The Covenant is only for Israel - Not the World

[Soyeong]

The end of your statement above is correct, but you have never obeyed the Old Covenant Torah and you never will.

Only Jesus Christ obeyed the Torah.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that obedience to the Torah is not too difficult for us and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that no one but Jesus could do. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey his commandments, which are not burdensome, so to claim that has obeyed the Torah is to calm that none has ever loved God and to deny that His commandments are not burdensome. Furthermore, there are examples of people who did obey the Torah, such as in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-3 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to anything that God has commanded. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the law that is not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11. Rather, Galatians 3:10-12 associates a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 says that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys God's law shall live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as through who are living in obedience to God's law, so again it is of faith while works of the law are not. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust the Lawgiver is by trusting in what he has instructed, while denying that his law is of faith is denying the faithfulness of the Lawgiver. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, so obeying it through faith is not contrary to the work of the Spirit, but in accordance with it.

 

[BABerean2]

Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey his commandments, which are not burdensome, so to claim that has obeyed the Torah is to calm that none has ever loved God and to deny that His commandments are not burdensome.

You quote from 1 John chapter 5, but why are you ignoring chapter 3 where John reveals "his commandments" of the New Covenant? These would also be "his commandments" in chapter 5. Do you think John changed his mind after he recorded chapter 3?


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


What does your Bible say in this passage?




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[Soyeong]

You quote from 1 John chapter 5, but why are you ignoring chapter 3 where John reveals "his commandments" of the New Covenant? These would also be "his commandments" in chapter 5. Do you think John changed his mind after he recorded chapter 3?


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


What does your Bible say in this passage?

I did not ignore 1 John 3, but what you ignored my response to 1 John 3 at the bottom of post #118:

"In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commandments with those of the Father. If his commandments were not in accordance with those of the Father would mean that he was hypocritically practicing something other than what he preached and saying that we should do as he said, but not as he did. The Torah is God's word and the Son is God's word made flesh, so the Torah is God's instructions for how to believe in the name of His Son. It says that he that keeps Christ's commandments dwells in him, so that combined with 1 John 2:6 means that there is no difference between what he commanded and what he practiced."

So John did not change his mind after he recorded chapter 3 because he was not speaking about a different set of commandments than the Father, but rather Jesus was one with the Father.

 

[Soyeong]

Repeating your false accusation that I took something out-of-context does not prove the accusation.

What proves my accusation is the fact that the article is speaking about Jews being mistreated by Gentiles, not Jews persecuting Gentiles.

And you have not addressed the words of Jesus Himself about would happen to His followers in the synagogues. It certainly wasn't loving fellowship.

I have addressed what he said. You are ignoring that there is a connection between what someone does and why they are being persecuted. Jesus was speaking to Jews being persecuted because they were going into non-Christian synagogue in order preach the Gospel and testify about him, but he was not speaking about them facing universal and omnipresent hostility from which there was no escape. There were tens of thousands of Jews coming to faith, who knows how many Gentile believers, and you have not given any reason to think that they could not have formed their own communities where they did not face persecution from each other.

Paul called circumcision and keeping the law a yoke that he and his Jewish contemporaries and their ancestors could not bear but he supposedly told gentiles Christians to attend Jewish synagogues where the only thing they would hear would be the law of Moses, certainly nothing about Jesus. How many books in the NT are addressed to synagogues?

Again please address what I've said. In Acts 15:11, it shows that the ruling in verse 10 was in regard to the means of salvation and there that the burden that no one could bear was not and keeping the law, but a means of salvation other than salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed in Acts 15:1. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what he commanded was not too difficult for us to obey, so if they had been referring to circumcision and the law as being a burden that no one could bear, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God and in opposition to truth. I'm not sure why you are pretending that tens of thousands of Christian Jews is not enough to form hundreds of synagogues that Christian Gentiles could have gone to in order to hear about Jesus and the Mosaic Law while being free from persecution from non-Christian Jews. Those Gentiles could then have faced persecution if they had gone into non-Christian synagogues to preach the Gospel and testify about Jesus, but they would not have faced persecution from their own communities while they were still learning about the Gospel and how to testify about Jesus.

 

[BABerean2]

I did not ignore 1 John 3, but what you ignored my response to 1 John 3 at the bottom of post #118:

"In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commandments with those of the Father. If his commandments were not in accordance with those of the Father would mean that he was hypocritically practicing something other than what he preached and saying that we should do as he said, but not as he did. The Torah is God's word and the Son is God's word made flesh, so the Torah is God's instructions for how to believe in the name of His Son. It says that he that keeps Christ's commandments dwells in him, so that combined with 1 John 2:6 means that there is no difference between what he commanded and what he practiced."

So John did not change his mind after he recorded chapter 3 because he was not speaking about a different set of commandments than the Father, but rather Jesus was one with the Father.

Are you saying the commandments in 1 John 3:22-24 are exactly the same as those in Deut. 5:1-22?

If there are not two separate sets of commandments in John 15:10 why did Jesus not tell us to follow His father's commandments as He did?


John 15:10

(CSB) If you keep my commands you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

(ESV) If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

(ESV+) R11If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as R12I have kept R13my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

(Geneva) If ye shall keepe my commandements, ye shall abide in my loue, as I haue kept my Fathers commandements, and abide in his loue.

(GW) If you obey my commandments, you will live in my love. I have obeyed my Father's commandments, and in that way I live in his love.

(HCSB) If you keep My commands you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commands and remain in His love.

(KJV) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

(KJV+) IfG1437 ye keepG5083 myG3450 commandments,G1785 ye shall abideG3306 inG1722 myG3450 love;G26 even asG2531 IG1473 have keptG5083 myG3450 Father'sG3962 commandments,G1785 andG2532 abideG3306 inG1722 hisG846 love.G26

(NKJV) If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

(NLT) When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

(YLT) if my commandments ye may keep, ye shall remain in my love, according as I the commands of my Father have kept, and do remain in His love;




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[Soyeong]

Are you saying the commandments in 1 John 3:22-24 are exactly the same as those in Deut. 5:1-22?

If there are not two separate sets of commandments in John 15:10 why did Jesus not tell us to follow His father's commandments as He did?


John 15:10

(CSB) If you keep my commands you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

(ESV) If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

(ESV+) R11If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as R12I have kept R13my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

(Geneva) If ye shall keepe my commandements, ye shall abide in my loue, as I haue kept my Fathers commandements, and abide in his loue.

(GW) If you obey my commandments, you will live in my love. I have obeyed my Father's commandments, and in that way I live in his love.

(HCSB) If you keep My commands you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commands and remain in His love.

(KJV) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

(KJV+) IfG1437 ye keepG5083 myG3450 commandments,G1785 ye shall abideG3306 inG1722 myG3450 love;G26 even asG2531 IG1473 have keptG5083 myG3450 Father'sG3962 commandments,G1785 andG2532 abideG3306 inG1722 hisG846 love.G26

(NKJV) If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

(NLT) When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

(YLT) if my commandments ye may keep, ye shall remain in my love, according as I the commands of my Father have kept, and do remain in His love;




.

The Bible contains many parallel statements that are expressing the same thought in two different ways, so he was essentially saying that he had shown them how to keep the Father's commands and instructing them to keep his commands just as he showed them how to do. There are many problems that you should have with interpreting John 15:10 as Jesus as contrasting his commands with those of the Father, such as that it would mean that he was teaching against obeying the Father and was therefore not one with the Father in spite of saying in John 14:24 that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Torah. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed his people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for him was if they taught against obeying the Torah. Jesus set s sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and we are told follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), which would contradict Jesus telling us to reject his example and just do what he said. Furthermore, the goal of a disciple was to learn how to obey the Torah by following their rabbi's example. Everything that it is recorded that Jesus commanded was in accordance with the Torah, including 1 John 3:22-24.

 

[BABerean2]

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Torah.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


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[Soyeong]

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Do you see Hebrews 7:12 as showing that Jesus sinned by violating Deuteronomy 4:2?

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of the nature of God as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness, which is because it is God's instructions for how to experience, love, believe in, and testify about those aspects of His nature. For example, our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to the Father (Matthew 5:13-16), so God's commands teach us about His eternal goodness. In other words, the Mosaic Law teaches us about the eternal nature and identity of the God of Israel, such as with God's commands to help the poor and against adultery teaching us about who He is while if God had instead commanded to take advantage of the poor and to commit adultery, then that would have revealed something very different about His nature and identity. God's righteousness is eternal, therefore any instructions that He has given for how to experience, love, believe in, and testify about His righteousness are eternally valid (Psalms 119:160), so Hebrews 7:12 could not be speaking about a change of the law in regard to its content, such such as with it becoming in accordance with God's righteousness to take advantage of the poor and to commit adultery, but rather in context it is speaking about a change of the priesthood, so it is speaking about a change of the law in regard to its administration.

So the Mosaic Law presents a picture of the eternal nature of the God of Israel, which means that adding to or subtracting from it would distort or misrepresent His nature. The way to worship God is by acting in accordance with His nature and the problem of worshiping idols is that they distort or misrepresent God's nature. Jesus is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so if he had done anything less than that or if he had taught his own commands, then worshiping him as God would have been idolatry.

 

[BABerean2]

Do you see Hebrews 7:12 as showing that Jesus sinned by violating Deuteronomy 4:2?

Jesus was born under the Old Covenant. That is why His parents took doves for a sacrifice at the temple when He was a baby. They also brought with them the "Lamb of God" that day. Simeon recognized who he was and so did Anna.

He lived His whole life keeping the Old Covenant perfectly. His clothes, His beard, His foods, etc.

He died under the Old Covenant taking all of the blessings for us and taking all of the curses for us.

His blood also brought in a New Covenant making the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24.


This is what the Bible says.


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[Soyeong]

Jesus was born under the Old Covenant. That is why His parents took doves for a sacrifice at the temple when He was a baby. They also brought with them the "Lamb of God" that day. Simeon recognized who he was and so did Anna.

He lived His whole life keeping the Old Covenant perfectly. His clothes, His beard, His foods, etc.

He died under the Old Covenant taking all of the blessings for us and taking all of the curses for us.

His blood also brought in a New Covenant making the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24.


This is what the Bible says.


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Jesus spent his ministry showing how to correct live under the Mosaic Covenant by teaching us how to obey the Torah word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining everything that he taught, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10).

 

[BABerean2]

but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10).

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb. 8:10 quotes word for word from Jer. 31:31-34.

Why are you ignoring verse 13 of the same passage?



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[Soyeong]

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb. 8:10 quotes word for word from Jer. 31:31-34.

Why are you ignoring verse 13 of the same passage?



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It is clear that the Mosaic Covenant is forever:

Exodus 31:14-17 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. 16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

This means that the New Covenant includes everything in the Mosaic Covenant plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator, and doing everything that something else does and more is what it means to make something obsolete. All of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal Torah did not become obsolete alone with it. Verse 13 should not be understood in a way that contradicts verse 10.

 

[Der Alte]

It is clear that the Mosaic Covenant is forever:
You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. 16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”
This means that the New Covenant includes everything in the Mosaic Covenant plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator, and doing everything that something else does and more is what it means to make something obsolete. All of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal Torah did not become obsolete alone with it. Verse 13 should not be understood in a way that contradicts verse 10.

Did you happen to read this vs. in what you quoted?

16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel​

Here is another vs, stating the same thing.

Leviticus 24:8​

(8) Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.​

Please explain to me how the former pagan gentile Christians could follow all the OT commandments when they did not have them? We are spoiled, I have multiple free Bibles on my phone but for anyone, in Bible times, to have even one book of the Bible it would cost them 2-3 months wages. Even if an individual in Bible times had one or more books of the Bible they could not carry them around with them, each book would have been about the size of a roll of paper towels. All of the 10 commandments are stated, in the N.T., as required by gentile Christians except for #4.

 

[sparow]

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God isn't making a covenant with the world, He is only making the covenant with the House of Israel/the Twelve Tribes. If the world does not change citizenship to become part of Israel, they will not be given the Holy Spirit. Also when Christ returns, he's not coming to save the world, He is returning to save Israel--and Israel only.

Jeremiah 16:14-15 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that it shall no more be said, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.'

Matthew 24:22; Ezekiel 37:16-24

The Exodus and End Times are book ends. The entire Bible is Israel-centric; it only ever has to do with Israel and nations that come in contact with Israel. But just like during the Exodus, a great mixed multitude came out with Israel.

How does this set with people who are against the Hebrew Roots movements, or those from the past who accused Christians of Judaizing and persecuted them for it? If you're not Israel, you won't be rescued. You don't have to be blood Israel anymore, but how does one know your citizenship, except by your culture and behavior? You can't continue in man-made traditions and the culture of the world if you're an Israelite by birth or adoption. If the world doesn't recognize you as an Israelite, a Spiritual Jew, or a "Judaizer", as some mock, then it's unlikely God does as well.

I think there is something not quite right with your reasoning; Jeremiah is talking to the house of Israel, distinct from the house of Judah; are the lost sheep of Judah included in the new covenant, of course.


To say that the Bible is Israel-centric is not quite right, when you say say one does not have to be blood Israel anymore. Gentiles have always been able to come, be circumcised and enter into the covenant, and live in the promised land.


It is more useful to say the entire Bible is over-comer-centric; in the past only Jacob over-came; now each individual is required to overcome.

 

[BABerean2]

It is clear that the Mosaic Covenant is forever:

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the new covenant church of Mount Sion and the blood of Jesus in Hebrews 12:22-24. What does your Bible say in this passage?



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[Soyeong]

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the new covenant church of Mount Sion and the blood of Jesus in Hebrews 12:22-24. What does your Bible say in this passage?



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Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentile believer or it does not, so it is contradictory to treat it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow like the greatest two commandments while also treating it as being an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow. However, it was not an exhaustive list for mature Gentile believers, but as stated it was a list intended to not make things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by pointing out that Gentiles would continue to learn about Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so it was a common starting point from which Gentiles would continue to learn over time, not essentially ruling that Gentiles shouldn't follow Christ.

Again, I agree that we are under the New Covenant, which still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33).

 

[Soyeong]

Did you happen to read this vs. in what you quoted?

Yes, which is how I know that it is speaking about Jews being mistreated by Gentiles and is not speaking about Jews being persecuting Gentiles as you are trying to take it out of context to show.

16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel​

Here is another vs, stating the same thing.

Leviticus 24:8​

(8) Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.​

Keeping the Sabbath holy testifies that God created the world in six days, that he rested on the Sabbath, that He is holy, that He sanctifies us, and He saves His people out of bondage, so if you think that things that the Sabbath is a sign of are true, then you should live in a way that testifies about their true by keeping the Sabbath holy rather than a way that denies their truth. The Sabbath remains holy to God regardless of whether or not we recognize it as being such and what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep it holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that.

In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai, and in Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so the children of Israel is inclusive of Gentiles who become followers of the God of Israel. In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens to the covenants of promise, but through faith in Christ, Gentiles are now fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. In Romans 9:6-8, Israel is inclusive of those who have faith in the promise. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms that describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6). In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so if you want to be part of the New Covenant, then you need to become someone with whom it was made by becoming part of Israel through faith in Christ.

Please explain to me how the former pagan gentile Christians could follow all the OT commandments when they did not have them? We are spoiled, I have multiple free Bibles on my phone but for anyone, in Bible times, to have even one book of the Bible it would cost them 2-3 months wages. Even if an individual in Bible times had one or more books of the Bible they could not carry them around with them, each book would have been about the size of a roll of paper towels. All of the 10 commandments are stated, in the N.T., as required by gentile Christians except for #4.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and which include repenting from breaking the Sabbath. So a central part of spreading the Gospel is teaching Gentiles to obey the Mosaic Law. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he hadn't repeated any commands, including keeping the Sabbath holy, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). While many synagogues did not have their own Torah scroll and had to share them, many Jews nevertheless had them memorized and could still teach what they contained. The NT does not mention anything about its authors being in disagreement with God about which laws we should follow and editing them down to just what they repeated, though the Bible does speak against adding to or subtracting from the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 4:2).

 

[BABerean2]

Again, I agree that we are under the New Covenant, which still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33).

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, which is how I know that it is speaking about Jews being mistreated by Gentiles and is not speaking about Jews being persecuting Gentiles as you are trying to take it out of context to show.
Keeping the Sabbath holy testifies that God created the world in six days, that he rested on the Sabbath, that He is holy, that He sanctifies us, and He saves His people out of bondage, so if you think that things that the Sabbath is a sign of are true, then you should live in a way that testifies about their true by keeping the Sabbath holy rather than a way that denies their truth. The Sabbath remains holy to God regardless of whether or not we recognize it as being such and what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep it holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that.
In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai, and in Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so the children of Israel is inclusive of Gentiles who become followers of the God of Israel. In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens to the covenants of promise, but through faith in Christ, Gentiles are now fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. In Romans 9:6-8, Israel is inclusive of those who have faith in the promise. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms that describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6). In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so if you want to be part of the New Covenant, then you need to become someone with whom it was made by becoming part of Israel through faith in Christ.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and which include repenting from breaking the Sabbath. So a central part of spreading the Gospel is teaching Gentiles to obey the Mosaic Law. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he hadn't repeated any commands, including keeping the Sabbath holy, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). While many synagogues did not have their own Torah scroll and had to share them, many Jews nevertheless had them memorized and could still teach what they contained. The NT does not mention anything about its authors being in disagreement with God about which laws we should follow and editing them down to just what they repeated, though the Bible does speak against adding to or subtracting from the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 4:2).

Doesn't really address anything I have posted. All well and good, now show me some credible, verifiable, historical or any other kind of evidence showing that many synagogues regularly welcomed, uncircumcised former pagan Christians, who were not Jewish proselytes, into their synagogues? And if they did, how would those Christians grow in knowledge and Christian faith attending Jewish synagogues listening only to the OT?

 

[Soyeong]

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


.

The way to act in accordance with God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, and it is eternal, therefore any instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 longer before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, it remains a sin under the New Covenant, and if that were to ever change, then God's nature would not be eternal. The only way to have a different set of instructions for how to act in accordance with God's nature would be if they were given by a different God with a different nature than the God of Israel. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming in accordance with God's righteousness to commit adultery or sinful to helpful to help the poor, but rather in context it is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

According to Jeremiah 31:32, there is some degree that the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic Covenant, however, according to Jeremiah 31:33, is also not the case that they have nothing in common because they both involve following the Torah. As Hebrews 8:6-13 describes, the way that the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic Law is in regard to it being based on better promises with a superior mediatory, however it says nothing about being made with a different God with a different set of laws, but rather it is made with the same God with the same eternal nature and the same eternal Torah for how to act in accordance with His eternal nature (Hebrews 8:10).

Again, I agree that we are under the New Covenant and I have been speaking in regard to the way that we should live under it.