Contradiction: Omnipotent, Omniscient, Predestination, Determinism vs Freewill

[tonychanyt]

I suspect the line of thinking you are encountering is that each of the etc. etc. etc. items may be considered to each and in totality contribute <100% to the choice, whereas God being Omni-etc. by that nature must contribute 100%.


Did you stop reading after the quoted portion?

I usually stop reading when I have trouble understanding the writing any further.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I suspect the line of thinking you are encountering is that each of the etc. etc. etc. items may be considered to each and in totality contribute <100% to the choice, whereas God being Omni-etc. by that nature must contribute 100%.

Huh? Sorry. I don't follow. Could you state that differently, or explain it?

 

[John Mullally]

If you think there is a contradiction, please present the two propositions that contradict.

Step 1: Please clearly state the two contradictory propositions and nothing else.

Fill in the blanks.

Proposition 1 = ________.

Proposition 2 = ________.

Preposition 1 = Determinism
Proposition 2 = Free Will

Calvinistic Determinism: Calvin states that God pre-determines our thoughts and decisions.

​

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

​

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

​

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

Man's free free-will: Set within the context of Cain, according to Genesis chapter 4, God asked why he was angry, warning and encouraging him of potential dangers that he must get under control so that things will go well with him.

Genesis 4:6-8: “Then the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.’ Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.”​

​

The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner. He should be able to control the murderous motives that he felt inside. The fact that God warned Cain what would happen if he failed to control himself shows that God believed that Cain possessed the power of contrary choice, that is, Cain did not have to murder Able, even though that is exactly what he eventually did.

​

 

[tonychanyt]

Preposition 1 = Determinism
Proposition 2 = Free Will

These are not propositions.

 

[John Mullally]

These are not propositions.

You personally directed me to this thread from another thread that you also started. As the OP on that other thread you did not provide a meaningful response to my lengthy reply - other than curtly directing me here. In the title of this thread you included contrasting "Determinism vs Free Will", so I used those as my two separate propositions per your request and provided a lengthy meaningful response that again you ignored. Instead you ignorantly and curtly rebuked me by saying those were not your "Propositions" even though you literally included "Determinism vs Free Will" in this thread's title. That response shows you are not looking for honest open exchanges, but have an axe to grind and based upon your title deals with making arguments to support Calvinism. I tried to abide by your OP, but after being ignorantly and rudely treated I decided to construct my own propositions that gets down to the real argument. I don't care if Calvin, his ilk, or Satan don't like it.

Proposition 1 = Calvinist Appeals
Proposition 2 = Ca;vinist Problems

The Five Points of Calvinistic Appeals

Calvinism is made alluring by its advocates in the following 5 points.

1. Church History: It’s the theology that gave us the Protestant Reformation. Those who oppose Calvinism represent a threat to return back to Rome under Roman Catholicism.​

​

2. Scholarship: The best and brightest Christian scholars were Calvinists who produced things like “Cannons of Dort” and “The Westminster Confession of Faith,” and which includes godly men like Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Owen, John Gill, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Hodge, Charles Spurgeon, B.B. Warfield, Loraine, Boettner, ect.​

​

3. Compare and Contrast: Compare with modern godly men like D. James Kennedy, J.I. Packer, R.C. Sproul, Erwin Lutzer, John McArthur, Phil Johnson, James White, John Piper, ect. Outside of Calvinism, the church is relatively weak in theology.​

​

4. Systematic: You can become an instant scholar with an easy systematic theology. I was “dead” and in need of a resurrection (T-Total Depravity), in which God eternally chose me (U-Unconditional Election) to have Christ die on the Cross to provide me with an atonement (L-Limited Atonement), with a grace that makes me willing to irresistibly accept the gospel (I-Irresistible Grace) and ensures that I persevere in the faith (P-Perseverance of the Saints). You are special. You are chosen. God wanted you. God didn’t leave you to your own choices. Never at any time were you in danger of hellfire. God’s election protected you from that.​

​

5. Peer Pressure: If you don’t accept these “Doctrines of Grace” then you don’t truly believe that God is “sovereign” or that He is in control. You are resisting the Word of God! You commit heresy by turning faith into a work, in which you think your “free will” saved you.​

The Five Points of Calvinistic Problems

Calvinism is undone with the reality of these 5 points.

1. Church History: Augustine (354-430) was a Gnostic convert, who after converting to Catholicism, sometime after rediscovered a hearty determinism in Scripture. John Chrysostom (347-407) informs us that the Gnostics frequently quoted John 6 and Romans 9 in their opposition to free will. Calvinists frequently quote the same texts to disprove free will. By contrast, the early Church supported free will, in opposition to the Gnostics. Augustine was unable to name anyone within the early Church sharing his belief in determinism, but it’s not because it wasn’t being taught. It was. It was taught by the Gnostics. Rather than Calvinism protecting the Protestant Reformation, it actually protects Semi-Gnosticism.​

​

2. Scholarship: There are plenty of historical non-Calvinistic Christian scholars, both from the early Church and also in our modern era such as Balthasar Hubmaier, Jacob Arminius, John Wesley, John Goodwin (Puritan), Richard Watson, Daniel Whedon, A.W. Tozer, C.S. Lewis, ect.​

​

3. Compare and Contrast: Compare with modern godly men such as Billy Graham, Dave Hunt, Adrian Rogers, Thomas Oden, I. Howard Marshall, William Lane Craig, Ben Witherington III, Roger Olson, ect.​

4. Systematic: The Calvinist systematic is missing from the New Testament, such as any mention of an Irresistible Grace as the solution for the unsaved to be able to receive the gospel. Jesus never said that God had to first give people spiritual life in order to be able to come to Him, but rather that people must come to Him to obtain “life.” (John 5:40) Jesus and His apostles declared things no Calvinist would ever say, such as God having so loved the “world” that He gave it a Savior, Jesus (John 3:16, 1 Timothy 4:10), who tasted death for “everyone” (Hebrews 2:9), who for His part desires “all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4), “not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) If Calvinism was true, then the Bible-writers would have been careless in their words, or intentionally trying to deceive—something no Christian would accept as true.​

​

5. Peer Pressure: No matter how hot the fire that Calvinist leaders breath, in calling it’s theological opponents “heretics,” insisting that “Calvinism is the gospel,” Christians don’t have to succumb to peer pressure from loud, aggressive, dogmatic Calvinist leaders. Our authority comes from the Bible alone—not their synods, creeds and confessions.​

 

[Mark Quayle]

Preposition 1 = Determinism
Proposition 2 = Free Will

Calvinistic Determinism: Calvin states that God pre-determines our thoughts and decisions.

​

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

​

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

​

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

Man's free free-will: Set within the context of Cain, according to Genesis chapter 4, God asked why he was angry, warning and encouraging him of potential dangers that he must get under control so that things will go well with him.

Genesis 4:6-8: “Then the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.’ Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.”​

​

The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner. He should be able to control the murderous motives that he felt inside. The fact that God warned Cain what would happen if he failed to control himself shows that God believed that Cain possessed the power of contrary choice, that is, Cain did not have to murder Able, even though that is exactly what he eventually did.

​

"...the way in which God felt that he should."? God wasn't sure but he felt that was the right way? The fact that God acts persuasively, and reasons with people proves free will? If it does, then free will is not independent of God's causation.

 

[John Mullally]

"...the way in which God felt that he should."? God wasn't sure but he felt that was the right way? The fact that God acts persuasively, and reasons with people proves free will? If it does, then free will is not independent of God's causation.

The "he should" in the "... the way in which God felt that he should" is talking about Cain's actions which God does not control per "free will". Your "God's causation" argument leads to God determining everyone's action - which if true makes God's interaction with Cain a sham and which makes God responsible for all humanities action - including sin. Yet from scripture God holds other's responsible for the sin they commit . Can you address this apparent disconnect which per Calvin (and yourself) has God decreeing man's every actions without being accountable for such? Caution: Expect me to redress any of your arguments.

 

[tonychanyt]

You personally directed me to this thread from another thread that you also started.

Do you know what a proposition is?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The "he should" in the "... the way in which God felt that he should" is talking about Cain's actions which God does not control per "free will". Your "God's causation" argument leads to God determining everyone's action - which if true makes God's interaction with Cain a sham and which makes God responsible for all humanities action - including sin. Yet from scripture God holds other's responsible for the sin they commit . Can you address this apparent disconnect which per Calvin (and yourself) has God decreeing man's every actions without being accountable for such? Caution: Expect me to redress any of your arguments.

My point was not that "he should" was Cain nor God. My point was that God is not the kind to 'feel that' something should happen. God knows. He's never unsure.

And your logic that God determining absolutely everything 'whatsoever comes to pass' makes "makes God's interaction with Cain a sham" is vapid.

And yes, God is 'responsible' for all of humanity's actions, to include sin, but not responsible in the sense that he sinned, nor that he even tempted anyone. THEY are 'responsible' for their own decisions.

(Caution: The word, "redress" is literally what you do —you take something from what is meant, to claim it means something else. You dress it in different clothing.)

Your worldview, "self-determinism", puts you (in your mind) at God's level. You think it is absolutely logical that if God does something, that man does not. You are wrong. God does cause, through man choosing, what God has in mind concerning that man. It is not just compatibilism, but causation: God determined, Man chooses, and God accomplishes.

Self-determinism makes man a 'little god', even a little 'first cause'. That is logically self-contradictory. There can be only one 'first cause', and only one true God. Your construction of man's abilities, built on a foundation wall of self-determinism, lacks adequate footings in the sand. All things are caused, except First Cause.

 

[John Mullally]

Do you know what a proposition is?

Yes. Do you?

 

[tonychanyt]

Yes

In your reply, please fill in the blanks:

A proposition is ___.

 

[John Mullally]

My point was not that "he should" was Cain nor God. My point was that God is not the kind to 'feel that' something should happen. God knows. He's never unsure.

Wrong. Saying "God felt that Cain should" does not mean that God was unsure.

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:​

And your logic that God determining absolutely everything 'whatsoever comes to pass' makes "makes God's interaction with Cain a sham" is vapid.

If God already determined what Cain would do, as Calvin asserts, then there is no point in interacting with Cain. And God does not waste his time or mislead us in His word.

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

And yes, God is 'responsible' for all of humanity's actions, to include sin, but not responsible in the sense that he sinned, nor that he even tempted anyone. THEY are 'responsible' for their own decisions.

(Caution: The word, "redress" is literally what you do —you take something from what is meant, to claim it means something else. You dress it in different clothing.)

If God determines our actions, He is responsible for them.

Your worldview, "self-determinism", puts you (in your mind) at God's level. You think it is absolutely logical that if God does something, that man does not. You are wrong. God does cause, through man choosing, what God has in mind concerning that man. It is not just compatibilism, but causation: God determined, Man chooses, and God accomplishes.

Self-determinism makes man a 'little god', even a little 'first cause'. That is logically self-contradictory. There can be only one 'first cause', and only one true God. Your construction of man's abilities, built on a foundation wall of self-determinism, lacks adequate footings in the sand. All things are caused, except First Cause.

It makes no sense for God to judge man when God determined our every thought and action (as you and Calvin assert). Men and angels are judged for their negative actions because they could have done otherwise - comprende? So spare me the lecture on logic, Calvin's worldview, turns all creation into "little robots" whose every thought and action was decreed by God. From someone who thinks our every thought and action was decreed by God, any assertion that men are not robots and make real free free-will decisions comes across as "self determinism" and illogical. At any time, you can stop pretending to not understand what I am saying. That would be refreshing.

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

​

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

 

[John Mullally]

In your reply, please fill in the blanks:

A proposition is ___.

You do not explain exactly what you asking for in the OP or here. Of course you want to bound the propositions - otherwise the thread makes no sense.. But you continue to do a lousy job at setting those bounds. You should go back to the drawing board as no one seems to understand what you are asking. How about examples? How about transparency and answering your own OP?

 

[tonychanyt]

You do not explain exactly what you asking for in the OP or here.

All argumentations begin with propositions. Without them, there is no formal argument. There is nothing to argue about. That's my only point in this thread.

 

[John Mullally]

All argumentations begin with propositions. Without them, there is no formal argument. There is nothing to argue about. That's my only point in this thread.

I think we all know that. As you demonstrate in your OP using certain key words and phrases are in themselves propositions. How about transparency and getting to your real point? Do as you say: What is your real formal argument? I hate guessing games. Stop wasting our time.

 

[tonychanyt]

I think we all know that.

If you know that, then present the two propositions as requested in this OP. Fill in the blanks:

Proposition P1 = ____.

Proposition P2 = ____.

 

[Kale100]

I usually stop reading when I have trouble understanding the writing any further.

Must be a pain trying to use a dictionary then. You'll never know what the unknown word means until you read past it to learn it's definition.
Also, if you wish to reply to me it must be in the form of a haiku.

 

[Kale100]

Huh? Sorry. I don't follow. Could you state that differently, or explain it?

Sure, when you say 'Most people who believe in free will, (if they even know what they mean by that), think that their choices are the result of them and their will alone, and of no other cause.'
I believe the bolded is inaccurate. Most people will concede external forces DO contribute to their choices, but no number of external forces will reduce the contribution of their will to 0%. God as an external force, being omni-potent/scient must contribute 100%.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Wrong. Saying "God felt that Cain should" does not mean that God was unsure.

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:​

If God already determined what Cain would do, as Calvin asserts, then there is no point in interacting with Cain. And God does not waste his time or mislead us in His word.

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

If God determines our actions, He is responsible for them.

It makes no sense for God to judge man when God determined our every thought and action (as you and Calvin assert). Men and angels are judged for their negative actions because they could have done otherwise - comprende? So spare me the lecture on logic, Calvin's worldview, turns all creation into "little robots" whose every thought and action was decreed by God. From someone who thinks our every thought and action was decreed by God, any assertion that men are not robots and make real free free-will decisions comes across as "self determinism" and illogical. At any time, you can stop pretending to not understand what I am saying. That would be refreshing.

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

​

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

So man can exalt himself to God's level, to understand and judge such things? No need for man to choose if God has determined all things? How do you think God brings these things about? Your logic may as well say that all this that happens during our temporal stay on earth is unnecessary, since God will surely bring about the way of things in Heaven, since even you (I expect) believe that Heaven is the end of all this struggle on earth.

As you have heard, repeatedly, and still ignore, God knowing and surely causing, does not imply that anything happens automatically. He uses man's choice to accomplish what is contingent on man's choice. I don't think that is so hard to see. —¿Comprende?

 

[John Mullally]

So man can exalt himself to God's level, to understand and judge such things? No need for man to choose if God has determined all things? How do you think God brings these things about? Your logic may as well say that all this that happens during our temporal stay on earth is unnecessary, since God will surely bring about the way of things in Heaven, since even you (I expect) believe that Heaven is the end of all this struggle on earth.

God gave dominion of the earth to Adam and from my reading of Genesis, God did not micro-manage Adam, but instead tested him allowing for Satan to get to him by tempting Eve. In Genesis, God's relation to Adam and Eve does not exhibit the characteristics of puppet-master or helicopter parent, so it is astounding that Calvin comes up with this vacuous "Determinism", which I quoted in Post 32, and which you widely proliferate and will be held accountable (Matthew 12:36).

As you have heard, repeatedly, and still ignore, God knowing and surely causing, does not imply that anything happens automatically. He uses man's choice to accomplish what is contingent on man's choice. I don't think that is so hard to see. —¿Comprende?

If God determined every man's thought and action (as Calvin states), God is responsible for our action. It doesn't matter what method God used - such as assigning us a sinful nature due to Adam's sin and duping us into thinking our sinful thoughts were strictly our own idea (whether or not that is true) - God would still be responsible for our action as per Calvin, God decreed it. Try not to purposely misunderstand what I am saying - remember God sees all.