When two worldviews collide.

[trophy33]

But what it doesn't have (to the same extent as other countries), is the problem of gender inequality.

Which says nothing. Because the equality is supposed to solve the problems of the society, not just be, while everything else (from health to safety) gets worse.
Again, we need to have a systemic approach, not just focus on one thing. "Is the society generally better off?" is the key question. Having 50:50 men:women management in companies is not saying they are feeling good or bad.

When you read Genesis 3:16, God is telling Eve the consequences of the fall; suffering in childbearing, and so forth; and her husband ruling over her is part of that new, fallen, reality. At no point before that in the narrative is this the way of things.

Not sure if I understand what you mean. In the story, it was God who said that husband will rule over her, it was not Adam. So you accept its God's order in our fallen world?

Also the apostles position men as the head of their households, so its also a Christian order, not just something "in the fallen world".

 

[Paidiske]

Which says nothing. Because the equality is supposed to solve the problems of the society, not just be, while everything else (from health to safety) gets worse.

Inequality is in itself a problem. It means lack of opportunity, and lack of agency, and lack of dignity, and suffering, because of one's sex. That is a gross injustice.

Not sure if I understand what you mean. In the story, it was God who said that husband will rule over her, it was not Adam. So you accept its God's order in our fallen world?

God was describing what would happen; the warped relationships which would result from human sinfulness. God was not saying this is how it should be, or how God wills it to be.

Also the apostles position men as the head of his household.

The apostles acknowledge that this is the social position men had. And then urged those men to love like Christ, setting aside social power and dominance, and serving in love.

 

[trophy33]

The apostles acknowledge that this is the social position men had. And then urged those men to love like Christ, setting aside social power and dominance, and serving in love.

"Acknowledge" is certainly not a right word for clear commands.

 

[trophy33]

Inequality is in itself a problem.

No, it always depends on the context. For example, children or women do not have go to wars. Its inequality, but the patriarchy inherently protects the weaker ones.

So we would need to go specifically step by step which inequality can be solved for the good of the society and which would actually break the stability of society.

Throwing away the only stable system the society came with through centuries/thousands of years and wildly experiment with new ideologies leads to problems we all witness.

 

[Paidiske]

"Acknowledge" is certainly not a right word for clear commands.

And I am making a distinction between what the apostles recognised as their social reality, and what they commanded. They did not command dominance; quite to the contrary.

 

[trophy33]

They did not command dominance; quite to the contrary.

Not sure what you mean by dominance.

They commanded wives to submit and husbands to protect them.

 

[Paidiske]

No, it always depends on the context.

More specifically, inequality between men and women, of opportunity, of social participation, of agency, is in itself a problem.

For examples, children or women do not have go to wars. Its inequality, but the patriarchy protects the weaker.

Well, warfare is itself an evil, so I don't think it's a very good example.

So we would need to go specifically step by step which inequality can be solved for the good of the society and which would actually break the stability of society.

Stability built on injustice is still injustice.

Throwing away the only stable system the society came with through centuries/thousands of years and wildly experiment with new ideologies leads to problems we all witness.

Society really wasn't all that stable before... problems and changes have always been with us.

 

[Paidiske]

They commanded wives to submit...

Actually, they urged mutual submission.

 

[trophy33]

More specifically, inequality between men and women, of opportunity, of social participation, of agency, is in itself a problem.

Again, depends on the context. For example if you want to protect some group regarding responsibilities and in the same time grant the group equal opportunities, its injustice.

Well, warfare is itself an evil, so I don't think it's a very good example.

No, warfare itself is not evil. How else would you defend your country, your family?

Stability built on injustice is still injustice.

Depends on the context.

Society really wasn't all that stable before... problems and changes have always been with us.

Stable enough to survive various cataclysms, famines, wars etc. Whenever it was needed, societies naturally always formed what you would perceived as patriarchy, to solve imminent problems effectively.

 

[trophy33]

Actually, they urged mutual submission.

In the church, not in households.

 

[Paidiske]

Again, depends on the context. For example if you want to protect some group regarding responsibilities and in the same time grant the group equal opportunities, its injustice.

Specific example please?

No, warfare itself is not evil.

Of course it is. Mass killing and destruction is completely evil. It's why the eschatological vision includes things like beating swords into ploughshares. War is perhaps the ultimate, mass-scale expression of human sinfulness.

Stable enough to survive various cataclysms, famines, wars etc. Whenever it was needed, societies naturally always formed what you would perceived as patriarchy, to solve imminent problems effectively.

That's a broad, sweeping generalisation, with which I don't agree.

In the church, not in households.

That distinction is not in the text. "Be subject to one another" is followed immediately by expanding on what that means for husbands and wives.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Skyrocketing homicide rate from 0.3 to 1.37 in last ten years:

Iceland: murder rate 2022| Statista

The murder rate in Iceland fluctuated between 2010 and 2022, and peaked in 2020.

www.statista.com

Iceland has a population under 400,000 people. This is the homicide rate going from 1 murder *total* per year to 5 per year for the whole country. It seems that in 2020 the actual murder count was 5 murders (a shockingly high number for a country with less than 40 in the prior 20 years). Do we need to teach you about small number statistics?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In the church, not in households.

...........hhhhhmmmmm, sometimes Christian husbands are somewhat dim-witted, especially where relational and sexual issues are concerned.

So, when the wife says to her husband, "Don't listen to Hugh Hefner or Mr. Bossy Boss and his ilk or be playing with that Tinder app," Christian wives should be able to hear the husband comply with a gentle, "ok, Honey. You're right!," and then follow through with that verbal compliance.

Let's not pretend that Christian men have it all together these days, because typically they don't. So, we should see many cases where even Christian husbands encounter the need to submit to wives, at least sometimes ............................................................................... (Ephesians 5)

 

[trophy33]

Iceland has a population under 400,000 people. This is the homicide rate going from 1 murder *total* per year to 5 per year for the whole country. It seems that in 2020 the actual murder count was 5 murders (a shockingly high number for a country with less than 40 in the prior 20 years). Do we need to teach you about small number statistics?

Not sure what is your point. The actual number does not matter, the rate/trend matters.

And please stop talking like you are some kind of my teacher.

 

[trophy33]

Let's not pretend that Christian men have it all together these days, because typically they don't. So, we should see many cases where even Christian husbands encounter the need to submit to wives, at least sometimes

Listening to a good advice is not submitting, IMO. Its actually a necessary part of healthy leadership.

For example, a parent can learn how to use some useful mobile app (e.g. GPS navigation) from his kid. It does not mean he is submitting to the kid.

Generally, I think almost nobody has it "all together" these days. The western society seems to be quite broken and conflicted on many levels. Millenials did not have healthy families (mostly) and now they are in the age of creating their own families. And they do not know how. The focus of society is on LGBT and similar issues, but not on the silent majority that seems to be sincerely lost in life.

 

[rjs330]

Here's the thing: people who do all those things know - in a bone-deep, gut-deep way that perhaps none of the rest of us know, since we don't live with the physical toll of it - that they can only approximate the biology of the other sex; and that they do so, not so that they "become" the other sex, but so that their bodies are more congruent with their own sense of identity.

Do they know that bone deep? Or is their illness such that they believe they are becoming they becoming the opposite sex? This illness says they are the opposite sex. They believe they are really are a biological man or a woman. That's what they are changing their body to match what they believe they are. That's why they want to be in biological women's spaces. That's why they want to be in women's prisons, sports, locker rooms and showers. That's what they want to be called the pronouns reserved for the opposite biological sex. That's why they want to change the biological sex on their birth certificates. That's why they say men can give birth. They may understand that they cannot alter their chromosomes. But they don't believe that matters. That's why there are claims are chromosomes are not the determining factors of sex and why some are trying so hard to erase sex.

That's why they are so offended when called sir instead of ma'am which is a reference to biological sex. A woman is reserved for adult human female not for men who believe they are a woman.

I get they have am identity. No one is denying that. It's that their identity is not based on reality.

What is a trans woman identifying as?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Listening to a good advice is not submitting, IMO. Its actually a necessary part of healthy leadership.

For example, a parent can learn how to use some useful mobile app (e.g. GPS navigation) from his kid. It does not mean he is submitting to the kid.

Generally, I think almost nobody has it "all together" these days. The western society seems to be quite broken and conflicted on many levels. Millenials did not have healthy families (mostly) and now they are in the age of creating their own families. And they do not know how. The focus of society is on LGBT and similar issues, but not on the silent majority that seems to be sincerely lost in life.

As to your example, you're right of course. BUT, I wasn't referring to "advice" given by a wife. I was referrring to admonition and ultimatum, which a Christian wife should push if a supposed Christian husband becomes sinfully beknighted. ... and thereby, he should submit to what the Holy Spirit is commanding him through the wife.

On another note, philosophically speaking, I personally think anyone's authority is attentuated to the level of faithfulness to God that one actually has. So, if a husband isn't faithful, then neither does he "still" have an authority over his wife. I know----what I'm saying is a hard pill to swallow for the really hard-core fundamental type Christian mindset. But I figure that if the Lord is really leading them, they'll get over that hurdle anyway and swallow the pill.

We have millions of "christian" men running around thinking they still have any shred of authority over their wives, all the while those same men by way of their hidden (or revealed) sins, have already alleviated them of the authority they thought they had.

 

[trophy33]

As to your example, you're right of course. BUT, I wasn't referring to "advice" given by a wife. I was referrring to admonition and ultimatum, which a Christian wife should push if a supposed Christian husband becomes sinfully beknighted. ... and thereby, he should submit to what the Holy Spirit is commanding him through the wife.

And what would the ultimatum be? Divorce?

 

[rjs330]

The vast majority of people (both men and women) work because they have to. Such statistics have nothing to do with happiness or preference.

For example, in Switzerland or Germany its much more common for women to stop working after they have children and to be stay-at-home mothers. But the salaries there allow for that, not so much in the Czech republic, so low to middle-class women must work more, there.

Right. Not because they want to but because they have to. The feminist way says women work and don't raise their kids because that's what they want. They prefer a career to being a mother.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And what would the ultimatum be? Divorce?

Sure!!! If a Christian wife has a husband who, despite his lipservice to Christ, is a philanderer, then he should think twice when his wife commands him to stop his escapades. The sad thing will be when those same men turn around with audacity and think to re-command their own faithful wives to just accept the circumstance ...

In such an instance, she would have the right to divorce his philandering bootay!