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WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SATURDAY

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BobRyan

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Not true, I just chose to answer parts of your post separately.

They may look like side notes to you, but they are actually key points.

Not true again, I have said much more than that.

If you want to quote what I say, why not just actually quote what I say?

Because that isn't all that I've given you so far :)
as I said the substance is missing -- address the points with support for your claims/accusations etc.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, an example of a difference would be drinking to excess. It's not prohibited in the law of Moses, but it's an example of being out of control.
It is addressed the same as suicide or any other self-harming activity. Paul points this out in 1 Cor 3 -

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

you seem to be "reaching" and not finding.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Cool! Then an example of something that wouldn't be breaking the law of Moses, but would be being out of control.
Yes it would as I explained...
 
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BobRyan

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Since Jesus was sinless, He never broke God's laws. Hence, He could not have broken the Sabbath. 1 Peter 2:22

Scripture states that Jesus kept the Sabbath faithfully, as God intended it to be kept. In doing so, He set us an example. "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" 1 John 2:6.

There is nothing wrong with eating food on the Sabbath. Eating food is not work (ie they were not harvesting), eating food is a human and animal necessity.

Point ... Jesus was sinless .... if not .... He could not be our savior.

Walk as He walked ..... Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath.

No where in His Word does it state otherwise .... even in His death .... Jesus rested in the tomb ... and also His followers waited until the Sabbath was over to prepare His body (of which never happened because He rose from the grave)
Very good points. We can all see it.
 
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BobRyan

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Scripture never states that Jesus kept the Sabbath faithfully
Scripture never says "Moses kept the Sabbath faithfully"
Scripture never says "Moses honored his mother and father faithfully"

That sort of dodge has no end to it.

No wonder almost all Christian denominations do not engage in that sort of thing.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" -- ALL Ten

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I agree with Paul here:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [m]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [n]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Even without this text, which makes it clear that sin is an issue apart from the Law of Moses, it is really rather otherwise obvious that sin exists in the absence of the Law of Moses. Every non-Jew who has ever drawn breath is not under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses. It seems to me that your position on this would lead to a conclusion that none of them are sinners since, if I understand you correctly, sin only exists in relation to the Law of Moses.
The law is NOT just the law given at Sinai lol. No I NEVER said sin only exists in relation to the law of Moses...It is God's law, not the law of Moses. Adam broke the law in Gan Eden and he was not a Jew...
 
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BobRyan

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, you are forced to accept the proposition that if Jesus, as God, retires the Law of Moses, then He (Jesus) can work all He wants on the Sabbath and not be sinning!
scripture says "tempted in all points as we are yet without sin" Heb 4:15

Your proposal is a form of "scripture turned to mush" by adding idea that "yes without sin because as God he can omit the law from applying to himself and can break all of it and still call it - without sin in Heb 4:15". That sort of imaginary scripture-to-mush argument may be entertaining for some but it does not hold water in the case of most Bible students.

It is an example of weak argument that Bible scholars never use.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" -- ALL Ten
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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An example of where nomos is probably used to mean something more like principle:
Romans 3:27
Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
It says LAW...WORKS...
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Actually, no. Paul specifically refers to food and drink and feasts earlier. The concept of sabbath was any day of rest, not just the one on the 7th day.
Where in scripture does the Sabbath commandment say it was any day of rest? I see there is no scripture that supports this and God was very clear when He wrote and spoke His commandments, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the Lord thy God Exodus 20:10 Genesis 2:1-3
This is plainly evident in the Gospels where the sabbaths are talked about during the crucifixion narrative. Only John makes a point to call out the sabbath before the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That is why the majority of the Western Church believes the crucifixion happened on a Friday. They are ignorant about the sabbaths during the prescribed Feast days.
And we can be absolutely sure of this because Paul uses the plural "sabbaths", not "the Sabbath". Many English versions neglect to translate it as a plural. However, because it is plural, Paul is not just talking about the weekly Sabbath but also includes all sabbaths in the Feast Days.
Col 2:16 does not say the Sabbath commandment and if one were to examine this passage and the entire bible it would become plainly obvious its not referring to the Sabbath commandment.

Let’s examine the context which sabbath is being referred to in Col 2:4-17.

Lets bring back context….

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

From this scripture, we know the sabbath(s) being referred to is an ordinance, it is contrary and it is handwritten.

This shows clearly the context of which sabbath its referring to…

The weekly Sabbath is a commandment of God, Exodus 20 it was written by the finger of God Exodus 32:16 not handwritten and it is not contrary it is holy and blessed by God Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11. Once God blesses something like He did the seventh day Sabbath commandment, it can’t be reversed. Num 23:20

The annual sabbath(s) was handwritten by Moses 2 Chronicles 33:8, is an ordinance. Exodus 12:17 Exodus 12:43,

Sadly people plow through the context despite it not fitting and insert their will into God’s will for His children. We should delight to do God’s will and God’s will is that we obey Him though love and faith. Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 8:10 1 John 5:3 Exodus 20:6, John 14:15 Romans 3:31. There is no scripture that says we can break God’s commandments, instead we see it is a fruit of a saved person Revelation 14:12

The Sabbath commandment did not end at the cross and Jesus in His own words expected His people to be keeping the Sabbath long after He ascended back to Heaven Matthew 24:20, the Sabbath being kept by His disciples decades after the cross Acts 18:4 and the Sabbath worship continues for His saints for eternity. Isaiah 66:23

God said we cannot add or subtract from His commandments Deut 4:2 and the author of Hebrews is not teaching against God’s Word.
 
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BobRyan

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XIX

Concerning His kingly office, Christ being risen from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and having all power in heaven and earth, He doth spiritually govern His church, and doth exercise His power over all, angels and men, good and bad, to the preservation and salvation of the elect, and to the overruling and destruction of His enemies. By this kingly power He applieth the benefits, virtue, and fruits of His prophecy and priesthood to His elect, subduing their sins, preserving and strengthening them in all their conflicts against Satan, the world, and the flesh, keeping their hearts in faith and filial fear by His Spirit: By this His mighty power He ruleth the vessels of wrath, using, limiting and restraining them, as it seems good to His infinite wisdom.

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

The Baptist Confession of Faith 1689: (Revised by C.H, Spurgeon in 19th century)

As for the Baptist position on the Ten Commandments :

"Section 19. The Law of God

  • God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
  • The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
  • Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
  • To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
  • The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
  • Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
  • The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done."
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Where in scripture does the Sabbath commandment say it was any day of rest? I see there is no scripture that supports this and God was very clear when He wrote and spoke His commandments, the Sabbath is the seventh day Exodus 20:10 Genesis 2:1-3

Col 2:16 does not say the Sabbath commandment and if one were to examine this passage and the entire bible it would become plainly obvious its not referring to the Sabbath commandment.
Yes, there is a sabbath on every 7th day of the week. "but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates." Exodus 20:10

Lev 23:3 gives further detail: "“Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places."
Exodus 12:16 is one of the places God talks about the additional sabbaths for the feast days - again no work and an assembly. "On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you."

Sabbath and "sabbath commandment". Same thing. No difference. You are trying to make something where there is no distinction.
 
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trophy33

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The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

The Baptist Confession of Faith 1689: (Revised by C.H, Spurgeon in 19th century)

As for the Baptist position on the Ten Commandments :

"Section 19. The Law of God

  • God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
  • The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
  • Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
  • To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
  • The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
  • Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
  • The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done."
You can present reformed (Helvetic) and Lutheran (Augsburg) teachings, too.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, there is a sabbath on every 7th day of the week. "but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates." Exodus 20:10

Lev 23:3 gives further detail: "“Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places."
Exodus 12:16 is one of the places God talks about the additional sabbaths for the feast days - again no work and an assembly. "On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you."

Sabbath and "sabbath commandment". Same thing. No difference. You are trying to make something where there is no distinction.
I think the point of the post you are responding to was that -- the Sabbath is not "any" day of rest but rather is THE SEVENTH day as a day of rest.
 
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BobRyan

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You can present reformed (Helvetic) and Lutheran (Augsburg) teachings, too.
"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments."

—Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, par. 9.


"They [Roman Catholics] allege the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue [the ten commandments]; and they have no example more in their mouths than they change of the Sabbath. They will needs have the Church's power to be very great, because it hath dispensed with the precept of the Decalogue."

—The Augsburg Confession, 1530 A.D. (Lutheran), part 2, art 7, in Philip Schaff, the Creeds of Christiandom, 4th Edition, vol 3, p64 [this important statement was made by the Lutherans and written by Melanchthon, only thirteen years after Luther nailed his theses to the door and began the Reformation].
 
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trophy33

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"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments."

—Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, par. 9.


"They [Roman Catholics] allege the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue [the ten commandments]; and they have no example more in their mouths than they change of the Sabbath. They will needs have the Church's power to be very great, because it hath dispensed with the precept of the Decalogue."

—The Augsburg Confession, 1530 A.D. (Lutheran), part 2, art 7, in Philip Schaff, the Creeds of Christiandom, 4th Edition, vol 3, p64 [this important statement was made by the Lutherans and written by Melanchthon, only thirteen years after Luther nailed his theses to the door and began the Reformation].
I think you misunderstood the context. Luther is not saying that we should keep Sabbath, he criticizes the RCC that they created another Sabbath - Sunday, which goes against Christian freedom.

"But concerning this question it is taught on our part (as has been shown above) that bishops have no power to decree anything against the Gospel. ...
...Again, the authors of traditions do contrary to the command of God when they find matters of sin in foods, in days, and like things, and burden the Church with bondage of the law...
...Scripture has abrogated the Sabbath-day; for it teaches that, since the Gospel has been revealed, all the ceremonies of Moses can be omitted."

 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes, there is a sabbath on every 7th day of the week. "but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates." Exodus 20:10
Yes, God said the Sabbath is the seventh day,. We are not to do work on the Sabbath day as it is the day of rest and to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 God gives us six days to do all thy work and labors Exodus 20:9 and only asks for one day back to honor Him and keep holy Exodus 20:8 Isaiah 58:13
Lev 23:3 gives further detail: "“Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places."

Yes again, this is referring to the seventh day Sabbath, it is the day of rest, a holy convocation (assembly- coming together)
Exodus 12:16 is one of the places God talks about the additional sabbaths for the feast days - again no work and an assembly. "On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you."
Yes, there are 7 different annual feast days called sabbath(s) these feast days were added after the fall of man and all point to Jesus who became our sacrifice for sin which is why they are fulfilled in Christ and ended Col 2:14 We not longer sacrifice animals Heb 10:1-10 because the blood of Jesus is all that is needed to forgive sin. Sin is still breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to point out sin Romans 7:7
Sabbath and "sabbath commandment". Same thing. No difference. You are trying to make something where there is no distinction.
Yes, there is only one Sabbath commandment which has nothing to do with food or drink Exodus 20:8-11, but its the day God set apart sanctified for holy use Genesis 2:1-3 the day to honor Him Isaiah 58:13 and to keep holy Exodus 20:8 and for worship for eternity Isaiah 66:23. The annual sabbath(s) are all about food and drink, are ordinances and were added after the fall of man when man broke God’s law.
 
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I think the point of the post you are responding to was that -- the Sabbath is not "any" day of rest but rather is THE SEVENTH day as a day of rest.
No I did mean "any day of rest". That is the definition of the what a sabbath is and how God has commanded a sabbath to be. God rested on the sabbath - that's the entire point of a sabbath. The 7th day is NOT the only kind of sabbath that God instituted. There are sabbaths commanded separately as part of the prescribed feast days that God instituted. They can occur on any day of the week. Not just the 7th day.
But if you arbitrarily say a particular day is going to be a sabbath, that is not according to God's commands. As He has only instituted sabbaths on the 7th day and during His appointed times (the feast days). So one can not call every Sunday as a sabbath.
But at the same time, the whole point of the Colossians passage is that Paul said that if you are in Christ, the elements of the Law (what to eat and drink, observing feast days, observing the sabbath) were imperfect elements that were completely fulfilled in Christ. Don't let others disturb you and say you absolutely still need to follow them.
 
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Yes, God said the Sabbath is the seventh day,. We are not to do work on the Sabbath day as it is the day of rest and to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 God gives us six days to do all thy work and labors Exodus 20:9 and only asks for one day back to honor Him and keep holy Exodus 20:8 Isaiah 58:13


Yes again, this is referring to the seventh day Sabbath, it is the day of rest, a holy convocation (assembly- coming together)

Yes, there are 7 different annual feast days called sabbath(s) these feast days were added after the fall of man and all point to Jesus who became our sacrifice for sin which is why they are fulfilled in Christ and ended Col 2:14 We not longer sacrifice animals Heb 10:1-10 because the blood of Jesus is all that is needed to forgive sin. Sin is still breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to point out sin Romans 7:7

Yes, there is only one Sabbath commandment which has nothing to do with food or drink Exodus 20:8-11, but its the day God set apart sanctified for holy use Genesis 2:1-3 the day to honor Him Isaiah 58:13 and to keep holy Exodus 20:8 and for worship for eternity Isaiah 66:23. The annual sabbath(s) are all about food and drink, are ordinances and were added after the fall of man when man broke God’s law.
Now I have totally lost what you were originally trying to say. You seem to agree with everything that I have written and given evidence from the Bible. I guess there is no issue after all.
 
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BobRyan

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No I did mean "any day of rest". That is the definition of the what a sabbath is
In Ex 20 it does not say "any day" it says "the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD".
In Ex 16 it says "tomorrow IS the Sabbath"
For 40 years -- no manna fell on that exact 7th day.

Where do you get that the weekly Sabbath is a command to pick any day in 7??

God rested on the sabbath - that's the entire point of a sabbath. The 7th day is NOT the only kind of sabbath that God instituted.
Agreed - there were other Sabbaths - the the title of this thread pertains to the Lord's day and Saturday the 7th day of the week.
There are sabbaths commanded separately as part of the prescribed feast days that God instituted.
Agreed Lev gives a list of annual Sabbaths.
They can occur on any day of the week.
Agreed in the case of the annual Sabbaths.
But if you arbitrarily say a particular day is going to be a sabbath, that is not according to God's commands.
IT is in accordance with Gen 2:1-3, Ex 20:10, Ex 20:11 and numerous other texts related to the weekly Sabbath.
So one can not call every Sunday as a sabbath.
Agreed.
But at the same time, the whole point of the Colossians passage is that Paul said that if you are in Christ, the elements of the Law (what to eat and drink, observing feast days, observing the sabbath) were imperfect elements that were completely fulfilled in Christ.
he said that all those ceremonial animal-sacrifice based laws were shadows pointing to Christ. But the weekly Sabbath in Gen 2:1-3 and referenced in Ex 20:11 as the Gen 2:1-3 event - was before all of that.

It is for all mankind Is 66:23 and is kept for all eternity even after the cross in the New Earth according to that text regarding the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before me to worship"

Col 2 merely uses the same pre-cross rule as Matt 7 "do not judge that you be not judged" . It does not delete scripture or make it void.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Now I have totally lost what you were originally trying to say. You seem to agree with everything that I have written and given evidence from the Bible. I guess there is no issue after all.
There are more than one Sabbath in the Bible, there is the weekly seventh day Sabbath that started from creation Genesis 2:1-3 and it is God’s holy day that He said in His own words Isaiah 58:13, and the day He commanded us to keep holy Exodus 20:8 as we are made in His image to follow Him, not to do something different. The other sabbath(s) are ordinances, not a commandment, are about food and drink offerings and point to Jesus who became our sacrifice for sins. The Sabbath commandment is part of God’s eternal law Revelation 11:19 and kept through love and faith Revelation 14:12, Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3. If this is what you are saying than we are in agreement.
 
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