biologists and endocrinologists that say the same thing? I can't imagine that you believe some rando on an Internet forum is the only dude that knows this. There is no such thing as gender beyond the binary.

And I don't just offer them what you claim. There are many therapists that work with kids in this are who do not use affirmative care cause they recognize it's biased and activist roots. I didn't come up with this all by myself.
Yes you are a boy cause you have boy parts and you are a girl if you have girl parts. If you think you are a girl and you have boy parts we have to start with why. Why do they feel that way. It's a whole therapeutic thing. Can take years of therapy to determine what is going on. And then start working on those things. True therapists know this. A boy who claims he feels like a girl has NO CLUE what that means. Cause he's not a girl. Therapy can sort through these things and get to the bottom of it. Maybe it's just cause he likes dolls and feels like that since he likes dolls he must be a girl. A good therapist can help him through that and accept the fact he is just a boy who likes dolls.

Man you really need to broaden your horizons.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Biology.

That's the claim. However it fails in th face of science. What you are talking about is not gender. It's personality.

Please explain why if gender is just an identity then why are people trying to change their biology?

So what if a man doesn't like sports or prefer musical theater. What only women can be like that? What about women who love sports and don't like musical theatre? Are they then men? What you are referring to is a persons personal likes and dislikes and those do NOT determine if you are a woman or a man. Your sex does that. What you do and do not like does not. Gender is binary determined by your sex. What you like and dislike is is based on personal tastes and personality. You do not need by any stretch of the imagination to alter your body just because you are a girl who likes sports and carpentry. You don't need slice your penis in half just cause you enjoy musicals and cleaning the house. Man talk about forcing people into gender roles.

I just told you. Biology. You just made my point that gender is not scientific. There is zero evidence for it. It's pure sophistry.

If someone wants to identify as a bullfrog, sew on an extra length of tongue, alter their eyes to bug out, chop off their feet and sew on flippers and take frog genes to change their voice to croak you wouldn't be standing here trying to tell us all that it's just a personal identity. You would be telling us that person needs psychological help.

Biology determines what you are. That's science. There is nothing wrong with you if you are a boy who likes to do the dishes and laundry while your wife prefers to mow the lawn.
well said - I find it interesting that when it comes to Covid or climate - denying the 'science' is used as a weakness, but when it comes to gender - denying the 'science' is embraced.

Certainly not by all.
 
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Pommer

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Sez me? Are you aware that there are therapists, biologists and endocrinologists that say the same thing? I can't imagine that you believe some rando on an Internet forum is the only dude that knows this. There is no such thing as gender beyond the binary.

And I don't just offer them what you claim. There are many therapists that work with kids in this are who do not use affirmative care cause they recognize it's biased and activist roots. I didn't come up with this all by myself.
Yes you are a boy cause you have boy parts and you are a girl if you have girl parts. If you think you are a girl and you have boy parts we have to start with why. Why do they feel that way. It's a whole therapeutic thing. Can take years of therapy to determine what is going on. And then start working on those things. True therapists know this. A boy who claims he feels like a girl has NO CLUE what that means. Cause he's not a girl. Therapy can sort through these things and get to the bottom of it. Maybe it's just cause he likes dolls and feels like that since he likes dolls he must be a girl. A good therapist can help him through that and accept the fact he is just a boy who likes dolls.

Man you really need to broaden your horizons.
The OP has issued a declaration of the topic and asks that we limit our conversations to that narrow debate, I intend to honor that and will take this (broader) issue up with you on another thread.
Fair thee well.
 
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Truth7t7

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Oh the law stifles “free-speech” that make it wise? Okay.
Pfft.
The US Supreme Court will decide if the law stifles free speech, I don't believe it has been heard in this court yet

Colorado made laws stifling "free speech", forcing Christians to do things against their will (Cake Baker) (Web Designer) the Colorado law was ruled unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court

No it wasn't wise for the liberal leadership in Colorado to create the law that stifled a Christians free speech
 
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rjs330

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Since gender, as opposed to sex, is a function of one's identity....how could it not?

What do you think gender is based on, if not identity and personal experience?
Gender is not based on anything but sex. You first have to assume that it's not. But the assumption is not based upon anything.

What is identity? What are you identifying as?
If that person isn't harming anyone, or himself, who cares?
What's you your evidence they are not harming themselves or anyone else. You first have to define harm. So what is the definition of harm?
 
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NxNW

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The topic of the thread - you should begin with post #1 and then read contextually and you would not have to ask. But I am always happy to assist as needed. My Pleasure.
It's not manufactured if a longstanding class is banned.
 
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atpollard

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A reminder to all. The topic is the AP Psychology class, for which "In practice, the only real requirement is for teaching the definitions of sexual orientation and gender identity and the difference between them"
The Cambridge Curriculum proves that it is NOT a requirement. I can take AP Psychology under the Cambridge Program (to prepare me for College Abroad) and have the course recognized by Oxford or any other University in Europe. It is the American College Board that is attempting to make it a requirement.

This is teaching about gender and orientation. Just as we can teach about Christianity or Buddhism without teaching Christianity or Buddhism in the schools.

However, since all discussion of these topics is banned by law in Florida, so is this information from the course description.
It COULD in theory, just as “separate but equal” could be equal in theory … history suggests that in practice neither is reality.

The topic of the thread is not medical procedures, labor laws, psychiatry, or child abuse.
Except when those issues are raised in direct response to a question about WHY one would support the law under discussion and the reason is the same in all cases (protecting children).

Technically, what is there to discuss. The LAW was passed and is the LAW.
  • Should schools violate state laws they disagree with?
  • What if a teacher disagrees with “gun control laws”, should they then violate those laws, too?
  • Since the drinking age is a state law, should schools disregard that law and serve Bud Light to minors (to support inclusion and fight the boycott)?
 
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essentialsaltes

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The Cambridge Curriculum proves that it is NOT a requirement.

It is a requirement of the AP Psychology class, which is the topic of this thread.
 
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