What do you all think about this paper/article?

[AV1611VET]

And what does "academia" think ...

You said it yourself.

"The Bible is a book of fables."

 

[seekingHiswisdom]

As told, the flood story is fiction.

World wide, months long, highest hills, all life except on ark.

Obvious fiction, provably false.

Sigh!!! With all of the world wide accounts that mention a flood... similar to Noah's that have been researched... how do you know it is fiction?

Can you prove this?

If so, then we can rest assured that the bible is not inerrant for where there is one thing there are more.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I know you're an atheist. And I'm an existentialist. I'm also biased by reality, and I don't assume that I can know there is or isn't a God either way.

You're right, though----Epistemology does cut both ways. but it can't be said that I'm not reaffirming anything because you apparently don't know the first thing about "my" position, Ibanezer.

I'm pretty good about smacking down confirmation bias when it rears its ugly head........................wherever I find it.

lol okay.

 

[Hans Blaster]

es2

Why should the Biblical account be considered anything but accurate?

It's an ancient text filled with mythological language. There are many others like it and none are the same. Even before we understood geology we could see the issues in the Noah story. Now we can see it is literally not true.

For example, the ark in the Gilgamess account is supposedly square.

I thought it was a round kurgan made of reeds and bitumen.

It would be useless in anything but a calm pond.

As would any wooden boat built to the dimensions "biblical scholars" extract from those few chapters of Genesis. In an actual sea with swells it would snap like a twig.

Other cultures have accounts of a flood, but they add obviously mythical details.

As does the Jewish/Mesopotamian culture to their flood story. Not all cultures have a flood story and the Mesopotamian culture is also what I would call an "other culture" as it is not my culture.

 

[Astrid]

Sigh!!! With all of the world wide accounts that mention a flood... similar to Noah's that have been researched... how do you know it is fiction?

Can you prove this?

If so, then we can rest assured that the bible is not inerrant for where there is one thing there are more.

"Sigh" is it?

I'm willing to walk you through it.

I'd like to know, if you don't mind a few things of you
first.
There are So many different Christian versions of
what happened, from "nothing, its allegory/metaphor/
parable" to a year of world wide flood covering
every highest mountain.

So what is it you are asking me to disprove?
Some detail would help.

On the 200 or 400 or whatever number is quoted,
flood stories: ( it's always a round number)

Where do you get this info?
Did you read any of them?

There are tales from perhaps every culture of
supernatural " little people" as well as abundant mermaids,
dragons, and many other things that only the rather
backward and ignorant still believe. Is this not so?

And do not these tales say something about human
nature, ratther than about real mermaids etc?

So anyway plz describe flood.

And. Perhaps say if learning there was no flood would
destroy your faith.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And. Perhaps say if learning there was no flood would
destroy your faith.

No, learning there was no flood does not predispose me from attempting to take the bible "seriously" in some way.

However, if I were to learn that Moses and the Exodus never happened in any way, shape or form, that might lend itself to my letting go of the biblical faith ...

 

[AV1611VET]

No, learning there was no flood does not predispose me from attempting to take the bible "seriously" in some way.

I assume that, by "no flood," you are talking about no global flood ... right?

 

[Hans Blaster]

However, if I were to learn that Moses and the Exodus never happened in any way, shape or form, that might lend itself to my letting go of the biblical faith ...

This is really going to depend on how strong your limit is on this...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I assume that, by "no flood," you are talking about no global flood ... right?

That is correct. I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve, and similarly, I don't need to believe in a literal "global" flood to deem the Bible as worth my time.

Apparently, some people do think it all has to be ultra-literal or that it's somehow not worth the time.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is really going to depend on how strong your limit is on this...

Right. I agree. And that limit will be contingent upon the way in which I conceptualize the nature of evidence and historical (and scientific) praxis.

So yeah, each one of us will have differences as to our individual, subjective limits on this ...

 

[AV1611VET]

Apparently, some people do think it all has to be ultra-literal or that it's somehow not worth the time.

The more literal the Bible is, the harder It is for science to deal with It.

Put another way, the more literal the Bible is, the more It stands apart from science.

Thus effectually making It immune to scientific scrutiny.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The more literal the Bible is, the harder It is for science to deal with It.

Put another way, the more literal the Bible is, the more It stands apart from science.

Thus effectually making It immune to scientific scrutiny.

I would put it another way, one that removes the problem of whether the bible is literal or representational, either way.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

lol okay.

Yeah, it is funny when I write one too many "nots" in my statements and end up saying the opposite of what I intended ...

 

[AV1611VET]

I would put it another way, one that removes the problem of whether the bible is literal or representational, either way.

But from a literal standpoint, science can't touch It.

 

[Astrid]

No need to put "atheist" in quotes. I actually am an atheist. And yeah, I am biased by reality. But I was just pointing out that making the accusation of bias cuts both ways. You've just reaffirmed that.

Well said.

 

[dlamberth]

But from a literal standpoint, science can't touch It.

The reverse is true as well. That is from a literal standpoint, the Bible can't touch science.

 

[seekingHiswisdom]

"Sigh" is it?

I'm willing to walk you through it.

I'd like to know, if you don't mind a few things of you
first.
There are So many different Christian versions of
what happened, from "nothing, its allegory/metaphor/
parable" to a year of world wide flood covering
every highest mountain.

So what is it you are asking me to disprove?
Some detail would help.

On the 200 or 400 or whatever number is quoted,
flood stories: ( it's always a round number)

Where do you get this info?
Did you read any of them?

There are tales from perhaps every culture of
supernatural " little people" as well as abundant mermaids,
dragons, and many other things that only the rather
backward and ignorant still believe. Is this not so?

And do not these tales say something about human
nature, ratther than about real mermaids etc?

So anyway plz describe flood.

And. Perhaps say if learning there was no flood would
destroy your faith.

No, saying there was no flood would not destroy my faith.... in all things God and His Holy Word... it would, however fortify in my mind the fallacies of most things scientific.

As to the number of stories that come from around the world.... there are a enough told from various regions and cultures handed down through their generations to be given serious consideration...

But, knowing that it is entirely possible that all things that others know or or account for could well have been
from travelers from afar talking of a localized flood, while believing it to be world wide that people can easily be influenced by what they hear.

Or it is possible.... where I come down that a global flood happened. (Of course if you are a flat earther it does not work cause the water would simply have flowed off the edge )

We have the quasi-wisdom of Anthropologists who will tell you that a myth is often the faded memory of a real event. Details may have been added, lost, or obscured in the telling and retelling, but the kernel of truth remains. When two separate cultures have the same "myth" in their body of folklore, their ancestors must have either experienced the same event, or they both descended from a common ancestral source which itself experienced the event. This would fall inline with the travllers from afar as far as I am concerned....

But while the most similar accounts are typically from middle eastern cultures, there are surprisingly similar legends are found in South America and the Pacific Islands and elsewhere... each being meaningful meaningful to their own culture.

BUT LETS LEAVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE MIX FOR HEAVEN KNOWS PEOPLE ARE QUITE NOTEABLE FOR GETTING THINGS ALL WRONG.... OR AT LEAST MIXED UP .

I find the most compelling of things are the geological evidences .. world wide.

We read in Genesis 7 and 8 that “the fountains of the great deep” were broken up and poured out water from inside the earth for 150 days (5 months).

Gen 7: NASB95 The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.

Plus it rained torrentially and globally for 40 days and nights (“the floodgates [or windows of heaven] were opened”). No wonder all the high hills and the mountains were covered, meaning the earth was covered by a global ocean ...“the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished!” (2PETER 3:6 SAYS IT SUSCINTLY 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.)8

But God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark; and God caused a wind to pass over the earth, and the water subsided. 2 Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained; 3 and the water receded steadily from the earth, and at the end of one hundred and fifty days the water decreased. 4 In the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible. . All air-breathing life on the land was swept away and perished.

Yes, I understand not all will believe this account. It takes a little faith... perhaps like a Mustard Seed.. to know that this was easily accomplished by one who was able to have a soul saving crucifixion and resurrection take place.

So lets look at some evidence..... concentrating on things we can easily verify within the USA, for those of us who live here.

How about fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents.

They have found fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover ALL the continents. Especially in most of the rock layers that cover the walls of the the Grand Canyon (more then a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. And fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.

We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils.

Billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand).

The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.

We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly.

The Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England.

The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia.

Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.

We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water.

The sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada.

How about no erosion, between rock layers.

Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion.

Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.

, Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening.

The Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, NOT over “480 million years,” that science would have you believe but while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.

Jesus Christ our Creator (John 1:1–3; Colossians 1:16–17), who is the Truth and would never tell us a lie, said that during the “days of Noah” (Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26–27) “Noah entered the Ark” and “the Flood came and took them all away” (Matthew 24:38–39). He spoke of these events as real, literal history, describing a global Flood that destroyed all land life not on the Ark.

I could go on, but will toss this back to you... for now.

​

 

[Astrid]

No, saying there was no flood would not destroy my faith.... in all things God and His Holy Word... it would, however fortify in my mind the fallacies of most things scientific.

As to the number of stories that come from around the world.... there are a enough told from various regions and cultures handed down through their generations to be given serious consideration...

But, knowing that it is entirely possible that all things that others know or or account for could well have been
from travelers from afar talking of a localized flood, while believing it to be world wide that people can easily be influenced by what they hear.

Or it is possible.... where I come down that a global flood happened. (Of course if you are a flat earther it does not work cause the water would simply have flowed off the edge )

We have the quasi-wisdom of Anthropologists who will tell you that a myth is often the faded memory of a real event. Details may have been added, lost, or obscured in the telling and retelling, but the kernel of truth remains. When two separate cultures have the same "myth" in their body of folklore, their ancestors must have either experienced the same event, or they both descended from a common ancestral source which itself experienced the event. This would fall inline with the travllers from afar as far as I am concerned....

But while the most similar accounts are typically from middle eastern cultures, there are surprisingly similar legends are found in South America and the Pacific Islands and elsewhere... each being meaningful meaningful to their own culture.

BUT LETS LEAVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE MIX FOR HEAVEN KNOWS PEOPLE ARE QUITE NOTEABLE FOR GETTING THINGS ALL WRONG.... OR AT LEAST MIXED UP .

I find the most compelling of things are the geological evidences .. world wide.

We read in Genesis 7 and 8 that “the fountains of the great deep” were broken up and poured out water from inside the earth for 150 days (5 months).

Gen 7: NASB95 The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.

Plus it rained torrentially and globally for 40 days and nights (“the floodgates [or windows of heaven] were opened”). No wonder all the high hills and the mountains were covered, meaning the earth was covered by a global ocean ...“the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished!” (2PETER 3:6 SAYS IT SUSCINTLY 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.)8

But God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark; and God caused a wind to pass over the earth, and the water subsided. 2 Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained; 3 and the water receded steadily from the earth, and at the end of one hundred and fifty days the water decreased. 4 In the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible. . All air-breathing life on the land was swept away and perished.

Yes, I understand not all will believe this account. It takes a little faith... perhaps like a Mustard Seed.. to know that this was easily accomplished by one who was able to have a soul saving crucifixion and resurrection take place.

So lets look at some evidence..... concentrating on things we can easily verify within the USA, for those of us who live here.

How about fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents.

They have found fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover ALL the continents. Especially in most of the rock layers that cover the walls of the the Grand Canyon (more then a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. And fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.

We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils.

Billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand).

The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.

We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly.

The Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England.

The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia.

Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.

We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water.

The sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada.

How about no erosion, between rock layers.

Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion.

Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.

, Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening.

The Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, NOT over “480 million years,” that science would have you believe but while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.

Jesus Christ our Creator (John 1:1–3; Colossians 1:16–17), who is the Truth and would never tell us a lie, said that during the “days of Noah” (Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26–27) “Noah entered the Ark” and “the Flood came and took them all away” (Matthew 24:38–39). He spoke of these events as real, literal history, describing a global Flood that destroyed all land life not on the Ark.

I could go on, but will toss this back to you... for now.

​

No. Actually I said "leaned there was no flood"
not if you heard someone saying it.

There is a huge difference.
You might consider the possible wider
significance of your nissing that. And
try to answer the actual,q.


As for geology, did you ever take a geology
course? I kind of grew up with geology, geologists.
Half of my double major was geology.


What you posted is of course taken from a creationist site,
and is a bit of a Gish. Or what in law we'd call a document
dump.
So please dont do that.

I won't try to address a gish, though all are
fallacious / misleading. Not blaming you, it's
not your work. Plz include xour e of cut n paste in
the future.


But just one...your "no erosion".

In geology we call this ( link below) an angular unconformity.

Strata laid down flat. As always. Later, tipped to an angle as plainly shown in the bottom of photo.

This is then eroded to a level plain, overwhich
new layers are again deposited, flat and parallel.

Such formations are common. I've certainly seen them
on field trips.

Google Image Result for https://uwaterloo.ca/wat-on-earth/sites/ca.wat-on-earth/files/resize/uploads/images/Fig%202%2C%20Barry-500x325.jpg

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But from a literal standpoint, science can't touch It.

Science can't really touch it from a representative standpoint either. Science's ability to "touch" the bible depends not upon whether or not it's literal or generic ancient history.........................but upon whether or not it actually is Prophetic in nature.

If it is prophetic, even if it's ensconced in ancient ways of writing (historiographically speaking), then science can't pin it down because "The Ghost is somewhere in the Machine."

 

[AV1611VET]

But from a literal standpoint, science can't touch It.

The reverse is true as well. That is from a literal standpoint, the Bible can't touch science.

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.