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Democracy is the worst form of government...

Whyayeman

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His perspective seems to be from a mixture of familiarity with Greek classics, and Christian realism.
Actually Churchill's comment was more about the two other systems that divided Europe during his political life - Fascism and Communism. The Roman system lasted for centuries and much of it remains embedded in our modern political systems, so don't reject it completely. There was a better welfare system in Rome than in Washington, for example. Bread was free to citizens. Clean water was available to all.

There are still hankerings for a 'benevolent dictatorship' in modern politics. They are just beneath the surface, even on this thread. I think there is an inherent and obvious danger with entrusting power in too few hands; once 'they' have it 'they' won't let go. There are many modern examples, from Cuba to North Korea, via Russia, Myanmar, China and more. It seems that they work best for 'them' and quite a lot less for the benefit of the populace.
 
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dzheremi

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The truth of the matter is, we don't need a new form of government (the old form being Democracy). Another poster at this Christian Forum (stevew) started a thread that discussed two main opposing views in the US - liberal and conservative. The gap between these two ideologies is the widest it has ever been and there appears to be no slowing down the gap. Many people I heard have suggested this answer and maybe its time we seriously consider it. Divide the US in half, one side liberal, one side conservative. Give people five years or so to pick up and get to the side they want to belong.

Instead of this constant fighting we have every election, polarizing people more and more, lets take example from my country Czechoslovakia and split the US in two. The last I checked (no pun intended) both countries (The Czech Republic and The Republic of Slovakia) are doing well. I don't see why we couldn't make it work here in the US (except for greed sticking its ugly nose in the situation).

I'm sure you are wondering how I would split the US. I think that should be determined by smarter people than me but make sure the citizens of the US hold those people's feet to the fire (and I mean literally, none of this "let's put this into committee for 10 years to consider it").

Is Slovakia doing all that well these days? I don't mean that as a challenge, but as a real question. I had an uncle who has since reposed who lived in Partizanske and taught English to workers in their shoe factory there for many years (20+), and from what I remember of our brief communications after he moved there, it seemed like a very 'rustic' place. He even sent me pictures from a trip to Bratislava for Christmas holidays, and it looked very quaint. Not necessarily poor or anything like that (I'm not sure what counts for rich or poor there; my uncle said he lived very comfortably on the equivalent of $200 USD per month, but again this was many years ago by this point), but like it was considerably less developed than a big, internationally-known city like Prague in its sister nation.

I bring that up because I would worry for the 'poorer' half of the U.S. in the event of such a split (even though it's not going to happen, no matter how much that makes some on both political poles sad). And there would be a poorer 'half', as there already is (the deep southern states, the rust belt...take your pick; a lot of the U.S. is poor compared to the urban centers on the East and West coasts). States like Mississippi and others already pay less to the federal government in taxes than they get from it in return, so we could reasonably imagine that such states would be immediately worse off than they currently are, and perhaps not too likely to be able to dig themselves out of that condition. Add to that that even some states that pay more than they get, like Texas, show that their famed/dreamed-of 'independence' is actually their Achilles heel (the 2021 power crisis in that state and the 246+ deaths attributed to it bearing witness). What would we do, in cases like that? How does it benefit anyone involved that the aid that would be sent to Texas (or Mississippi, or any famously politically conservative state) would have to be marked as 'foreign aid' rather than domestic?

Maybe I'm a weirdo because I don't want political adversaries to suffer on account of their wrong positions, but that would remain my concern. In every place where we think we have 'enemies', we also have friends, or at least people we ought to recognize as fellow human beings in need of cooperation and help, as we all need. I don't see any solution in destroying what little collective spirit the U.S. seems to have these days for the sake of having 'my' territory and 'their' territory. The point of the United States, at least in the modern day, as that we're...y'know...united. E pluribus unum and all that, even though that's always been more of a goal than a reality. That still ought to be the goal, in my mind. But again, maybe I'm a weirdo. Haha.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947

I've been thinking about this for quite some time (probably a lot more since the Brexit vote). There must surely be a way to improve the way we decide the major decisions that are needed to be made. Surely it's impossible to argue that what we have now is actually the best we can expect. As Winston also said:

'The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter'.

Somebody please cheer me up and tell me we can expect something better.

I have no words by which to cheer you up. For my part, I'm hard pressed to think of a place where "Democracy" has actually been fully implemented ...
 
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Whyayeman

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I have no words by which to cheer you up. For my part, I'm hard pressed to think of a place where "Democracy" has actually been fully implemented ...
There is a good form of democracy in USA. The separation and limitation of powers; devolution to constituent states: these are examples to the world. American democracy is not perfect and could be improved, no doubt. I suggest that America's problems lie elsewhere; concentration of economic power; concentration of power in the media; educational under-achievement. It is, I think, these inequalities which divide that nation.

There is not much wrong with the actual principles enshrined the American Constitution.
 
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FireDragon76

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There is a good form of democracy in USA. The separation and limitation of powers; devolution to constituent states: these are examples to the world. American democracy is not perfect and could be improved, no doubt. I suggest that America's problems lie elsewhere; concentration of economic power; concentration of power in the media; educational under-achievement. It is, I think, these inequalities which divide that nation.

There is not much wrong with the actual principles enshrined the American Constitution.

I think you are largely correct

As Benjamin Franklin was suppossed to have answered somebody when asked about what form of government the Continental Congress had decided upon "A Republic, if you can keep it".

Americans are in a period where old institutions that held our society together are no longer trusted by the masses of people, though, and that poses a challenge.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There is a good form of democracy in USA. The separation and limitation of powers; devolution to constituent states: these are examples to the world. American democracy is not perfect and could be improved, no doubt. I suggest that America's problems lie elsewhere; concentration of economic power; concentration of power in the media; educational under-achievement. It is, I think, these inequalities which divide that nation.

There is not much wrong with the actual principles enshrined the American Constitution.

I was alluding more to the writings of James Madison in the Federalist Papers in my previous statement.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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No democracy can be said to even truly be democratic. It's not the people who have power in a modern democracy, its the special influences and fundraisers of campaigns that have influence on the politicians. Democracy merely changes how elites rule, it doesnt give power to the voters any more than any other system does.
 
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FireDragon76

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No democracy can be said to even truly be democratic. It's not the people who have power in a modern democracy, its the special influences and fundraisers of campaigns that have influence on the politicians. Democracy merely changes how elites rule, it doesnt give power to the voters any more than any other system does.

Democracies may not be perfect, but a number of them score higher in degrees of transparency and lack of corruption.
 
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Whyayeman

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Democracy merely changes how elites rule
Democracies can change their elites. That is the point. Only those with the option of changing their governments have the luxury of thinking that is trivial or superficial.

Of course the wielding of influence in a democracy is an issue. We all want to influence national affairs by voting or by being active in politics. How can it be a bad thing that influence is brought to bear on politicians? I think the decisive factor will be whether it is open to public scrutiny or carried out in secret.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Democracies can change their elites. That is the point. Only those with the option of changing their governments have the luxury of thinking that is trivial or superficial.

Of course the wielding of influence in a democracy is an issue. We all want to influence national affairs by voting or by being active in politics. How can it be a bad thing that influence is brought to bear on politicians? I think the decisive factor will be whether it is open to public scrutiny or carried out in secret.
Can they? The trajectory of American democracy would seem to indicate radical change from and within the system is impossible since you have to be conformed to the system in order to advance within it.

My point wasn't to say that it was bad to have an elite, rather it was to point out that the pretenses of democracy, of the people being in charge, is false. The people have never been in charge, rather its always an elite class in charge and democracy hasn't changed that reality. It's only changed the form and type of elite in charge. Instead of a warrior class being dominant (like in feudal kingdoms) It's a merchant class that dominates America through campaign contributions.

Do you actually believe power rests in the people?
 
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Whyayeman

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My point wasn't to say that it was bad to have an elite, rather it was to point out that the pretenses of democracy, of the people being in charge, is false
I understand that. Now please demonstrate the truth of your assertion. The thread is to probe these facets of democracies as they exist. Merely to assert that democracy is empty, as you have, is easy but contributes nothing.

Do I believe power rests with the people? I think that question is loaded. I do believe that democracy, for all its faults, is better than totalitarianism. One could compare the lives of Americans and the British with Russians, North Koreans, Afghanis or Cubans. It is not just material wealth that counts.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I understand that. Now please demonstrate the truth of your assertion. The thread is to probe these facets of democracies as they exist. Merely to assert that democracy is empty, as you have, is easy but contributes nothing.

Do I believe power rests with the people? I think that question is loaded. I do believe that democracy, for all its faults, is better than totalitarianism. One could compare the lives of Americans and the British with Russians, North Koreans, Afghanis or Cubans. It is not just material wealth that counts.
Are there only two choices, totalitarianism and Democracy?
 
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rturner76

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‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947

I've been thinking about this for quite some time (probably a lot more since the Brexit vote). There must surely be a way to improve the way we decide the major decisions that are needed to be made. Surely it's impossible to argue that what we have now is actually the best we can expect. As Winston also said:

'The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter'.

Somebody please cheer me up and tell me we can expect something better.
I think there is a difference between a democratically elected representative government and a democracy full stop. From my understanding pure democracy as the early Greeks in Athens used it would allow every citizen to vote yes or no on every law or statute that is proposed by the governing body.

. The officials of the democracy were in part elected by the Assembly and in large part chosen by lottery in a process called sortition.

In the United States, we have a democratically elected Representative government or a "Republic" as it were. We democratically elect (citizens of the United States to "represent our opinions in the Senate, Congress, and Presidency.. A pure Democracy would be more cumbersome as each and every citizen 18 and over would need to educate themselves and vote yea or nay on every bill or statute proposed by the Democratically elected government officials which wouls still make it a partial "Republican" government.

I am fine with a "Republic" because a pure Athenian democracy would bee more cumbersome and harder to enforce. For example, how would we regulate police and military actions if every citizen was required to vote on every action proposed by these organizations? Not to mention how we would vote on public school, social security, welfare, and things like medical care if every citizen over 18 was required to vote on every single budgetary issue proposed by the governing body.

So in the long run I agree with a democratically elected Representative government like we have in the United States and most of the Westers World has
 
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Hvizsgyak

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Aside from the fact it's such an ugly and unpatriotic thought, it would be impractical. Nearly every state has red and blue voters, and even some people in between. Mass migration on that scale is out of the question.

Yeh, but I would rather go through massive uncomfortableness in moving to another region than civil war. And if we as a nation continue to widen that polarization that's where we'll end up.

Is Slovakia doing all that well these days? I don't mean that as a challenge, but as a real question. I had an uncle who has since reposed who lived in Partizanske and taught English to workers in their shoe factory there for many years (20+), and from what I remember of our brief communications after he moved there, it seemed like a very 'rustic' place. He even sent me pictures from a trip to Bratislava for Christmas holidays, and it looked very quaint. Not necessarily poor or anything like that (I'm not sure what counts for rich or poor there; my uncle said he lived very comfortably on the equivalent of $200 USD per month, but again this was many years ago by this point), but like it was considerably less developed than a big, internationally-known city like Prague in its sister nation.


Slovakia isn't doing too bad right now and they are slowly getting better. That's pretty amazing since they decided to split the country right down the middle. I never looked into to how they decided to make the split but it seems to be working ok. Whereas in the US, one just can't make the split right down the middle. This is where we would have to have so many scenarios and then put them to a vote. How the moves would be done (especially for poor people, elderly, homebound) would have to be planned and set up structurally. And as I said, the move would have to take up to at least five years.

Remember, alot of people are where they want to be both in the physical sense and in the cultural sense so not everybody will be making the exodus. For those that want to move, there will be some financial aid to get them to where they want to go. They will need time and help finding the area they want to settle down in, finding a house there, getting a similar job there.

Once all people are where they want to be, then a continental congress will be established to decide what type of government they want, socialist, republic, monarchy, council of elders, and so on.

The purpose of the op is to discuss how we can manage the differences we have as a people or as a country using a different system than democracy. That is, how do we, and should we, change the process. I don't think that 'let's change the country and have all the people who consider themselves to be on 'the right' over here and all those who think they are on 'the left over there' does that. In fact it suggests a total collapse of any means of reaching an agreement on managing the the problem.

Like President Obama said at one point during his campaigning for the presidency, the US Constitution needs to be updated for the present age. I can't find his suggestions right now but when I get them I'll pass them on. If I remember correctly some of them sounded pretty good. They gave hope to the less fortunate and they did not allow others to control to much power to influence the masses.
 
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Whyayeman

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Are there only two choices, totalitarianism and Democracy?
I don't mean to restrict the discussion in any way but broadly speaking, yes. Either the population has some influence about public affairs or it doesn't.

The English King, Charles I, wanted to be an autocrat and was beheaded on that principle by those who would establish Parliament as sovereign.
 
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Bradskii

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I have no words by which to cheer you up. For my part, I'm hard pressed to think of a place where "Democracy" has actually been fully implemented ...
True democracy would be a simple vote on a matter, the majority holding sway. An example of that would be Brexit (although the vote wasn't legally binding, it was accepted as the will of the people by the government).

That was an incredibly complex decision to make with countless implications that the average person in the street could not have been expected to fully comprehend. A great example, in my opinion, where democracy was quite possibly the worst means of determining an action.
 
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Occams Barber

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I don't mean to restrict the discussion in any way but broadly speaking, yes. Either the population has some influence about public affairs or it doesn't.

I think there are degrees of implementation. That is: it's possible for one country to be less or more democratic or totalitarian than another and have differing degrees of public consultation.

The US for instance is more democratic than Australia. In the US it seems that every public position, from the President to the local ratcatcher requires an elected occupant. There is also the process of selecting candidates for a particular party using the election you have before you have an election. Seen from the point of view of the Australian parliamentary system the US appears to be excessively democratic at the risk of good governance.

The other, related, issue is that democracy can become an end in itself as opposed to a means to an end. By that I mean that winning the election is seen as the most important aspect of democracy taking the focus away from the whole point of the exercise which is establishing good governance. From the outside the US appears to be in a constant state of election leaving little time between elections to get on with the bread and butter of running the country.

This can amount to acquiring power for its own sake rather than as a means of implementing policy for public good.

OB
 
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Blaise N

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‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947

I've been thinking about this for quite some time (probably a lot more since the Brexit vote). There must surely be a way to improve the way we decide the major decisions that are needed to be made. Surely it's impossible to argue that what we have now is actually the best we can expect. As Winston also said:

'The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter'.

Somebody please cheer me up and tell me we can expect something better.
Though Winston “the British bulldog” Churchill was tough as steel,a noble and brave leader,and a historical legendary figure,the worst form of government is actually Marxism/communism
 
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Occams Barber

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True democracy would be a simple vote on a matter, the majority holding sway. An example of that would be Brexit (although the vote wasn't legally binding, it was accepted as the will of the people by the government).

That was an incredibly complex decision to make with countless implications that the average person in the street could not have been expected to fully comprehend. A great example, in my opinion, where democracy was quite possibly the worst means of determining an action.
Brexit was a good example of a situation where the will of the people didn't coincide with public good.

OB
 
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Bradskii

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Brexit was a good example of a situation where the will of the people didn't coincide with public good.

OB
I completely agree. But looking at the other side of that coin, does it mean that it's acceptable for a government (or whoever is in charge - even our good friend the 'benevolent dictator') to take actions that they actually know will lead to a public good but which goes against the will of the people?

It was a close call that the UK government actually did that with Brexit. They didn't have to listen to the people because the vote wasn't binding. And they could have reasonably said 'Look, this situation is a lot more complex than has been explained to you and you have made the wrong choice. So we're going to ignore what you said because, to put it bluntly, we know better than you do'.

In this case, with hindsight, that would have been the better course to take.
 
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