Missing pages from one's bible

[bbbbbbb]

For example, there is a Catholic Church of the Maronite rite in Minneapolis. On their webpage they list their address as:

St Maron Maronite Catholic Church
600 University Ave. NE
Minneapolis, MN. 55413
That is a shorter version of saying "Catholic Church of the Maronite rite." A "rite" is not the same as a language, please quite misinforming people about the Catholic religion.

As I have said, I do not doubt that such churches exist and their various rites are recognized by Rome. They are, however, a miniscule minority within the vast sea of Latin rite (aka Roman) Catholic churches.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I’m going to break this out into chunks, because there is a lot to unpack.

This is a Protestant construction. Catholics don’t speak like this, because well some of the writings were written in this period. Also, one other things, there is a lot that all Christians have maintained from the Jewish Traditions. Much of our doctrines are also originally Jewish doctrines, why? Well because all of Scripture is written by Hebrews, and our Lord and His Apostles and most of the leaders of the first century were Jews.
They aren’t? How do you know? Were you there? Our faith says that yes Christ taught the Apostles and the Apostles His Church. All of these Commandments from our Lord we still do. Prayer for the Dead for example predates Christianity, and evidence from the earliest Christians shows that they did not do away with this practice. And by the way Jews even today pray for their dead, along with the majority of Christians.

On this part I agree. This is why Protestants do not have a leg to stand on, proposing that the canon of the OT was already fixed prior to Christ.

Jamnia is not hotly debated. It did not happen. That is just historical fact, no matter what Protestant history books claim.

This really isn’t true. 1) From the historical record it seems that the Jews were figuring out their canon about the same time as the Christians. 2) The Jews have a pretty fluid view of Scripture, from what I have read. The Talmud and Haggadah for sure are considered Sacred writings. The Mishnah and Kabbalah are also viewed as such as well, with at least some sects of Jews.

Now concerning the Masoretic texts, which are the texts every single Protestant Bible translates their OT from with some variations, and now sadly modern Catholic Bibles, is actually a Jewish revision of the Hebrew texts somewhere between the 7th and 10th centuries. Oddly enough the Vulgate is an earlier witness to the Hebrew texts than the Masoretic texts.

The Ethiopian Church seems to have grown in obscurity for the most part. Don’t think there is any evidence that they were represented at any of the Ecumenical Councils, so there is some question of how much interaction there was between that Church and the rest of Christendom. So, their OT texts come from the Ethiopian Jewish Bible, and not the LXX or Hebrew.

Thank you. I hesitated before making general statements about Judaism, realizing the general statements about any religion are prone to criticism because of the lack of uniformity within the religion. Thus, it is erroneous to assert things such as "all Christians practice foot washing as a sacrament" when, in fact, all Christians do not, but some do. With the Jews there is a solid concensus concerning the canon of the Bible. If one wishes to purchase a Jewish Bible, one can be confident that it is uniform in its content, whether in Hebrew, English, or any other language. Judaism divides over other writings, as you have correctly pointed out, as well as the teaching of various revered rabbis. Thus was true, as I pointed out, in the first century. We have the witness of scripture to this reality where Paul studied under Gamiel and Gamiel's disciples became one of the strands of Jewish belief.

A similar thing is true of both the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church. They went their separate ways very early in the history of Christianity and, as a result, have been considered by many branches of Christianity to be pariahs, at best, and heretics, at worst, similar to the Nestorians who withered from being a major element of early Christianity to becoming a footnote in Christian history books.

As one has said, to the winner belongs the history. In the case of Christianity there has been no clear-cut winner when viewed objectively, although some branches such as yours claim the victory, as well as the right to present their view of the history. The simple thing is to berate and harrass differing branches hopefully into oblivion. As history has shown, neither the Ethiopian Orthodox Churches nor the Coptic Churches appear to be going away any time soon, nor the EOC or the various Protestant churches.

That leaves yet another means of addressing the problem, which is to convince the others of the correctness of your position so that they will submit and merge with you, confessing their heresies and errors. This, of course, has been a strategy attempted by virtually all branches of Christianity, not to mention non-Christian religions such as Islam. Without compelling incentives, it does not work.

If all else fails, just slaughter members of the other side, knowing that, as heretics, their doom has already been secured and it is merely a matter for you, as administrators of the justice of the Almighty, to rid the earth of this blight. We assuredly see this strategy actively being pursued within Islam today.

 

[Valletta]

concretecamper here at CF has made these assertions frequently. There are others, if you would like me to supply their names.

I haven't seen such a statement. Can you give us just one example?

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

The Ethiopian Church seems to have grown in obscurity for the most part. Don’t think there is any evidence that they were represented at any of the Ecumenical Councils, so there is some question of how much interaction there was between that Church and the rest of Christendom. So, their OT texts come from the Ethiopian Jewish Bible, and not the LXX or Hebrew.

They are part of the Oriental Orthodox community so they only recognize the first 3 Ecumenical Councils. It appears that a distinct Ethiopian church may have been organized in the 4th century. So they may have not been strongly represented in the early councils.

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bbbbbbb]

I haven't seen such a statement. Can you give us just one example?

I highly recommend that you visit his various posts, especially in his interactions with myself and others on various threads. I do not feel the need to satisfy your curiosity. In fact, if you read the posts of various other Catholic members here at CF you will find many statements which I am sure you will be to find to be at variance with your own understanding of your church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

They are part of the Oriental Orthodox community so they only recognize the first 3 Ecumenical Councils. It appears that a distinct Ethiopian church may have been organized in the 4th century. So they may have not been strongly represented in the early councils.

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, that is quite true. Thank you.

 

[Valletta]

I highly recommend that you visit his various posts, especially in his interactions with myself and others on various threads. I do not feel the need to satisfy your curiosity. In fact, if you read the posts of various other Catholic members here at CF you will find many statements which I am sure you will be to find to be at variance with your own understanding of your church.

You can't even give one example??? Yet you seem to have a lot of time to put out false information about Catholics. How about answering the other questions I have posed to you in the last few days? I am aware of your tactics, you put out an outrageously false post about Catholics and when caught deflect, ignore, or go into an explanation of what the point supposedly was or what you really meant. For example, you said: "Interestingly, it was the Roman Catholic Church which came up with the concept of propaganda." What was your source for that information? As to your latest claim about what others have allegedly said, it's not a matter of satisfying my "curiosity," you are simply being called out on yet another one of your claims about Catholics.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The basic thought is that, although there are divergent voices in the Catholic Church

All Catholics share a single Catechism of the Catholic Church. Yet a billion and more people cannot be conceived of as having exactly one opinion on all matters.

 

[Erose]

They are part of the Oriental Orthodox community so they only recognize the first 3 Ecumenical Councils. It appears that a distinct Ethiopian church may have been organized in the 4th century. So they may have not been strongly represented in the early councils.

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would not be surprised, and I have not fully studied this, that Alexandria sent missionaries south and discovered a vibrant Christian community there. If I remember correctly, I believe that our Ethiopian brothers claim that the Eunuch converted by Philip is the founder of their Church. But I could be wrong.

 

[Erose]

With the Jews there is a solid concensus concerning the canon of the Bible.

In a sense they do now, but historically it seems that this really didn't happen for the Tanakh until somewhere in the 4th to 6th century.

Thus was true, as I pointed out, in the first century. We have the witness of scripture to this reality where Paul studied under Gamiel and Gamiel's disciples became one of the strands of Jewish belief.

Your right definitely not in the 1st century, and it seems that it didn't happen until sometime between the 4th and 6th centuries maybe. This process for them was even less documented than the Christian one.

A similar thing is true of both the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church. They went their separate ways very early in the history of Christianity and, as a result, have been considered by many branches of Christianity to be pariahs, at best, and heretics, at worst, similar to the Nestorians who withered from being a major element of early Christianity to becoming a footnote in Christian history books.

Not the Coptics. Coptics were knee deep in the general history of the Church from the get-go. That didn't change until well when Muslims took over North Africa and suppressed the Coptic Church.

Ethiopia is unique, much like the Indian Church. Both were separated from the main body of Christians in the Roman Empire, and as such they really are very interesting subjects, especially considering that the Indian Church when rediscovered during the Age of Exploration.

As one has said, to the winner belongs the history. In the case of Christianity there has been no clear-cut winner when viewed objectively, although some branches such as yours claim the victory, as well as the right to present their view of the history. The simple thing is to berate and harrass differing branches hopefully into oblivion. As history has shown, neither the Ethiopian Orthodox Churches nor the Coptic Churches appear to be going away any time soon, nor the EOC or the various Protestant churches.

Well hopefully none of the Particular Apostolic Churches go away. I do not pray, and I think it is wrong to do so, for the conversion of any of the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox Churches to convert to Catholicism. There is nothing to convert. They are already Catholics. All members of the Apostolic churches are Catholics. No, the right prayer to make is for the horrible schisms to end, and we enter back into full communion with each other, as Christ would have us.

Concerning Protestants? Yes I do pray for your return to the fullness of faith. Not conversion, because I believe that occurs when one goes from following Satan and the world to following Christ and His Father. This faithful Protestants have already done.

But concerning history, Christ has already won. He won 2000 years ago, and those of us who follow Him and persevere to the end have won as well, no matter what the world throws at us.

The Catholic Church in communion with the Pope is very unique in history, in that there was at one time a whole continent that was Catholic, and devout Catholic at that, so we have been able in a sense blossom in our knowledge and faith to a level no other Particular Church has been able to do. We have also been able to grow not just internally but also externally more than any other Apostolic Church.

Why? Because nearly all the other Particular Churches (Russian and Greek being the only exceptions I can think of), such as the Greek, Coptic, Antiochian, etc, have lived now most of their history being suppressed by Islam. You think about that just for a second, the Patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch have been under Muslim rule for about 1200 years, the Greek Christians under their rule over 500 years! Not being able to grow externally, due to that suppression, and their believers having every incentive in the world to convert to Islam; it is a miracle by God that they have maintained their existences until today!

That leaves yet another means of addressing the problem, which is to convince the others of the correctness of your position so that they will submit and merge with you, confessing their heresies and errors. This, of course, has been a strategy attempted by virtually all branches of Christianity, not to mention non-Christian religions such as Islam. Without compelling incentives, it does not work.

I follow Catholic teaching on this matter. It is our jobs to be God's instruments and proclaim the good news; but only God can give anyone the grace to convert to Him; and only God can give someone the grace to swim the Tiber to enter the fullness of His faith.

If all else fails, just slaughter members of the other side, knowing that, as heretics, their doom has already been secured and it is merely a matter for you, as administrators of the justice of the Almighty, to rid the earth of this blight. We assuredly see this strategy actively being pursued within Islam today.

Yeah, this has always failed, because those doing the slaughtering are not doing so for godly reasons ever.

 

[bbbbbbb]

All Catholics share a single Catechism of the Catholic Church. Yet a billion and more people cannot be conceived of as having exactly one opinion on all matters.

I agree entirely with you. Thus, the concept of unity must, perforce, diverge from the concept of uniformity. All religions, including the various branches of Christianity do experience varying degrees of unity, but none can honestly affirm uniformity among its members except, possibly, a religion containing only one individual.

 

[Erose]

Thank you for your excellent reply. Although I am hardly interested in taking a dip in the sewer of Rome, I assuredly respect all members of the various branches of our shared faith in Jesus Christ.

Just remember that every house has a sewer.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Although I am hardly interested in taking a dip in the sewer of Rome

One is saddened to see such a comment.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I agree entirely with you. Thus, the concept of unity must, perforce, diverge from the concept of uniformity. All religions, including the various branches of Christianity do experience varying degrees of unity, but none can honestly affirm uniformity among its members except, possibly, a religion containing only one individual.

And I disagree with myself at times.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Just remember that every house has a sewer.

Those that do not (and sewers were not widely in use prior to the Industrial Revolution) relied on privies, which are even nastier than sewers. So, on a relative basis, it is much better to have a sewer than to not have a sewer and yes, IMO, there are too many (religious) houses that lack sewers.

 

[bbbbbbb]

And I disagree with myself at times.

View attachment 330867

Thanks! I loved the Madness meme!

 

[The Liturgist]

They are part of the Oriental Orthodox community so they only recognize the first 3 Ecumenical Councils. It appears that a distinct Ethiopian church may have been organized in the 4th century. So they may have not been strongly represented in the early councils.

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They were either the fourth or fifth country to convert to Christianity, around the same time as Kartveli (Georgia, effectively). There was a strong Syriac influence on the Ethiopian church despite it being a part of the Patriarch of Alexandria, and this can be ascertained by the Antiochene style anaphorae, and the church’s own history of itself, which documents seven Syrian sages who helped establish the worship of the Ethiopian church.

 

[Valletta]

One is saddened to see such a comment.

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing. These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics “adore statues”; because they “put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God”; because they say “indulgence is a permission to commit sin”; because the Pope “is a Fascist”; because the “Church is the defender of Capitalism.” If the Church taught or believed any one of these things it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do."
Bishop Fulton Sheen

 

[The Liturgist]

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing. These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics “adore statues”; because they “put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God”; because they say “indulgence is a permission to commit sin”; because the Pope “is a Fascist”; because the “Church is the defender of Capitalism.” If the Church taught or believed any one of these things it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do."
Bishop Fulton Sheen

Indeed, it is tragic that anti-Catholicism is among the last acceptable prejudices. And indeed increasingly the other traditional churches are being lumped together with Catholics in this regard, in that it did not escape the attention of the secularists and modernists that the SBC, LCMS and the Orthodox Church were in lockstep with the RCC in the successful decades-long struggle against Roe v. Wade.

Interestingly one Reformed Protestant who did not hate Catholics was the late Rev. Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral, which is now Christ Cathedral, the cathedral church of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange County. He did at least one episode with Archbishop Fulton Sheen.*

*I thought he was an Archbishop, at any rate.

Archbishop Fulton, Rev. Schuller and the late Dr. James Kennedy are my three favorite televangelists, for their orthodoxy, and after the repose of Pope St. John Paul II, I think Dr. Kennedy was the foremost Western moral theologian, and upon his repose that title, in my view, went to Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal ( by the way, I really hope he is canonized) and after his resignation, Dr. Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Convention has been the leading Western moral theologian.

During this timeframe, some of the leading English speaking Eastern moral theologians have been Fr. Seraphim Rose, Pope Shenouda II, and presently Fr. Josiah Trenham and Fr. John Whiteford.

 

[Valletta]

Indeed, it is tragic that anti-Catholicism is among the last acceptable prejudices. And indeed increasingly the other traditional churches are being lumped together with Catholics in this regard, in that it did not escape the attention of the secularists and modernists that the SBC, LCMS and the Orthodox Church were in lockstep with the RCC in the successful decades-long struggle against Roe v. Wade.

Interestingly one Reformed Protestant who did not hate Catholics was the late Rev. Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral, which is now Christ Cathedral, the cathedral church of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange County. He did at least one episode with Archbishop Fulton Sheen.*

*I thought he was an Archbishop, at any rate.

Archbishop Fulton, Rev. Schuller and the late Dr. James Kennedy are my three favorite televangelists, for their orthodoxy, and after the repose of Pope St. John Paul II, I think Dr. Kennedy was the foremost Western moral theologian, and upon his repose that title, in my view, went to Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal ( by the way, I really hope he is canonized) and after his resignation, Dr. Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Convention has been the leading Western moral theologian.

During this timeframe, some of the leading English speaking Eastern moral theologians have been Fr. Seraphim Rose, Pope Shenouda II, and presently Fr. Josiah Trenham and Fr. John Whiteford.

Certainly the Catholic Church is a big target because of pro-life. But so many of the fake or greatly embellished anti-Catholic stories seem to survive for centuries no matter how many times refuted. We are all on a journey and we share so much, it would be much better to discuss how to combat Satan.