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My Gospel by Paul

All Becomes New

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Also, you had issue with my statement in post #44, so i then reworded it to what i put in Post #50, which then you were ok with. Most people would say that both statements essentially say the same thing but you were saying no, words matter. But now all of a sudden when it comes to the scripture you say words don't matter, ie different words, same message!! What a turn around.

I happen to think that words do matter to an extent but more importantly the apostles, especially a scholar like Paul was, said what they meant and meant what they said, ie their words matter & they said different things so different message.

The concepts matter more than the words do. And Peter and Paul both used language to meet their needs in evangelism, but their message (concepts) were exactly the same.

You were talking about the ability to do otherwise. That is what I was originally objecting to. Why? Because if free will means the ability to do otherwise then there are possible worlds where you would do the opposite of what you did even though everything else was the same including your motivations and emotions. It's absurd.
 
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"What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have observed and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— that life was revealed, and we have seen it and we testify and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us— what we have seen and heard we also declare to you, so that you may also have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ the righteous one. He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 1:1–4; 2:1–2)

John was writing to the church in Ephesus which was primarily a Gentile church with a few Jews.

"But now in Christ Jesus, you who were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both groups [Jews and Gentiles] one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In his flesh, he made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that he might create in himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. He did this so that he might reconcile both [Jews and Gentiles] to God in one body through the cross by which he put the hostility to death." (Ephesians 2:13–16)

Written to the same exact people. And what is Paul's hope? That the Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ (Galatians 3:28).



I'm gonna stop you right there. Christ does not come back to the earth twice and that is required for a Pre-Trib Rapture which is nowhere in the Bible.

"It is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength on that day when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marveled at by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed." (2 Thessalonians 1:5–10)

Christ returns to those who are "suffering" and "afflicted." Thessalonica was a Gentile church. Paul is saying "You gentiles who are suffering and afflicted: God will repay those who persecute you when He comes with vengeance to give you relief."

There is no way to read that other than that the Gentile church will be on Earth when Christ comes back. So do you want to say that 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 is not talking about the second coming? Please do your exegesis of that. Otherwise, the rapture, Christ coming for His bride, is completely compatible with other passages in the Bible where Christ returns once. When Christ returns, the dead are raised FIRST. THEN, those in Christ will rise. THEN we will escort Christ back to the Earth. What is my basis for this? The word ἀπάντησις, which is only used in two other places besides 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In BOTH other cases, it means, "To escort back [to a place]." That's literally what the context means in all three places (Matthew 25:6; Acts 28:16 for your reference).

Finally, there's this other word and it signifies very clearly the "Day of the Lord." It is παρουσία which means "coming." Found in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

"For we say this to you by a word from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep..." (1 Thessalonians 4:15)
[A]nd then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will bring him to nothing at the appearance of his coming." (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
Thessalonians was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, so up until that time or shortly after, people probably thought the return of Jesus was imminent hence Paul's language. So it is talking about the 2nd coming but the timing was wrong. They had no idea it was far away in the future yet. No one knows the hour or the day, not even Paul knew.

As to the rapture, that's Jesus returning for the church, the body of Christ. The Jews are the bride of Christ, not the church, we are His body.
Jesus marries the bride when He returns to earth in the 2nd coming at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
 
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The concepts matter more than the words do. And Peter and Paul both used language to meet their needs in evangelism, but their message (concepts) were exactly the same.

You were talking about the ability to do otherwise. That is what I was originally objecting to. Why? Because if free will means the ability to do otherwise then there are possible worlds where you would do the opposite of what you did even though everything else was the same including your motivations and emotions. It's absurd.
So are you saying that if i have an apple & an orange in front of me and need to choose 1 I cannot choose either. So if i pick the orange is that to say the reality where i pick the apple could never have come to pass? Because I chose the orange I could never have chosen the apple?
 
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All Becomes New

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So are you saying that if i have an apple & an orange in front of me and need to choose 1 I cannot choose either. So if i pick the orange is that to say the reality where i pick the apple could never have come to pass? Because I chose the orange I could never have chosen the apple?

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying if you were to rewind the clock you would have picked the same one every time you did that.
 
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"What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have observed and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— that life was revealed, and we have seen it and we testify and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us— what we have seen and heard we also declare to you, so that you may also have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ the righteous one. He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 1:1–4; 2:1–2)

John was writing to the church in Ephesus which was primarily a Gentile church with a few Jews.

"But now in Christ Jesus, you who were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both groups [Jews and Gentiles] one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In his flesh, he made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that he might create in himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. He did this so that he might reconcile both [Jews and Gentiles] to God in one body through the cross by which he put the hostility to death." (Ephesians 2:13–16)

Written to the same exact people. And what is Paul's hope? That the Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ (Galatians 3:28).



I'm gonna stop you right there. Christ does not come back to the earth twice and that is required for a Pre-Trib Rapture which is nowhere in the Bible.

"It is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength on that day when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marveled at by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed." (2 Thessalonians 1:5–10)

Christ returns to those who are "suffering" and "afflicted." Thessalonica was a Gentile church. Paul is saying "You gentiles who are suffering and afflicted: God will repay those who persecute you when He comes with vengeance to give you relief."

There is no way to read that other than that the Gentile church will be on Earth when Christ comes back. So do you want to say that 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 is not talking about the second coming? Please do your exegesis of that. Otherwise, the rapture, Christ coming for His bride, is completely compatible with other passages in the Bible where Christ returns once. When Christ returns, the dead are raised FIRST. THEN, those in Christ will rise. THEN we will escort Christ back to the Earth. What is my basis for this? The word ἀπάντησις, which is only used in two other places besides 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In BOTH other cases, it means, "To escort back [to a place]." That's literally what the context means in all three places (Matthew 25:6; Acts 28:16 for your reference).

Finally, there's this other word and it signifies very clearly the "Day of the Lord." It is παρουσία which means "coming." Found in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

"For we say this to you by a word from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep..." (1 Thessalonians 4:15)
[A]nd then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will bring him to nothing at the appearance of his coming." (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
"Written to the same exact people. And what is Paul's hope? That the Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ (Galatians 3:28)."
Yes, during the dispensation of Grace, ie under the specific Gospel of Grace that God instituted via the revelation to Paul there is no difference between Jew or Greek, all are saved the same way - by faith in Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior, that He died, was buried and rose again.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
The Gospel of Grace will end at the Rapture and then God will again deal with the Jews under the Law of Moses and the Gospel of the Kingdom, which s what Jesus taught to the Jews while He was alive. They could not have had faith in His death & resurrection as that had not happened yet. Jews express their faith by keeping the commandments under the Law of Moses
 
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There is no way to read that other than that the Gentile church will be on Earth when Christ comes back. So do you want to say that 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 is not talking about the second coming?
So you need to ask yourself, was this prophecy or was this a letter of encouragement based on Paul's belief at the time??

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 is not prophecy but it is encouragement based on Paul's belief at the time.
How many pastors have exhorted their congregations through the ages to be encouraged because the return of the Lord is imminent, as in, during their lifetimes?? Lots!
 
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No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying if you were to rewind the clock you would have picked the same one every time you did that.
So choice is not random, there are reasons why a choice was made & only one reality exists at any one time.
 
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All Becomes New

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So you need to ask yourself, was this prophecy or was this a letter of encouragement based on Paul's belief at the time??

Thessalonians 1:5-10 is not prophecy but it is encouragement based on Paul's belief at the time.
How many pastors have exhorted their congregations through the ages to be encouraged because the return of the Lord is imminent, as in, during their lifetimes?? Lots!

Is what Paul said true or not? I don't care what you call it. Most prophecy is not telling the future anyways. So it's special when someone does it.
 
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So choice is not random, there are reasons why a choice was made & only one reality exists at any one time.

Only one thing is going to happen at any given time regarding any thoughts, emotions, or behaviors a person has.
 
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Is what Paul said true or not? I don't care what you call it. Most prophecy is not telling the future anyways. So it's special when someone does it.
What Paul said did not come to pass. It was not prophecy. Prophecy is about the future. Paul's letter was & is a letter of encouragement to a church under persecution at the time and was written with what Paul understood & hoped at the time re the 2nd coming. No one knows the hour or the day, Paul certainly didn't.

It was not written as, "hey I am writing to you because you are going through these troubles but the bit about Jesus avenging you, don't worry about it, that is for another people in another time, they will know who they are" This is not what is going on here. Whenever someone prophecies in the bible it is called out at such, God is very careful here.
 
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All Becomes New

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What Paul said did not come to pass. It was not prophecy. Prophecy is about the future. Paul's letter was & is a letter of encouragement to a church under persecution at the time and was written with what Paul understood & hoped at the time re the 2nd coming. No one knows the hour or the day, Paul certainly didn't.

It was not written as, "hey I am writing to you because you are going through these troubles but the bit about Jesus avenging you, don't worry about it, that is for another people in another time, they will know who they are" This is not what is going on here. Whenever someone prophecies in the bible it is called out at such, God is very careful here.

Prophecy is reminding God's people of His promises for them. Full stop. It does not need to be telling the future.

This is the problem I have with Dispensationalists: Everything is sensationalized.
 
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Only one thing is going to happen at any given time regarding any thoughts, emotions, or behaviors a person has.
Do you subscribe to the view that 4 dimensional spacetime exists as a fixed entity in some higher dimensional reality, so the past, present & future all exist at the same time in this higher dimensionality?
 
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Do you subscribe to the view that 4 dimensional spacetime exists as a fixed entity in some higher dimensional reality, so the past, present & future all exist at the same time in this higher dimensionality?

I have no idea what that has to do with this conversation. But I am agnostic between A-Theory and B-Theory of time. My theological positions don't play a factor at all about that.
 
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Prophecy is reminding God's people of His promises for them. Full stop. It does not need to be telling the future.

This is the problem I have with Dispensationalists: Everything is sensationalized.
Again with the odd approach to words and their meaning:
Reminding people of Gods promises is called 'reminding people of Gods promises', also known as preaching or sharing the word of God etc

Prophecy means saying what is GOING to happen in the future literally
1692441742997.png
 
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This is the problem I have with Dispensationalists: Everything is sensationalized.
Not really because Dispensationalists maens we de-sensationalize a passage like 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 because it is NOT prophecy
 
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I have no idea what that has to do with this conversation. But I am agnostic between A-Theory and B-Theory of time. My theological positions don't play a factor at all about that.
ok, no problem, just curious, it has implications, not saying i buy into it though.
 
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All Becomes New

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Again with the odd approach to words and their meaning:
Reminding people of Gods promises is called 'reminding people of Gods promises', also known as preaching or sharing the word of God etc

Prophecy means saying what is GOING to happen in the future literally
View attachment 334779

That's a secular view of things. The image tells a different story. Pay attention to the highlighted bit.
 

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  • Easton Bible Dictionary Prophet.png
    Easton Bible Dictionary Prophet.png
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Sorn

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That's a secular view of things. The image tells a different story. Pay attention to the highlighted bit.
fine but you are mingling prophet with prophecy. A Prophet would and does give prophecy but they also preached, ministered, admonished etc.

Prophet & Prophecy are NOT the same thing. In any case Paul is not a prophet, he is an apostle.

So if in 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 he was prophecying he would have said words to the effect of, now i prophecy regarding the future or "yo congregation, the following don't apply to you but to folks yet to be born and live so chill" etc

Proper prohecy is always called out as such, God is very careful that way
 
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That's a secular view of things. The image tells a different story. Pay attention to the highlighted bit.
1 Cor 12:28 would suggest it was a dedicated role in the church in the NT, ie giving specific messages about future events, ie so when they spoke it was clear it was a prophetic message, ie foretelling the future. The other roles done by prophets in the OT was now done by other specific individuals
 
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