Same-sex marriage grounds for firing Catholic school’s guidance counselor, appeals court says

[Lukaris]

This is already a secular country and it always was. I never wanted anything to do with a Catholic school and still don't. I find the idea the "secularists" want to infiltrate your religious institutions to destroy them from with in to be rather odd. It seems like a waste of time to try to infiltrate such places.

Formal infiltration is an absurdity but exploitable opportunities are another matter. This is cultural warfare and I believe the old American concept of religious rights is being eroded.

As far as what America was precisely at it’s founding I don’t know. I do know my maternal colonial ancestors from Connecticut were in armed conflict with Pennsylvania militias on the eve of the American Revolution ( & resumed afterwards).

Pennamite–Yankee War - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Connecticut Charter of 1662, which was had religious provisions, remained in effect until 1818. The Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776 had an outright religious provision for state legislators ( from section 10 of the framework of Pa. State government):





And each member, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:

I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.

And no further or other religious test shall ever hereafter be required of any civil officer or magistrate in this State.

The Avalon Project : Constitution of Pennsylvania - September 28, 1776

The Pennsylvania Constitution was in it’s original form until 1790. Connecticut’s charter was in it’s original form for as long as the Articles of Confederation was in effect.


The revised 1790 Pa. Constitution removed any religious requirement but affirmed religious freedom in Article 9 section 3:


the rights of conscience, &c.
Sect. III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences; that no man can, of right, be compelled to attend, erect, or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent; that no human authority can, in any case whatever, controul or interfere with the rights of conscience; and that no preference shall ever be given, by law, to any religious establishments or modes of worship.

Of a disqualification on account of religion.
Sect. IV. That no person, who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments, shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this commonwealth.

Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania - 1790

WE, the People of the Commonwealth of PENNSYLVANIA, ordain and establish this CONSTITUTION for its Government. ARTICLE I Of the legislative power. Section I. The legislative power of this...

www.constitutionpartypa.com

I would say the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution is for a secular nation with an emphasis on religious minded citizens and not an abridgment of their rights.

 

[BPPLEE]

Why must it be a religious belief?


Maybe, maybe not. I'm a pretty fun guy.

We will leave that for another discussion.

Because freedom of religion is a constitutional right we are afforded in this country.

 

[BPPLEE]

So here on a web site where non-believers are repeatedly on the receiving end of generalizations from those who self-identify as Christians about what non-believers do I can't respond in the general to an unsupported generalization claiming that "secularists" want to infiltrate church institutions to bring them down from the inside? This is something I've never heard any non-believer claim to want to do. Perhaps if the poster I was responding to has a specific example they could share that, but instead I get other posters challenging my right to stand up for other like me as "not their spokesman".

It is not non believers in general it’s certain radical advocates of the LGBTQ movement. There was one at a Church I attended. After she found out she was welcomed there she started stealing the communion crackers, she said to “Feed the hungry “

 

[BPPLEE]

Quote them please.

 

[Belk]

Because freedom of religion is a constitutional right we are afforded in this country.

I see. Let me paraphrase to ensure I have your position correct.


If you believe as a matter of religion that something is wrong you should be able to not hire based on that belief.
If you have a belief based on anything other then religion not hiring would be wrong.

Have a stated your position correctly? If not can you detail where I am incorrect?

 

[Belk]

Yeah no. That does not support your statement.

 

[HARK!]

So here on a web site where non-believers are repeatedly on the receiving end of generalizations from those who self-identify as Christians about what non-believers do

So you claim.

I can't respond in the general to an unsupported generalization claiming that "secularists" want to infiltrate church institutions to bring them down from the inside?

Let's review.

Here is what you said:

We don't want to have anything to do with the Pope's church.

I then asked you to clarify who "we" are.

Who are "we?"

Your remark about non-religious people was debunked.

Non-religious people. (Especially ex-catholics.)

In addition your seeming implication that Ex-Catholics are non-religious can easily be debunked.

So I ask again; who are "we?"

Do you have any contact information for your organization?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Formal infiltration is an absurdity but exploitable opportunities are another matter.

I'm glad you agree on infiltration.

This is cultural warfare and I believe the old American concept of religious rights is being eroded.

I don't see any "warfare". I see a culture that has changed and people that don't like how it has changed. (Some of those people talk endlessly of "culture war", but not I.)

 

[BPPLEE]

I see. Let me paraphrase to ensure I have your position correct.


If you believe as a matter of religion that something is wrong you should be able to not hire based on that belief.
If you have a belief based on anything other then religion not hiring would be wrong.

Have a stated your position correctly? If not can you detail where I am incorrect?

An atheist private school who has employees sign an agreement saying they will not openly practice a religion could fire someone under similar circumstances. Freedom of religion also means freedom not to have a religion so no, you have not summed up my position correctly

 

[Hans Blaster]

I then asked you to clarify who "we" are.

Would you have preferred that I state that we ex-Catholics don't want to have anything to do with the church that indoctrinated us without our consent. I was trying to be less universal because I don't see any evidence that any non-Christians (ex or otherwise) want to infiltrate Christian institutions to take them down from the inside. If you think there are such people a citation would be useful.

 

[HARK!]

Would you have preferred that I state that we ex-Catholics don't want to have anything to do with the church that indoctrinated us without our consent. I was trying to be less universal because I don't see any evidence that any non-Christians (ex or otherwise) want to infiltrate Christian institutions to take them down from the inside. If you think there are such people a citation would be useful.

In what alternate universe is a homosexual guidance counselor qualified to counsel Catholic children to abstain from homosexuality?

That's like going to a drug pusher for advice to kick a drug habit.

What possible motive might a homosexual have for holding such a position?

 

[Hans Blaster]

It is not non believers in general it’s certain radical advocates of the LGBTQ movement. There was one at a Church I attended. After she found out she was welcomed there she started stealing the communion crackers, she said to “Feed the hungry “

OK then, but not really relevant to the statement I responded to. (Plus I would have thought calling the Eucharist "crackers" would be blasphemous. The only times I recall hearing such a nomenclature was from persons who were definitely deliberately trying to tweak Christians. It's also the reason I never use the term.)

 

[Hans Blaster]

In what alternate universe is a homosexual guidance counselor qualified to counsel Catholic children to abstain from homosexuality?

That's like going to a drug pusher for advice to kick a drug habit.

What possible motive might a homosexual have for holding such a position?

It sounds like the position of guidance counselor at a Catholic school requires a Catholic in good standing to fill. Perhaps they should put that in the job requirements beforehand.

 

[BPPLEE]

OK then, but not really relevant to the statement I responded to. (Plus I would have thought calling the Eucharist "crackers" would be blasphemous. The only times I recall hearing such a nomenclature was from persons who were definitely deliberately trying to tweak Christians. It's also the reason I never use the term.)

Protestants don’t have the same beliefs about the Eucharist as Catholics do. Bread and wine are symbolic to most of us. Maybe I should have called them wafers but actually they’re too small to be either wafers or crackers. But I will keep in mind that the term may be offensive to some in the future.

 

[HARK!]

It sounds like the position of guidance counselor at a Catholic school requires a Catholic in good standing to fill. Perhaps they should put that in the job requirements beforehand.

same-sex marriage violated the school’s employment contract

I noticed that you failed to answer the questions.

 

[Belk]

An atheist private school who has employees sign an agreement saying they will not openly practice a religion could fire someone under similar circumstances. Freedom of religion also means freedom not to have a religion so no, you have not summed up my position correctly

If not can you detail where I am incorrect?

 

[BPPLEE]

If not can you detail where I am incorrect?

If not can you detail where I am incorrect?

I

 

[BPPLEE]

They are free to do so. Last I checked it is illegal to base employment on religious affiliation.

A company can fire you for social media posts. If I’m posting that abortion is murder I don’t think Planned Parenthood would keep me on as a counselor

 

[Hans Blaster]

I noticed that you failed to answer the questions.

I wasn't aware your OP was a question I needed to answer.

 

[Pommer]

Should political parties be able to discriminate about who they employ? (Democrats employ a far-right person, Republicans have to hire a Trotskyite?)
Should activists' groups have the right to discriminate? (Can David Duke be able to get a job at NAAPC or SPLC)

Political speech isn’t “protected”.