Is believing/faith a work ?

[Brightfame52]

I understand that none of what you say here is scripture.

Calvinists conflate Faith with Works. We receive the Spirit by hearing with faith (Galatians 3:2), and hence faith is our introduction to grace (Romans 5:1-2). However, from the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works. Calvinist "Irresistible Grace" is found no where in scripture.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?​

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Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.​

Christ's atonement saves those who believe. Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition, but Calvinists seek to revise God’s condition to imply that the atonement itself completes a transaction, in which the atonement itself does something to the individual which produces faith.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

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John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.​

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Numbers 21:6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.​

Its scriptural what Im saying, you evading it.

 

[Brightfame52]

Apparently you don't.

Again, Do you ?

 

[John Mullally]

Its scriptural what Im saying, you evading it.

You repeatedly present an argument (Post 1009) that contains no scripture and call it scriptural. You have a habit of poorly repeating Calvinist talking points and not listening.

 

[Brightfame52]

You repeatedly present an argument (Post 109) that contains no scripture and call it scriptural. You have a habit of poorly repeating Calvinist talking points and not listening.

Yes its scriptural, I have used scripture, did you start from my op ?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Again, Do you ?

I understand Jesus just fine

 

[Brightfame52]

I understand Jesus just fine

What about post 109 ? Explain that to me please.

 

[John Mullally]

Yes its scriptural, I have used scripture, did you start from my op ?

Where is the scriptural support for Post 1009 that you keep on referencing (see below):

Faith becomes a work, a meritorious work at that, whenever its taught that Christ died for everyone, yet nobody is actually saved or Justified before God by that, implying His death merely made getting saved available or possible, but when someone adds their work of Faith or believing, that made them saved or Justified !

These will say though Christs death was a payment for sin, yet nobody is actually Justified or saved by it !34

There is no scripture for anything you say in Post 1009. Its just bits and pieces of Calvinist arguments fused together.

There is nothing in the Bible about Faith becoming a meritorious work and its a bad idea to add to scripture.

Jesus said that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved. Its that simple.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.​

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We see an example of the Gospel being preached in Acts 2:36-41, where Peter promises salvation (forgiveness of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.​

 

[Brightfame52]

Where is the scriptural support for Post 1009 that you keep on referencing (see below):

There is no scripture for anything you say in Post 1009. Its just bits and pieces of Calvinist arguments fused together incoherently.

There is nothing in the Bible about Faith becoming a meritorious work and its a bad idea to add to scripture.

Jesus said that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved. Its that simple.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.​

​

We see an example of the Gospel being preached in Acts 2:36-41, where Peter promises salvation (forgiveness of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.​

That post is a derivative from what's been previously said. If you condition salvation on what you do, its works.

 

[John Mullally]

That post is a derivative from what's been previously said. If you condition salvation on what you do, its works.

There is no scripture that says placing a condition on salvation turns faith into works.

Jesus placed conditions on salvation. In Mark 16:15-16 (which I quoted in Post 1027) says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved and those who do not believe the Gospel will be damned. Your argument is with Jesus!

 

[Brightfame52]

There is no scripture that says putting a condition on salvation turns faith into works.

Jesus placed conditions on salvation. In Mark 16:15-16 (which I quoted in Post 1027) says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved and those who do not believe the Gospel will be damned. Your argument is with Jesus!

Salvation is by grace, not of works.

 

[John Mullally]

Salvation is by grace, not of works.

We have a different concept of grace and works as Calvinists have there own unique understanding of those terms. So that is why I skirt that issue by just straight going to Mark 16:15-16 which does not carry that baggage. But then you seem to have a problem with scriptures that make salvation conditional.

Jesus puts conditions on salvation and says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved. Good bye.

 

[Brightfame52]

See Faith is in contrast to works only when its viewed correctly in Gods Salvation package,

That is, Faith/Believing is not a action of the natural man, the unregenerate man that God views in them in order to save or justify them. However Faith or Believing is the Gift of God by which by Grace reigning, men are caused to believe in Christ or call upon His Name. Believing is the manifestation of the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in those whom God has chosen and predestinated to believe the Gospel of their Salvation, Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 34

 

[Brightfame52]

We have a different concept of grace and works as Calvinists have there own unique understanding of those terms. So that is why I skirt that issue by just straight going to Mark 16:15-16 which does not carry that baggage. But then you seem to have a problem with scriptures that make salvation conditional.

Jesus puts conditions on salvation and says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved. Good bye.

Once you make anything done by the person a condition to do in order for God to Justify you or save you, you have forsaken the way of Christ and Grace friend !

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

We have a different concept of grace and works as Calvinists have there own unique understanding of those terms. So that is why I skirt that issue by just straight going to Mark 16:15-16 which does not carry that baggage. But then you seem to have a problem with scriptures that make salvation conditional.

Jesus puts conditions on salvation and says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved. Good bye.

Amen brother

 

[Brightfame52]

I found this article on the internetnad its something I have said for years:

Faith: A gift? A work? Something in Between?​

My last post explained why the Arminian view of salvation ultimately is salvation by works. I explained that a “work” as conceptualized by Paul included the idea of doing something in exchange for a reward. The Arminian idea of justification by faith, therefore, necessarily leads to justification by works. In today’s post I’d like to look at and explore another reason, and a rather simple one, as to why Arminianism constitutes salvation by works: Faith is a work. More specifically, the activity of faith, which is believing, is a work. Hearing such a thing might sound like nails on a chalkboard even to many “Reformed” and “Sovereign Grace” folks. I have seen individuals from these backgrounds spinning their wheels trying to explain why faith somehow is and is not a work, and it seems to me that there is just as much confusion among sovereign grace affirming believers as there is among Arminians on this issue.
Let’s start off by simply looking at the definition of what a “work” is. Here is how a “work” is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition:

1.
a. Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something
3.
a. Something that one is doing, making, or performing, especially as an occupation or undertaking; a duty or task

Chambers’ is another reputible English Dictionary which gives nearly identical definitions:

1 physical or mental effort made in order to achieve or make something
8 anything done, managed, made or achieved, etc;

Mounce’s Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament gives this as the first definition for the Greek word for “work”:

ἔργον
ergon
anything done or to be done;

So a “work” by definition is simply that which someone does, whether physically or mentally. It is really just that simple. Let us now go to the Scriptures to see how faith is categorized:

John 6:28–29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The Son of God directly, in no uncertain terms, categorizes faith as a work in this verse. It is something that a person does. Let’s look at another text:

Acts 16:30–31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Paul was asked directly by the jailor what he must do to be saved. Paul could have said “You don’t have to do anything!”, but that’s not what he said. He said that the jailor needed to do something, namely, believe. A work is something that is done, therefore believing is a work.
Moreover, believing is a commandment which is pleasing to God. If you asked the average free-willer if a person gets to heaven by commandment-keeping, they would emphatically deny this, yet believing is categorized as exactly that:

1 John 3:22–23 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now, some will object that faith is a gift of God, and therefore is not a work. This is partially correct. I will explain. Faith is a God-given capacity which is implanted within the elect sinner upon regeneration. Historically theologians have referred to this as the habit or “seed” of faith. Elect, regenerate infants possess the habit or capacity of faith. What they do not possess is the activity of faith, i.e believing. Believing is what the sinner does, and is therefore his/her own, and is a work. This is why historically Arminianism was condemned all around by Reformed, Presbyterian and Particular Baptists as nothing short of works salvation. Because Arminians posited that a man was saved on the basis of his act of believing. Thus while it is true that the habit or capacity of faith is a gift of God, the act of faith is man’s act, not God’s. In other words, man believes, God does not believe for man, and therefore believing is a man’s doing, or work. It is that simple.
Whenever this perspective is brought up, there will inevitably be several texts of scripture that will be brought up contrasting faith with works. I will probably address these in later posts, Lord willing. For now I simply want to point out what should be rather obvious from Scripture. If we are just going by the dictionary definition, believing is a work.

Faith: A gift? A work? Something in Between?​

My last post explained why the Arminian view of salvation ultimately is salvation by works. I explained that a “work” as conceptualized by…

sinnersaved.medium.com F

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Salvation is the gift to the unbeliever, not faith. Faith is the means of how one becomes saved which is mans responsibility. Its through faith we are saved which is by His grace. Grace precedes salvation thought the conviction of the Holy Spirit though the message of the gospel.

What we see happening here is the conflating of saving faith with the gift of faith for the believers to be used in the body of Christ. The verses that speak about the gift of faith are already believers. Salvific faith is always with unbelievers that comes from the hearing and believing of the gospel message.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DingDing]

Is believing/faith a work ?

Well, that depends upon how you define those terms. (And "No", I didn't read your post) Try to start simple. I've been on biblical message boards for over 25 years and a moderator for many of those. Start simple.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well, that depends upon how you define those terms. (And "No", I didn't read your post) Try to start simple. I've been on biblical message boards for over 25 years and a moderator for many of those. Start simple.

If you are interested try starting with my op so you can gain an understanding of what Im talking about.

 

[DingDing]

If you are interested try starting with my op so you can gain an understanding of what Im talking about.

Can you give me a short version? If not, I'm done.

 

[Brightfame52]

Can you give me a short version? If not, I'm done.

Go to the op !