Pope Francis Says Traditional Latin Mass Was Being Used in an Ideological Way

[Michie]

The Pope spoke about the Latin Mass in a private conversation with Jesuits on the second day of his April 28–30 trip to Budapest, Hungary.

Pope Francis said he implemented one of the changes of Traditionis custodes, the 2021 motu proprio restricting the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass, because the allowances granted by his predecessors were “being used in an ideological way.”

The Pope spoke about the Latin Mass in a private conversation with Jesuits on the second day of his April 28–30 trip to Budapest, Hungary. The text of the April 29 meeting with Jesuits was published by the Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica on May 9.

During the question and answer session, Pope Francis said he was concerned about a “reaction against the modern,” or what he calls in Italian “indietrismo,” which translates in English to “backwardness.”

“It is a nostalgic disease,” he said, explaining that this is the reason why he made it necessary for priests ordained after July 16, 2021, to seek authorization from their bishop and the Holy See to offer Mass according to the 1962, pre-Vatican II liturgical books, what is commonly referred to as the Latin Mass.

Continued below.

Pope Francis Says Traditional Latin Mass Was Being Used in an Ideological Way

The Pope spoke about the Latin Mass in a private conversation with Jesuits on the second day of his April 28–30 trip to Budapest, Hungary.

www.ncregister.com

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Pope spoke about the Latin Mass in a private conversation with Jesuits on the second day of his April 28–30 trip to Budapest, Hungary.

Pope Francis said he implemented one of the changes of Traditionis custodes, the 2021 motu proprio restricting the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass, because the allowances granted by his predecessors were “being used in an ideological way.”

The Pope spoke about the Latin Mass in a private conversation with Jesuits on the second day of his April 28–30 trip to Budapest, Hungary. The text of the April 29 meeting with Jesuits was published by the Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica on May 9.

During the question and answer session, Pope Francis said he was concerned about a “reaction against the modern,” or what he calls in Italian “indietrismo,” which translates in English to “backwardness.”

“It is a nostalgic disease,” he said, explaining that this is the reason why he made it necessary for priests ordained after July 16, 2021, to seek authorization from their bishop and the Holy See to offer Mass according to the 1962, pre-Vatican II liturgical books, what is commonly referred to as the Latin Mass.

Continued below.

Pope Francis Says Traditional Latin Mass Was Being Used in an Ideological Way

The Pope spoke about the Latin Mass in a private conversation with Jesuits on the second day of his April 28–30 trip to Budapest, Hungary.

www.ncregister.com

And the Nicene Creed is likewise backward, as is the Bible, and every pope before pope Francis. Good grief.

Some new pope will have to undo Traditionis custodes if just for simple justice.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Pope Francis is right on.

Latin was a way to keep people in the dark.

I grew up in the Church before Vatican II. It was not what trads like to romanticize it
was. People sat in the pews and prayed the Rosary, or tried to follow in a missal. PA
systems were not what they are today and for the most part, all we could hear is the
priest and altar boys mumbling off the words of the Mass in Latin. We stood, kneeled and
sat on que. At the Consecration, we knew what was taking place at the altar, but not everyone
knew the words.

The Church will never go back to a Latin only Mass.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Pope Francis is right on.

Latin was a way to keep people in the dark.

I grew up in the Church before Vatican II. It was not what trads like to romanticize it
was. People sat in the pews and prayed the Rosary, or tried to follow in a missal. PA
systems were not what they are today and for the most part, all we could hear is the
priest and altar boys mumbling off the words of the Mass in Latin. We stood, kneeled and
sat on que. At the Consecration, we knew what was taking place at the altar, but not everyone
knew the words.

The Church will never go back to a Latin only Mass.

I grew up then too, and it was not all fond memories.

But Latin WAS the vernacular for a long long time and not a way to keep people in the dark. It did keep some people in the dark, granted, but the missals were available for those who were learning the meaning of the mass.

We have to contend with the fact that the new mass did not bring a flowering of devotion. That was what was supposed to happen, if only everything were simplified, and in the local language, and the PA system was modern, and the music was relevant. Most Catholics don't darken the door of a Catholic church these days. Of those who do, plenty of them, rightly or wrongly, prefer a Latin mass. And they bring their children along, lots of children.

I think there is a bit of romanticizing going on, and some nostalgia. But that doesn't explain it all. For all of the deficiencies of the mass prior to 1965, there are some huge deficiencies with the mass after 1970 too. And lots of people have voted with their feet to opt out of the new mass, either to become a None, or a Protestant, or a TLM devotee. I'm not saying the change in the mass was the only thing going on. We had a sexual revolution in the mean time too. But not everything is liturgically rosy now either.

What pope Benedict seemed to have wanted was a hybrid, with TLM and NO cross-fertilizing each other. I think that was a noble goal, and in line with what Vatican II actually wanted for the liturgy if the V2 document on the liturgy still means anything.

But now there is a liturgical war going on. With casualties. It's not pretty. And I think it's getting worse. Traditionis custodes seems to have been the nuclear weapon of the war so far. I don't think it was at all necessary or just to use it.

 

[mourningdove~]

I heard a discussion on EWTN radio this week, and the statistics shared were kind of mind boggling!

What I heard was this, that:

70% of those attending the Novus Ordo mass do not believe in the Real Presence.

100% of those attending the Latin Mass do believe in the Real Presence.

Do those statistics ring true to you all?

While I'll agree there may be some romanticizing going on about 'the Latin Mass days', if those statistics are true, or even remotely true,
then it would appear there is something 'more' happening, than mere romantizing ...

 

[Erose]

I grew up then too, and it was not all fond memories.

But Latin WAS the vernacular for a long long time and not a way to keep people in the dark. It did keep some people in the dark, granted, but the missals were available for those who were learning the meaning of the mass.

We have to contend with the fact that the new mass did not bring a flowering of devotion. That was what was supposed to happen, if only everything were simplified, and in the local language, and the PA system was modern, and the music was relevant. Most Catholics don't darken the door of a Catholic church these days. Of those who do, plenty of them, rightly or wrongly, prefer a Latin mass. And they bring their children along, lots of children.

I think there is a bit of romanticizing going on, and some nostalgia. But that doesn't explain it all. For all of the deficiencies of the mass prior to 1965, there are some huge deficiencies with the mass after 1970 too. And lots of people have voted with their feet to opt out of the new mass, either to become a None, or a Protestant, or a TLM devotee. I'm not saying the change in the mass was the only thing going on. We had a sexual revolution in the mean time too. But not everything is liturgically rosy now either.

What pope Benedict seemed to have wanted was a hybrid, with TLM and NO cross-fertilizing each other. I think that was a noble goal, and in line with what Vatican II actually wanted for the liturgy if the V2 document on the liturgy still means anything.

But now there is a liturgical war going on. With casualties. It's not pretty. And I think it's getting worse. Traditionis custodes seems to have been the nuclear weapon of the war so far. I don't think it was at all necessary or just to use it.

There is not a single person who left the Catholic Church because of the Novus Ordo that went anywhere except for SSPX or one of the Sedevacantist groups. And since their membership isn't necessarily overflowing; one has to assume that the far majority of Catholics who left, left for completely other reasons.

I get that the Western churches has a problem with keeping membership, but it has nothing to do with the liturgy. We have spoken quite a bit about why what is happening is happening; and IMO it has to do with three things: CEO of a NGO model Episcopacy; poor adult catechism; and a clergy afraid to preach on the hard stuff. You fix those three things, the Church will start growing again. We need shepherds not CEO's; we all need help growing in our spiritual life, and we need priests who are honest enough with us to tell us we are wrong and going the wrong way.

 

[Erose]

I heard a discussion on EWTN radio this week, and the statistics shared were kind of mind boggling!

What I heard was this, that:

70% of those attending the Novus Ordo mass do not believe in the Real Presence.

100% of those attending the Latin Mass do believe in the Real Presence.

Do those statistics ring true to you all?

While I'll agree there may be some romanticizing going on about 'the Latin Mass days', if those statistics are true, or even remotely true,
then it would appear there is something 'more' happening, than mere romantizing ...

Yeah you have to be careful with these statistics. Nominal Catholics are not going to go to a PXII Mass. And those 30% that attend NO Masses that believe in the Real Presence is a significantly larger number than the 100% that attend Latin Masses.

 

[Erose]

If you spend any time on Twitter or Facebook, you really understand what Pope Francis did. There are a lot of anti-Catholic Catholics out there that attend Latin Masses. The vitriol against our Liturgy and our Pope is without a doubt a serious issue. I can get that one prefers the Old Latin rite over the New Latin rite; but they feel like they have to belittle the NO rite, even calling it heretical.

Not to speak of calling Pope Francis a heretic and an anti-pope. I get if you don't like him. I personally am not a fan of his. But to call him an anti-pope is quite honestly showing your cards that you really don't know what a pope or anti-pope is.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I grew up then too, and it was not all fond memories.

But Latin WAS the vernacular for a long long time and not a way to keep people in the dark. It did keep some people in the dark, granted, but the missals were available for those who were learning the meaning of the mass.

We have to contend with the fact that the new mass did not bring a flowering of devotion. That was what was supposed to happen, if only everything were simplified, and in the local language, and the PA system was modern, and the music was relevant. Most Catholics don't darken the door of a Catholic church these days. Of those who do, plenty of them, rightly or wrongly, prefer a Latin mass. And they bring their children along, lots of children.

I think there is a bit of romanticizing going on, and some nostalgia. But that doesn't explain it all. For all of the deficiencies of the mass prior to 1965, there are some huge deficiencies with the mass after 1970 too. And lots of people have voted with their feet to opt out of the new mass, either to become a None, or a Protestant, or a TLM devotee. I'm not saying the change in the mass was the only thing going on. We had a sexual revolution in the mean time too. But not everything is liturgically rosy now either.

What pope Benedict seemed to have wanted was a hybrid, with TLM and NO cross-fertilizing each other. I think that was a noble goal, and in line with what Vatican II actually wanted for the liturgy if the V2 document on the liturgy still means anything.

But now there is a liturgical war going on. With casualties. It's not pretty. And I think it's getting worse. Traditionis custodes seems to have been the nuclear weapon of the war so far. I don't think it was at all necessary or just to use it.

The boomer mass will die when they do, and if it survives it'll be only by the persistent defiance of God by heretics like James Martin.

I heard a discussion on EWTN radio this week, and the statistics shared were kind of mind boggling!

What I heard was this, that:

70% of those attending the Novus Ordo mass do not believe in the Real Presence.

100% of those attending the Latin Mass do believe in the Real Presence.

Do those statistics ring true to you all?

While I'll agree there may be some romanticizing going on about 'the Latin Mass days', if those statistics are true, or even remotely true,
then it would appear there is something 'more' happening, than mere romantizing ...

That was from a survey conducted a few years ago and in my experience, yes, the statistics do bear out. I don't even think my own step kids believe in the Eucharist let alone anything else about God and His Church, they're just playing along for mom's sake and I came along too late to do anything about it.

In every Latin Mass I've been to there's a deep sincerity there surrounding every single parishioner in attendance that reflects both humility and devotion to the faith. They demonstrate that they've taken the time to learn and understand it properly so they can respect it the way it should be and worship God the way that He is truly owed.

I go to the Novus Ordo every Sunday because that's all I have here now, and that's been my main diet going back to starting RCIA eight years ago. At every Mass I would suspect about half don't take it seriously and their belief in the pillars of Catholic faith is tenuous at best. I can't and won't judge what's truly in their heart, but it's always been true that you can get a good idea based on how people present themselves, body language, posture, and behavior. So much of that stuff is bad in a novus ordo, and this is scattered across multiple parishes in multiple diocese that I've attended over the past six years. There's an endless tension between half the parishioners wanting to take it seriously and do things properly, and the other half wanting to corrupt it into a Hillsong festival.

Like the saying goes, lex orandi lex credendi, and in every case the only people who didn't subscribe to the Church's doctrines were found in the novus ordo, not the traditional mass(es).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I grew up then too, and it was not all fond memories.

But Latin WAS the vernacular for a long long time and not a way to keep people in the dark. It did keep some people in the dark, granted, but the missals were available for those who were learning the meaning of the mass.

We have to contend with the fact that the new mass did not bring a flowering of devotion. That was what was supposed to happen, if only everything were simplified, and in the local language, and the PA system was modern, and the music was relevant. Most Catholics don't darken the door of a Catholic church these days. Of those who do, plenty of them, rightly or wrongly, prefer a Latin mass. And they bring their children along, lots of children.

I think there is a bit of romanticizing going on, and some nostalgia. But that doesn't explain it all. For all of the deficiencies of the mass prior to 1965, there are some huge deficiencies with the mass after 1970 too. And lots of people have voted with their feet to opt out of the new mass, either to become a None, or a Protestant, or a TLM devotee. I'm not saying the change in the mass was the only thing going on. We had a sexual revolution in the mean time too. But not everything is liturgically rosy now either.

What pope Benedict seemed to have wanted was a hybrid, with TLM and NO cross-fertilizing each other. I think that was a noble goal, and in line with what Vatican II actually wanted for the liturgy if the V2 document on the liturgy still means anything.

But now there is a liturgical war going on. With casualties. It's not pretty. And I think it's getting worse. Traditionis custodes seems to have been the nuclear weapon of the war so far. I don't think it was at all necessary or just to use it.

Latin was the common language for the West as Christianity expanded into Europe. However, by the Middle Ages, Classical Latin was only used by the clergy and people used their own petois to communicate with each other.

By the 1500s, Classical Latin was never used my the average person and not even understood. As I posted before,
St Teresa of Avila, could not read the Bible because translations other than Classical Latin were not allowed. Only
Bishops and priests trained in Classical Latin could read Scripture.

Flowering devotion comes from within the individual, not the format of the Mass. I have attended the Novos Ordo
in the vernacular and in Latin. Both formats were celebrated at monasteries. The Trappist celebrated the Novos Ordo
in the vernacular(English) and the Benedictines celebrated the Novos Ordo in completely Latin, just on Thursdays.
The rest of the week only parts of the Mass were in Latin, the rest was in English. In both cases, the devotion was
by the monks and the people attending. Now, return to the average parish and the devotion is limited. Again, it's
the people celebrating the Mass who make it reverent or not.

Pope Francis is merely following what Vatican II established and those trying to return to the pre-Vatican II days are
generally doing so out of a conservative political ideology with little if any understanding.

The Novus Ordo in the vernacular is the "ordinary," while the TLM is the extraordinary and must be given
permission by the Bishop to celebrate it. We have it in the parish near me at 2PM on Sundays. I'm not sure
how many attend that Mass, but as I saw in other parishes, it's not the majority of the parishioners of that
parish, but a minority. The others travel from outside their deanery and even outside their dioceses to attend
the TLM there.

I never want to return to the TLM, nor to a Mass where the language is foreign to the congregation.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The boomer mass will die when they do, and if it survives it'll be only by the persistent defiance of God by heretics like James Martin.

That was from a survey conducted a few years ago and in my experience, yes, the statistics do bear out. I don't even think my own step kids believe in the Eucharist let alone anything else about God and His Church, they're just playing along for mom's sake and I came along too late to do anything about it.

In every Latin Mass I've been to there's a deep sincerity there surrounding every single parishioner in attendance that reflects both humility and devotion to the faith. They demonstrate that they've taken the time to learn and understand it properly so they can respect it the way it should be and worship God the way that He is truly owed.

I go to the Novus Ordo every Sunday because that's all I have here now, and that's been my main diet going back to starting RCIA eight years ago. At every Mass I would suspect about half don't take it seriously and their belief in the pillars of Catholic faith is tenuous at best. I can't and won't judge what's truly in their heart, but it's always been true that you can get a good idea based on how people present themselves, body language, posture, and behavior. So much of that stuff is bad in a novus ordo, and this is scattered across multiple parishes in multiple diocese that I've attended over the past six years. There's an endless tension between half the parishioners wanting to take it seriously and do things properly, and the other half wanting to corrupt it into a Hillsong festival.

Like the saying goes, lex orandi lex credendi, and in every case the only people who didn't subscribe to the Church's doctrines were found in the novus ordo, not the traditional mass(es).

Boomer Mass? No such thing!

Please, the Novus Ordo is closer to being like the Mass celebrated by the early Church than the TLM, and anyone
who knows the history of the Mass, knows this.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Anyway, the debate about the TLM and the NO in the vernacular come up
too often in this forum.

There are some who are really driven by ideology than faith. Pope Francis is right!

 

[chevyontheriver]

There is not a single person who left the Catholic Church because of the Novus Ordo that went anywhere except for SSPX or one of the Sedevacantist groups.

I'm not sure of that. Unless you consider the Orthodox to be Sedevacantist. I think the dramatic change of the liturgy in 1970 simply left many unmoored. But so did other things. And they floated in numerous directions. Almost Brownian motion it seems to me.

And since their membership isn't necessarily overflowing; one has to assume that the far majority of Catholics who left, left for completely other reasons.

There were lots of reasons. But the liturgy was perhaps the most experiential.

I get that the Western churches has a problem with keeping membership, but it has nothing to do with the liturgy. We have spoken quite a bit about why what is happening is happening; and IMO it has to do with three things: CEO of a NGO model Episcopacy; poor adult catechism; and a clergy afraid to preach on the hard stuff.

I agree that these are big. Bishops have been managers more than teachers, catechesis got really really bad for a good long while in the 1970's and 1980's, and we got the attitude that the hard stuff was optional if not outdated.

You fix those three things, the Church will start growing again. We need shepherds not CEO's; we all need help growing in our spiritual life, and we need priests who are honest enough with us to tell us we are wrong and going the wrong way.

Those will help. But I don't think liturgy is a big nothingburger in this consideration either. I wish we could have gotten the liturgical reforms Vatican II spelled out instead of what we got. The old pre-Vatican II liturgy needed some work. What we ended up with broke some things that didn't need fixing in trying to fix a few things that did need fixing. It was not a very 'organic' reform.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I'm not sure of that. Unless you consider the Orthodox to be Sedevacantist. I think the dramatic change of the liturgy in 1970 simply left many unmoored. But so did other things. And they floated in numerous directions. Almost Brownian motion it seems to me.

There were lots of reasons. But the liturgy was perhaps the most experiential.

I agree that these are big. Bishops have been managers more than teachers, catechesis got really really bad for a good long while in the 1970's and 1980's, and we got the attitude that the hard stuff was optional if not outdated.

Those will help. But I don't think liturgy is a big nothingburger in this consideration either. I wish we could have gotten the liturgical reforms Vatican II spelled out instead of what we got. The old pre-Vatican II liturgy needed some work. What we ended up with broke some things that didn't need fixing in trying to fix a few things that did need fixing. It was not a very 'organic' reform.

Catholics were leaving the Church back in the 70's and going to the Eastern Religions.

It's why Pope Paul VI asked the contemplative orders in the Church, like the Cistercians and Benedictines,
to begin dialog with the masters of the Eastern Religions in order to learn what was drawing young Catholics
to them. Thomas Merton was one of the monks who began that dialogue. What they learned quickly was that the young Catholics desired more of a contemplative prayer life. It was from there that monks started to teach about Lectio Divina and Meditation, which became known as Centering Prayer. This of course angered many trads and Contemplation was attacked as being New age, and Centering Prayer was banned from CAF for many years. The administrators finally got educated and lifted the ban.

 

[mourningdove~]

Boomer Mass? No such thing!

Please, the Novus Ordo is closer to being like the Mass celebrated by the early Church than the TLM, and anyone
who knows the history of the Mass, knows this.

Are you sure about that? lol

I visited a very large Catholic Church Sunday, the largest in my area, that advertises itself as a "Catholic Community on Journey in the Tradition of the Second Vatican Council".

Mass is quite different there, than at a Latin Mass.

For openers, when the priest initially got to the altar, he looked out the congregation, greeted us all, and asked how everyone was doing? He welcomed us. Then ... on to the Mass ...

But the most interesting thing was watching this priest while the collection was being taken up:
A modern, lively song was being played and, while standing in front of the congregation, there he was clapping his hands joyfully and dancing.


lol ... This priest, their pastor, is from a country like Nigeria and continually smiles. So I am guessing he may be filled with the joy of the Lord. But it was so very different to see this going on in the front of the church, during the collection.

Leaving at the end of the Mass, the priest left the altar, took hold of a baby from within the congregation, and proceeded down the aisle joyfully with this baby in his arms. All the time, he is smiling.

Do you think there was alot of gaiety when the Mass was celebrated by the early Church?

 

[mourningdove~]

The boomer mass will die when they do, and if it survives it'll be only by the persistent defiance of God by heretics like James Martin.

That was from a survey conducted a few years ago and in my experience, yes, the statistics do bear out. I don't even think my own step kids believe in the Eucharist let alone anything else about God and His Church, they're just playing along for mom's sake and I came along too late to do anything about it.

In every Latin Mass I've been to there's a deep sincerity there surrounding every single parishioner in attendance that reflects both humility and devotion to the faith. They demonstrate that they've taken the time to learn and understand it properly so they can respect it the way it should be and worship God the way that He is truly owed.

I go to the Novus Ordo every Sunday because that's all I have here now, and that's been my main diet going back to starting RCIA eight years ago. At every Mass I would suspect about half don't take it seriously and their belief in the pillars of Catholic faith is tenuous at best. I can't and won't judge what's truly in their heart, but it's always been true that you can get a good idea based on how people present themselves, body language, posture, and behavior. So much of that stuff is bad in a novus ordo, and this is scattered across multiple parishes in multiple diocese that I've attended over the past six years. There's an endless tension between half the parishioners wanting to take it seriously and do things properly, and the other half wanting to corrupt it into a Hillsong festival.

Like the saying goes, lex orandi lex credendi, and in every case the only people who didn't subscribe to the Church's doctrines were found in the novus ordo, not the traditional mass(es).

I very much look forward to the day when I can go 'in person' to a Latin Mass (offline). It's on my bucket list. For real.

But for now, I, too, will be going to Novus Ordo Masses. The nearest Latin Mass to me is an hour away.

Fortunately, there are some churches in my area where the NO Mass is done reverently. But there are others where it 'appears' there is little reverence for, or understanding of, what is actually happening on the altar, and I see the same things you have described.

I consciously work to not judge those who show less devotion. (I don't know what measure of faith they have been given?)

And I'm beginning to wonder if belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a gift?
Because so many do not believe, I'm really beginning to think that it is ...

... like, really.

 

[Erose]

I'm not sure of that. Unless you consider the Orthodox to be Sedevacantist. I think the dramatic change of the liturgy in 1970 simply left many unmoored. But so did other things. And they floated in numerous directions. Almost Brownian motion it seems to me.

Okay, even if you include the Orthodox in the list I provided, what growth they had, does not account for the loss of Catholic membership. Catholics left the Church because they weren't being fed. Had nothing to do with the Mass itself. The Catholic Church in the USA for the most part has become something you do on the weekends for an hour tops, and you don't start taking your faith seriously until you are getting to the age were you know you aren't far removed from the grim-reaper, so you start going to daily Mass.

What the Church doesn't do, is teach Catholics how to be Saints. Spiritual Advisors are not something that most Catholics have or even know is an option. Besides, we are at a point now that there isn't enough qualified men and women who could be spiritual advisors if this became a thing again in the Church. But that being said, how many Catholics outside a monastery or convent have been introduced to even the basics of the spiritual life? How many know of the three Ways? How many have been taught mental prayer? How many have been introduced to the Divine Office?

There were lots of reasons. But the liturgy was perhaps the most experiential.

I just can't agree less. I find it comical right now that the focus of traditional Catholics is on the Mass, where the ails of our Church in America and probably in Europe has to do many worse things than the Mass. I personally have benefited greatly from the Mass, and I don't ask God for it, because that isn't why I am there. I'm there to worship my God, and spend some time with His Son, My God.

Holiness in our people must come from focusing on giving them the tools to become Saints, to help them on the long journey. In my opinion, the Latin Mass has become an escape for faithful Catholics, so that they don't have to do the hard stuff, by helping their parishes grow more holy.

Those will help. But I don't think liturgy is a big nothingburger in this consideration either. I wish we could have gotten the liturgical reforms Vatican II spelled out instead of what we got. The old pre-Vatican II liturgy needed some work. What we ended up with broke some things that didn't need fixing in trying to fix a few things that did need fixing. It was not a very 'organic' reform.

I don't know what it would have been like, but I am a convert so I unlike you and Jim, I wasn't around when it was all Latin. But looking back, I do not think I could have converted if I could not have understood what was going on. Even with the Mass in English, it took me quite some time to grasp what was and was not going on. I do know talking to the old-timers at my parish, most of the say the exact same thing: "We finally were able to understand what was going on." I think that is important.

 

[Erose]

Are you sure about that? lol

I visited a very large Catholic Church Sunday, the largest in my area, that advertises itself as a "Catholic Community on Journey in the Tradition of the Second Vatican Council".

Mass is quite different there, than at a Latin Mass.

For openers, when the priest initially got to the altar, he looked out the congregation, greeted us all, and asked how everyone was doing? He welcomed us. Then ... on to the Mass ...

But the most interesting thing was watching this priest while the collection was being taken up:
A modern, lively song was being played and, while standing in front of the congregation, there he was clapping his hands joyfully and dancing.


lol ... This priest, their pastor, is from a country like Nigeria and continually smiles. So I am guessing he may be filled with the joy of the Lord. But it was so very different to see this going on in the front of the church, during the collection.

Leaving at the end of the Mass, the priest left the altar, took hold of a baby from within the congregation, and proceeded down the aisle joyfully with this baby in his arms. All the time, he is smiling.

You answered your point when you said the priest was from Africa. Our brethren there worship with so much joy, and yes they will dance at Mass. That is their charism, joy. Even though many of them live in countries where they don't know if that is going to be their last Mass or not, because martyrdom is high. They still come to Church with joy in their hearts and a love that is impressive. And guess what the highest Mass attendence numbers are in those countries, with some of them being over 90%.

Do you think there was alot of gaiety when the Mass was celebrated by the early Church?

Without a doubt.

 

[Bob Crowley]

As a former Protestant I have no interest in the Latin mass, although I sometimes day dream about learning the Latin language. I think anybody who thinks that reverting to the Latin mass will somehow revitalise the church is kidding themselves.

If the Church had still been in it's Vatican I mode, I very much doubt if I'd have crossed the Tiber.

The following link purports to give a demographic survey of the "Extraordinary Form of the Mass" which is the formal term for the Latin Mass as far as I'm aware -

The Demographics of the Extraordinary Form - Homiletic & Pastoral Review

The Foederatio Internationalis Una Voce (FIUV, or Una Voce International) recently submitted to the Holy See a report on the availability of the

www.hprweb.com

If you look at the areas where the Latin Mass is strongest it is in those areas which either have a European and particularly Latin or Mediterranean heritage - Southern Europe, South America and North America (which has a significant Latin population).

Asia and Africa don't have a high participation rate, yet the fastest growth in the Church today is non-Western, notably African and Asia.

In new Catholic numbers, an ‘imponderable’ movement shaping history

On a global level, Catholicism enjoyed the greatest expansion in its history over the past century, more than tripling from 267 million in 1900 to 1.045 billion in 2000 and 1.36 billion today.

cruxnow.com

Second, it’s notable that the vast majority of this growth is outside the western sphere. The Catholic population grew in Africa and Asia in 2020, by 2.1 percent and 1.8 percent respectively. The share of the world’s Catholics who live in Africa has been climbing steadily over recent decades. Africa alone shot up from 1.9 million in 1900 to 130 million in 2000 and an estimated 236 million today, representing almost twenty percent of the global total.

Catholicism, in other words, is already a non-western religion, at least at the grassroots, and it will be increasingly more so as time wears on. By the middle of this century, three-quarters of every Catholic man, woman and child will live outside the west. Trying to understand the church exclusively through the prism of western preoccupations and priorities, therefore, is a fool’s errand, yet it continues to be how most of us in the press cover the church.

These areas have virtually no history of the Latin Mass except when they were governed by Western powers, and by and large it wasn't the locals who would have attended the church back in those days.

If we think the Latin mass is the way to make the church grow, all we're doing is trying to go back to an idealised European tradition.

For myself I think God intends to driver us off the planet, and if that happens nobody will give two hoots about the Latin mass.

 

[Erose]

Catholics were leaving the Church back in the 70's and going to the Eastern Religions.

It's why Pope Paul VI asked the contemplative orders in the Church, like the Cistercians and Benedictines,
to begin dialog with the masters of the Eastern Religions in order to learn what was drawing young Catholics
to them. Thomas Merton was one of the monks who began that dialogue. What they learned quickly was that the young Catholics desired more of a contemplative prayer life. It was from there that monks started to teach about Lectio Divina and Meditation, which became known as Centering Prayer. This of course angered many trads and Contemplation was attacked as being New age, and Centering Prayer was banned from CAF for many years. The administrators finally got educated and lifted the ban.

I think a lot of that is fueled by the innate instinct of Christians who want to be faithful, that going to Mass isn't the only thing required for a spiritual life. The Catholic Church has an incredible history of spirituality that we modern folks don't have a clue about. I've been studying Ascetic and Mystical theology a great deal lately, and to be honest my initial reaction is that I've been robbed. I've been robbed of a powerful tool in my journey to being perfect in Christ and grow earnestly in Him. I've been a Catholic for over 30 years now, and I feel like I'm just starting my true journey.

Concerning centering prayer though, I think one has to be careful here, because it is an attempt to jump the gun, skipping steps in our journey can be dangerous. Mental prayer or active mediation should be the beginning.