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My Research Challenge Re Noah's Flood

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AV1611VET

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1. Was the Flood story scientifically researched?

2. If so, was it thoroughly researched to see if it comported to how it was documented in the Bible?

3. If not, what parts were researched and what parts weren't?

4. Is there anything more that can be researched?

5. What is the scientific consensus of opinion on the Flood so far?
 

Warden_of_the_Storm

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6. Would you even actually care if anyone answered in the negative or positive to any of your questions?

Seriously: you already believe that the Flood happened as described in the Bible, adding in your own unique and very a-Biblical twists onto the story, and you have said time and time and time and time again that no amount of evidence will change your mind. So why go through this song and dance every time?
 
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JohnEmmett

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Spoken by a priest of Egypt…

There have been and will be again many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes…

… you remember one deluge only, whereas there were a number of them.

― Plato, Timaeus
 
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jayem

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The flood legend-as recounted in Gen. 6 is illogical. There are numerous Bible verses about God's omniscience. Just a few:

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite.

Psalm 147:5

Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

Psalm 139:4

Do you not know? Have you not heard?
The Everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth
Does not become weary or tired.
His understanding is inscrutable.

Isaiah 40:28

Then there is Gen 6:5-7:

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved [e]in His heart. The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the [f]sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

If God is omniscient, wouldn't he have known from the get-go that mankind would be wicked? To me, it's totally illogical that an all-knowing God would be grieved and sorry at how his creation turned out. Is there a sensible explanation for this?
 
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sjastro

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1. Was the Flood story scientifically researched?

2. If so, was it thoroughly researched to see if it comported to how it was documented in the Bible?

3. If not, what parts were researched and what parts weren't?

4. Is there anything more that can be researched?

5. What is the scientific consensus of opinion on the Flood so far?
You seem to have forgotten your claim God removed evidence of the great flood making research impossible.
Do I need to remind you of this geological map of the region where I live.

1686862737193.png


1686862782824.png
 
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JohnEmmett

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I'll take that to mean that the Bible is not literally true in toto.

“After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien
 
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Wolseley

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AV1611VET: I recommend that you obtain a copy of the book below. Read it carefully.

It is not a theology book, or even a religious book. It's a history book with scientific overtones. But I personally don't believe that anyone can read it, with an open mind, and not come away believing in the Great Deluge. It is recounted in literally every culture on the planet, from Pacific Islanders to Eskimos to African tribes to American Indians, Europeans, Chinese, and virtually every ancient empire known to man.

It happened, all right; and if you have the courage to set aside the myopic, hidebound, and obsolete strictures of Lyellian uniformitarianism and look at the physical evidence in a new light, the proof of it is all around us, right there in plain sight.

Was there a Great Flood? Yes, there was. Did it cover entire continents? Yes, it did. How did it happen? Read the book. All the information is in there.

I do wish you the very best, my friend.


51Lc4cJAQCL._SX370_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
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AV1611VET

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AV1611VET: I recommend that you obtain a copy of the book below. Read it carefully.

Hi, Woseley! :wave:

Thank you, my friend, for the kind words and the suggestion, but I already know the Flood happened as documented in the Bible.

I started this thread because I believe science leaves out a lot of what the Bible says about the Flood, then claims the Flood was properly researched and found wanting.

That, to me, is bologna.

Science wants to claim the Flood didn't happen as documented, because Mother Nature couldn't possibly have reduced the population down to bottleneck size and have it recover in so short a time -- (let alone recover at all).

But science only looks at the volume of rain generated, and ignores the rest: such as God telling Noah to build an Ark, God bringing the animals to the Ark, God sending the rain, God cleaning up the mess afterwards, etc.

So when science says they don't see any evidence for a worldwide flood as documented in the Bible, what they're really saying is they aren't taking the whole story into consideration.

If they did, they would have to admit that the Flood was a series of miracles -- (not Mother Nature) -- orchestrated by God.
 
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jayem

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“After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

“The man who invented the telescope found out more about heaven than the closed eyes of prayer ever discovered.”

Robert G. Ingersoll
AKA, “The Great Agnostic”
 
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Hans Blaster

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AV1611VET: I recommend that you obtain a copy of the book below. Read it carefully.

It is not a theology book, or even a religious book. It's a history book with scientific overtones. But I personally don't believe that anyone can read it, with an open mind, and not come away believing in the Great Deluge. It is recounted in literally every culture on the planet, from Pacific Islanders to Eskimos to African tribes to American Indians, Europeans, Chinese, and virtually every ancient empire known to man.

It happened, all right; and if you have the courage to set aside the myopic, hidebound, and obsolete strictures of Lyellian uniformitarianism and look at the physical evidence in a new light, the proof of it is all around us, right there in plain sight.

Was there a Great Flood? Yes, there was. Did it cover entire continents? Yes, it did. How did it happen? Read the book. All the information is in there.

I do wish you the very best, my friend.


View attachment 332392

"Crustal shifting, the tilting of Earth's axis, mass extinctions, upthrusted mountain ranges, rising and shrinking land masses, and gigantic volcanic eruptions and earthquakes-" (Amazon description)

Pseudohistory, pseudogeology, and it turns out...

"As a summary, the authors propose that a super dense, still luminescent fragment of an exploding star came careening thru the solar system 11500 years ago. In a close encounter with Earth, the entire planet was reshaped." (Amazon reviewer)

Pseudo-astronomy.

Yikes. "Fragments of exploded stars" don't hold together as solid bodies. The authors specifically seem to tie this to the Vela supernova remnant, a core collapse supernova. The outer ejecta (the stuff that *actually* got ejected in the supernova) would be nothing but a low density whisp of gas at this distance from the supernova site. The idea (not sure if it actually claimed or not) that a fragment of the remnant neutron star (the Vela pulsar) passed by the Earth is even more ludicrous as such an "chunk" would have expanded explosively if detached from the pulsar.

In short, this is garbage.
 
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AV1611VET

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“The man who invented the telescope found out more about heaven than the closed eyes of prayer ever discovered.”

Second Heaven -- not Third.
 
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Wolseley

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"Crustal shifting, the tilting of Earth's axis, mass extinctions, upthrusted mountain ranges, rising and shrinking land masses, and gigantic volcanic eruptions and earthquakes-" (Amazon description)

Pseudohistory, pseudogeology, and it turns out...

"As a summary, the authors propose that a super dense, still luminescent fragment of an exploding star came careening thru the solar system 11500 years ago. In a close encounter with Earth, the entire planet was reshaped." (Amazon reviewer)

Pseudo-astronomy.

Yikes. "Fragments of exploded stars" don't hold together as solid bodies. The authors specifically seem to tie this to the Vela supernova remnant, a core collapse supernova. The outer ejecta (the stuff that *actually* got ejected in the supernova) would be nothing but a low density whisp of gas at this distance from the supernova site. The idea (not sure if it actually claimed or not) that a fragment of the remnant neutron star (the Vela pulsar) passed by the Earth is even more ludicrous as such an "chunk" would have expanded explosively if detached from the pulsar.

In short, this is garbage.
Sure. Whatever you say. ;) I'd ask you if you've read it, but you would undoubtedly reply that you don't need to. No matter; no skin off my nose. Carry on. :)
 
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Hans Blaster

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Sure. Whatever you say. ;) I'd ask you if you've read it, but you would undoubtedly reply that you don't need to. No matter; no skin off my nose. Carry on. :)

Correct. I don't need to read it. The things that are claimed in the summary are physically impossible.
 
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Wolseley

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Correct. I don't need to read it. The things that are claimed in the summary are physically impossible.
Oh, absolutely without doubt. ^_^ You have a nice day now, y'hear? ;)
 
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eclipsenow

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1. Was the Flood story scientifically researched?

2. If so, was it thoroughly researched to see if it comported to how it was documented in the Bible?

3. If not, what parts were researched and what parts weren't?

4. Is there anything more that can be researched?

5. What is the scientific consensus of opinion on the Flood so far?
Once you SEE what kind of literature it is, things begin to fall into place.
The Hebrews were famous for inventing Chiastic structure. There are many passages written in this poetic form - including the Psalms. (It has had enormous cultural influence. Even the medieval Beowulf is written in this style.)
The point of this style? The meaning and most important part of the story is the middle - like the 'meat' in the middle of this 'story sandwich'. And what is that? Noah, sitting safely in the ark on top of the waters. The earth has been 'uncreated' back to the first chapter of Genesis - but this time God's appointed saviour is there.
1686983676955.png


Jesus was one of the most prolific writers of parables in the bible. But in early Genesis, how do you tell what genre of literature you're reading?
I'm confident that modern hermeneutics, the 'science' of interpreting what this meant to the original audience, that this was a theological interpretation of the local 'river' of flood creation narratives flowing through Babylon and Egypt and beyond. It's obviously a highly dressed up theological narrative - not focussing so much on the specific literal details as using a literary narrative to tell us important theological truths.

Listen to this podcast - one of the best Christian podcasts on the whole internet.
 
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The Righterzpen

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AV1611VET: I recommend that you obtain a copy of the book below. Read it carefully.

It is not a theology book, or even a religious book. It's a history book with scientific overtones. But I personally don't believe that anyone can read it, with an open mind, and not come away believing in the Great Deluge. It is recounted in literally every culture on the planet, from Pacific Islanders to Eskimos to African tribes to American Indians, Europeans, Chinese, and virtually every ancient empire known to man.

It happened, all right; and if you have the courage to set aside the myopic, hidebound, and obsolete strictures of Lyellian uniformitarianism and look at the physical evidence in a new light, the proof of it is all around us, right there in plain sight.

Was there a Great Flood? Yes, there was. Did it cover entire continents? Yes, it did. How did it happen? Read the book. All the information is in there.

I do wish you the very best, my friend.


View attachment 332392
This book looks intriguing.

I've encountered various different types of books from various sources and perspectives that speak of quite the menagerie of unexplainable events happening in the cosmos. There's one I have "Maps of the ancient sea kings" that talks about planets in the solar system "getting out of alignment" (and than back in). One theory stating that Venus was a comet.

It was an interesting book. I think there's a lot about this universe and what's happened in it that we don't understand.
 
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Wolseley

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This book looks intriguing.

I've encountered various different types of books from various sources and perspectives that speak of quite the menagerie of unexplainable events happening in the cosmos. There's one I have "Maps of the ancient sea kings" that talks about planets in the solar system "getting out of alignment" (and than back in). One theory stating that Venus was a comet.

It was an interesting book. I think there's a lot about this universe and what's happened in it that we don't understand.
I think you would find it very enlightening, Righterzpen; and I can name several others that are nearly as good. :)

As for the "supernova remnants don't behave that way, ergo, this is all scientifically impossible" response, well, these other books go into that in a little more detail as well; it also could have been a comet; a meteorite; rocky remnants from the planet that used to be between Mars and Jupiter----but it got hit by something that turned it into the asteroid belt. ;)

Again, for those who have the courage to think outside the box, this concept is not a problem. For those who are smugly secure in what they "know is correct" (sort of the way anthropologists used to be before Darwin came along, LOL), they'll never get any further ahead; they'll be stuck in their hidebound ideas forever, no matter what kind of new data is discovered. Research labs the world over are loaded with these types---they know what they learned in grad school, by gum, and thats the way it is! ^_^

If you ever have a desire to study ancient fossils, go find a guy who's published a "peer-reviewed" dissertation, lol.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I think you would find it very enlightening, Righterzpen; and I can name several others that are nearly as good. :)

As for the "supernova remnants don't behave that way, ergo, this is all scientifically impossible" response, well, these other books go into that in a little more detail as well; it also could have been a comet; a meteorite; rocky remnants from the planet that used to be between Mars and Jupiter----but it got hit by something that turned it into the asteroid belt. ;)

Again, for those who have the courage to think outside the box, this concept is not a problem. For those who are smugly secure in what they "know is correct" (sort of the way anthropologists used to be before Darwin came along, LOL), they'll never get any further ahead; they'll be stuck in their hidebound ideas forever, no matter what kind of new data is discovered. Research labs the world over are loaded with these types---they know what they learned in grad school, by gum, and thats the way it is! ^_^

If you ever have a desire to study ancient fossils, go find a guy who's published a "peer-reviewed" dissertation, lol.
Yeah, I think a lot of what we come to understand as "laws that govern the universe" may not be wholly (100% of the time) consistent to our understanding.

Now what exactly Venus is; is a good question because nothing can get through the atmosphere to know is it like unto the structure of this planet? The assumption is the atmosphere is nitric acid. Which... is that what makes comets "glow"? (I don't know?) I wonder too, if Venus is a comet that hit what ever planet had become the asteroid belt. (That would make sense too.)

There's some interesting archeology on planet earth. I ran across an article; at least a decade ago now that stated that under X amount of feet of mud in China; they found a civilization that had writing that looked like cuneiform. (The precursor to Hebrew.) Obviously this is different than the style of writing China used in subsequent centuries. Which makes me wonder? We know "where" Noah's ark "landed" (or at least the name of the mountain; yet was Ararat in ancient times where it is today? (Not sure we know?) Could Noah have started in what is today China?

There's another theory that an asteroid hit the basin that became the Gulf of Mexico. If that is true; that would make sense too of what became the origin point of what commenced the dividing of the continents. If a "tidal wave" started on that end of "Pangea" and Noah was on the other end of "Pangea" the safest direction for the ark to have gone would have been out over the Pacific ocean. All the debris from one end of "Pangea" would have had it's largest deposits on the other end of the east coast of the Pacific. Yet the "end" of the "ring of fire" is off the coast of Japan. That is the deepest sub ocean trench that we know of. Thus if a lot of debris from the continent ended up on the Pacific ocean; it would have been swallowed up by volcanic activity by now.

Which brings me to another "observable point" about the techtonic plates on this planet.

"As the lightening from the east to the west; so shall the coming of the son of man be."

The "mid-Atlantic ridge" begins somewhere in Iran. Iran is the most seismically active country on the planet. The ridge runs up into Russia (The Ural mountains is the dividing point between the European and Asian plates. It runs up over Scandinavia, south between Britain and Iceland and down the center of the Atlantic Ocean. From there it goes around South America, up the west coast of North America and down the east coast of Asia. It goes south around Australia (Which at one point was probably part of South East Asia or India? The fault line goes up over North India, cuts through the Persian Gulf, literally through the middle of Jerusalem into the Meditation Sea. It ends somewhere on the southern end of Spain. Literally travels "east to west". "Meeting up" and ending almost exactly where it started.

Now, fast forward from Noah's ark to the crucifixion. What happened when Jesus died? (There was an earthquake.) Now if that had run from the origin point of the dividing of the continents starting from the flood; it literally would have split the planet in half.

Now fast forward again to the 2nd coming. The commencement of the destruction of this earth starts with Jerusalem. Aint that wild!

Another interesting thing from archeology.

3 civilizations: Rome, the Mayans and the Chinese all record what looks like a comet coming from the earth. Josephus talks about this. He calls it "the sword of the Lord". The Romans record the same phenomena. Both Romans and Josephus pinpoint this to the 1st century. The Chinese also pinpoint this to the 1st century. The Mayans; it's hard to tell because we're not exactly sure when their calendar started.

Now go back to Exodus. When Israel left Egypt; what did they see on their side of the division between them and the Egyptian army? (They saw a cloud.) What'd the Egyptian army see? (They saw a pillar of fire.)

Fast forward again to the ascension. What did the disciples see? (A cloud.) What did the rest of the world see? (A pillar of fire?)

When Jesus returns; what do you suppose will be the first thing the global media will report? (Probably a comet approaching earth!)

Interesting huh!
Ponder that a bit!
 
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