• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Devalue of the U.S. dollar...

Soul_Tsunami

Active Member
Mar 7, 2023
103
24
62
Gilbert
✟21,999.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
"This is one of the issues that will come back to bite those who believe in a pre-trib rapture. First, those who believe in this doctrine will not be prepared to exist in the world that is coming. Second, some may lose their faith. Suddenly the anti-christ will come on the scene and many will be greatly troubled. Hence Paul's warning in 2 Thess 2 about being not being deceived about this." Not here to debate the rapture, but don't think we will not be here to see the turmoil that is coming. We will be right here smack dab in the middle of it so be wise and plan for it.
See my signature.
I think it would be wise to actually study the pre-tribulation rapture as it's mentioned in the bible and not just throw the subject out there and not want to discuss or debate the topic.

Just one example:

Revelation 3:10

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
 
Upvote 0

Soul_Tsunami

Active Member
Mar 7, 2023
103
24
62
Gilbert
✟21,999.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Yes, THAT will be the ultimate reset but not the one in the works now :). As for any hint of rapture, those that pledge allegiance to nation over Kingdom and involve themselves in the politics of man, especially as bystander, will find they 've missed the boat.
Your post is confusing to me...The reset I'm talking about is the same one you are talking about...They are one and the same. The Antichrist is already on the scene but, he has not been revealed yet to the world.
 
Upvote 0

iarwain

Newbie
Feb 13, 2009
883
527
✟150,216.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I was thinking about this today, the end of the petro dollar, and China usurping us as the primary super power. I can't help but notice this comes at a time when more people in the US are moving away from God and from Judeo-Christian values. Seems quite possible that God is removing our high station as punishment. Wish I could say that we didn't deserve it.
 
Upvote 0

Arcangl86

Newbie
Dec 29, 2013
12,112
8,362
✟415,401.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
I was thinking about this today, the end of the petro dollar, and China usurping us as the primary super power. I can't help but notice this comes at a time when more people in the US are moving away from God and from Judeo-Christian values. Seems quite possible that God is removing our high station as punishment. Wish I could say that we didn't deserve it.
God is punishing us for people moving away from God and Christian values by elevating a country that actively persecutes Christians in our place?
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,789
9,320
up there
✟384,604.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Seems quite possible that God is removing our high station as punishment.
Consider that that so called high station is being given to a sinful nation, as no doubt it always has done., one conquering empire to the next. Feel blessed that it has moved on.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: HARK!
Upvote 0

iarwain

Newbie
Feb 13, 2009
883
527
✟150,216.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
God is punishing us for people moving away from God and Christian values by elevating a country that actively persecutes Christians in our place?
Didn't God do the same to Israel? God holds His people to a higher standard and disciplines them accordingly. When Israel started to fall away, God turned them over to pagan nations. What we are seeing now is the US, which was an imperfect but Christian country, now turning to depravity and placing their own knowledge about that of the Most High's.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,131
10,763
US
✟1,574,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I don't know if people are paying attention to what's happening in other parts of the world but Russia, China, and a few more are banding together and telling other countries who do business with them that they will no longer buy, sell, or trade with them using the U.S. dollar.

Once implemented this (IMO) will cause the U.S. stock market to crash. Any thoughts on this?
Ron Paul called it. Most laughed and dismissed him as a kook.

...and so History repeats itself. Another fiat currency moves toward its' intrinsic value, as another Empire that is built on it follows its' decline.

Maybe funding another war (You know, to "spread Democracy.") through inflation, can help the bankers squeeze a little more out of this ponzi scheme.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,131
10,763
US
✟1,574,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I was thinking about this today, the end of the petro dollar, and China usurping us as the primary super power.
Usurping? That's an interesting choice of words. Please explain.

It's not just China that wants to escape the hegemony of the U.S. dollar; it's BRICS+.
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,082
8,298
Frankston
Visit site
✟773,725.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I don't know if people are paying attention to what's happening in other parts of the world but Russia, China, and a few more are banding together and telling other countries who do business with them that they will no longer buy, sell, or trade with them using the U.S. dollar.

Once implemented this (IMO) will cause the U.S. stock market to crash. Any thoughts on this?
Also possible: The USD will devalue. US manufacturing will become more competitive and exports will improve. Imports will become more expensive and so buying local more attractive. Australia is very familiar with this cycle. What business values most is stability. Russia? Economic basket case. China? In trouble economically. Africa? Don't make me laugh.
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,082
8,298
Frankston
Visit site
✟773,725.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Usurping? That's an interesting choice of words. Please explain.

It's not just China that wants to escape the hegemony of the U.S. dollar; it's BRICS+.
A collection of oh so righteous nations......... I don't think. The world economy is heading for collapse, not just the US. It's built on a mountain of debt that is unsustainable in the log run.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,131
10,763
US
✟1,574,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
A collection of oh so righteous nations......... I don't think.
I'm not aware of any righteous nations other than Israel; and I'm not speaking of the geographic Israel.
The world economy is heading for collapse, not just the US. It's built on a mountain of debt that is unsustainable in the log run.
I read an article over a decade ago, about a city (I believe it was in Europe) that escaped the woes of The Great Depression by cohering to the principles of Austrian school of economics. I wish that I had saved this tidbit of historical trivia.

It appears that this is exactly what BRICS is setting out to do.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,131
10,763
US
✟1,574,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Some nations back their worth with gold, others with a printing press
Some with true wealth, some with debt.

(CLV) Pr 22:26
Do not be among those who clasp the palm in pledge, Among those who are surety for loans;


(CLV) Pr 22:27
If you have nothing to make a repayment, Why have your bed taken from under you?

I know, I know, the wisdom that YHWH gave Solomon was under the Old Covenant. That wisdom doesn't apply today. ;)
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,711
29,358
Pacific Northwest
✟820,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I think it would be wise to actually study the pre-tribulation rapture as it's mentioned in the bible and not just throw the subject out there and not want to discuss or debate the topic.

Just one example:

Revelation 3:10

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

So the Christians living in Philadelphia were raptured in the first century? Or they will live until the end times and then be raptured?

Revelation 3:10 is addressed to the Christians in Philadelphia, one of the seven churches to which the Apocalypse is addressed (Revelation 1:4), if you back up to verse 7 of chapter 3 you'll even see this, "To the angel of the Church in Philadelphia".

In the Apocalypse John addresses the entire work to its target audience, the seven churches in the Roman province of Asia. John begins by describing the visions he received while imprisoned on the island of Patmos, located off the coast near Asia. He describes the vision of Jesus he received, and Jesus then has seven messages to each of the seven churches, Revelation 3:7-13 is for the Philadelphians.

That's the context for this passage.

Now, I am aware of all manner of fanciful interpretations that exist here. Such as that the seven churches refer to seven "church ages" or that they refer to "seven types of churches". But there is precisely zero reason to hold to such an opinion. If we are going to read the Bible seriously, we can't just throw out good exegesis.

We don't get to just make up whatever we want and then claim that's what the Bible says. We take what the Bible says, the actual words of the text, and then we seek to understand what they mean in their context.

And the context is that Revelation 3:10 is said to Christians living in the city of Philadelphia sometime approximately around the year 95 AD, near the end of the reign of Emperor Domitian. We know that it was written around this time based mostly on external evidence, early Christian witness points to the Apocalypse being written during the reign of Domitian. Though in modern times some have conjectured both earlier and later dates, some have argued for a date as early as the time of Nero, and others as late as the reign of Trajan. But the majority opinion has always been that it was written during the time of Domitian as the ancient witness of the Church has suggested.

So what does Revleation 3:10, therefore, mean in that context?

That it refers to some time in the future where Jesus is going to take Christians out of the earth and beam them directly into heaven to escape a seven year period of tribulation is certainly no where to be found anywhere in the text, it's not what the text is talking about, and no where does the Bible even come close to talking about such a thing happening.

Dispensationalism, and its doctrine of a "Pretribulation Rapture" is a modern fiction concocted in the modern era and subscribed to by only a fringe minority of Christians; and while it was originally conceived by an Irish clergyman, it eventually gained the largest following in the United States due to a number of different factors.

But considering these things:

1) The Bible never mentions a "pretribulation rapture".
2) The Bible teaches that there will be a resurrection at Christ's Parousia, His appearing or "second coming" which is on the last day, at the end, etc.
3) Christians never believed in a "pretribulation rapture" at any point in history prior to the 1800's.

That doesn't give the idea much credence.

I say all this as someone who grew up believing in the pretribulation rapture, in fact I didn't even know there were other views until I was 18-19 years old. And the reason I stopped believing in it was because I tried to defend it, and when I started reading the Bible for myself, and looking at all the different proof texts I had been told taught it, it became increasingly more difficult to defend.

In fact, when I started to do a serious dive into Scripture I began to notice that Scripture seemed to teach something else entirely. But, naturally, I figured if I was the only one seeing what I was seeing, then I was almost certainly wrong. So imagine my surprise when, as I began to look to see what different denominations believed, and what was believed by the majority of Christians since ancient times, was exactly that thing I was now seeing for myself in the Bible.

Now, of course, it is entirely possible that all Christians were wrong until John Darby came up with the pre-tribulation rapture. It's possible that virtually all Christians are still wrong today. And that the Dispenationalist/Pre-tribulation Rapturists are actually right.

But the odds of that seem unlikely. Why don't we see a pretribulation rapture taught anywhere between the 1st century and the 19th century? Why is it that hundreds of millions of Christians, across denominational boundaries, all agree that Christ's return is to come as Judge of the living and the dead on the last day, and it is then that the dead shall be raised bodily?

Most importantly, why doesn't the Bible ever actually say that Jesus is going to remove the Church from the earth to escape a future tribulation? Why do advocates of the pre-tribulation rapture position rely entirely on a patchwork of verses that they then have to add their own spin and assumptions into?

What do I mean by "add their own spin and assumptions into"? Well, let's just take this verse here you've offered, Revelation 3:10. It doesn't mention anything about Jesus taking Christians out of the world to escape a future tribulation. What does it say? It says that they would be spared the hour of trial that will come upon the earth. That word there "keep", that's τηρήσω (tereso), the future active indicative first person singular form of the verb τηρέω (tereo), and it means "to guard", "to observe", "to watch", "to take care of", "to tend to".

It is a promise that Christ will remain firm and committed to them during that time of trial, He will guard them, stand watch over them, hold onto them. If they patiently endure and remain faithful to Him, He will hold onto them, keep them, guard over them as the Good Shepherd watches over His flock, and they shall not fall during that time of testing.

That's the plain meaning of Revelation 3:10.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
20,705
4,444
Midlands
Visit site
✟767,022.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So the Christians living in Philadelphia were raptured in the first century? Or they will live until the end times and then be raptured?

Revelation 3:10 is addressed to the Christians in Philadelphia, one of the seven churches to which the Apocalypse is addressed (Revelation 1:4), if you back up to verse 7 of chapter 3 you'll even see this, "To the angel of the Church in Philadelphia".

In the Apocalypse John addresses the entire work to its target audience, the seven churches in the Roman province of Asia. John begins by describing the visions he received while imprisoned on the island of Patmos, located off the coast near Asia. He describes the vision of Jesus he received, and Jesus then has seven messages to each of the seven churches, Revelation 3:7-13 is for the Philadelphians.

That's the context for this passage.

Now, I am aware of all manner of fanciful interpretations that exist here. Such as that the seven churches refer to seven "church ages" or that they refer to "seven types of churches". But there is precisely zero reason to hold to such an opinion. If we are going to read the Bible seriously, we can't just throw out good exegesis.

We don't get to just make up whatever we want and then claim that's what the Bible says. We take what the Bible says, the actual words of the text, and then we seek to understand what they mean in their context.

And the context is that Revelation 3:10 is said to Christians living in the city of Philadelphia sometime approximately around the year 95 AD, near the end of the reign of Emperor Domitian. We know that it was written around this time based mostly on external evidence, early Christian witness points to the Apocalypse being written during the reign of Domitian. Though in modern times some have conjectured both earlier and later dates, some have argued for a date as early as the time of Nero, and others as late as the reign of Trajan. But the majority opinion has always been that it was written during the time of Domitian as the ancient witness of the Church has suggested.

So what does Revleation 3:10, therefore, mean in that context?

That it refers to some time in the future where Jesus is going to take Christians out of the earth and beam them directly into heaven to escape a seven year period of tribulation is certainly no where to be found anywhere in the text, it's not what the text is talking about, and no where does the Bible even come close to talking about such a thing happening.

Dispensationalism, and its doctrine of a "Pretribulation Rapture" is a modern fiction concocted in the modern era and subscribed to by only a fringe minority of Christians; and while it was originally conceived by an Irish clergyman, it eventually gained the largest following in the United States due to a number of different factors.

But considering these things:

1) The Bible never mentions a "pretribulation rapture".
2) The Bible teaches that there will be a resurrection at Christ's Parousia, His appearing or "second coming" which is on the last day, at the end, etc.
3) Christians never believed in a "pretribulation rapture" at any point in history prior to the 1800's.

That doesn't give the idea much credence.

I say all this as someone who grew up believing in the pretribulation rapture, in fact I didn't even know there were other views until I was 18-19 years old. And the reason I stopped believing in it was because I tried to defend it, and when I started reading the Bible for myself, and looking at all the different proof texts I had been told taught it, it became increasingly more difficult to defend.

In fact, when I started to do a serious dive into Scripture I began to notice that Scripture seemed to teach something else entirely. But, naturally, I figured if I was the only one seeing what I was seeing, then I was almost certainly wrong. So imagine my surprise when, as I began to look to see what different denominations believed, and what was believed by the majority of Christians since ancient times, was exactly that thing I was now seeing for myself in the Bible.

Now, of course, it is entirely possible that all Christians were wrong until John Darby came up with the pre-tribulation rapture. It's possible that virtually all Christians are still wrong today. And that the Dispenationalist/Pre-tribulation Rapturists are actually right.

But the odds of that seem unlikely. Why don't we see a pretribulation rapture taught anywhere between the 1st century and the 19th century? Why is it that hundreds of millions of Christians, across denominational boundaries, all agree that Christ's return is to come as Judge of the living and the dead on the last day, and it is then that the dead shall be raised bodily?

Most importantly, why doesn't the Bible ever actually say that Jesus is going to remove the Church from the earth to escape a future tribulation? Why do advocates of the pre-tribulation rapture position rely entirely on a patchwork of verses that they then have to add their own spin and assumptions into?

What do I mean by "add their own spin and assumptions into"? Well, let's just take this verse here you've offered, Revelation 3:10. It doesn't mention anything about Jesus taking Christians out of the world to escape a future tribulation. What does it say? It says that they would be spared the hour of trial that will come upon the earth. That word there "keep", that's τηρήσω (tereso), the future active indicative first person singular form of the verb τηρέω (tereo), and it means "to guard", "to observe", "to watch", "to take care of", "to tend to".

It is a promise that Christ will remain firm and committed to them during that time of trial, He will guard them, stand watch over them, hold onto them. If they patiently endure and remain faithful to Him, He will hold onto them, keep them, guard over them as the Good Shepherd watches over His flock, and they shall not fall during that time of testing.

That's the plain meaning of Revelation 3:10.

-CryptoLutheran
I was saved in 1971, partially due to reading the pro-pre-trib rapture book "The Late Great Planet Earth." Also Larkin and Dakes. I never gave it much thought for years. Like many I just accepted it without question because that is what most of my favorite teachers, authors, churches, and friends believed. Songs like Larry Norman's "I wish we'd all be ready" was big during the Jesus movement of those days. The "Left Behind" series was just coming out. After about 7 years and a lot of Bible study it began to bother me. I ended up reading Jim McKeever's book "Christians will God Through the Tribulation." Everything sort of fell together and the obviousness of the pre-trib error became evident.
The controversy grew, and most students would simply say "doe's it really matter?" And I kind of ran with that attitude for years. While researching for and writing a book about the "Foundational Truths of the Word of God" based on Heb 5:11 - 6:8 I became convinced that it in fact does matter. Heb 6:1-3 lists the elementary teachings of the word of Christ. Verse 3 states that if we do not learn these basic teachings, then God may not permit us to proceed on to the mature teachings.

Hebrews 6:1 KJV. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 KJV. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hebrews 6:3 KJV. And this will we do, if God permit.

One of the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ is "resurrection of the dead." Failure to correctly establish this foundational truth may doom you to remaining in the baby food until you get it right. The timing of the resurrection of believers is elementary.
That is why it matters.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,789
9,320
up there
✟384,604.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
image.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: HARK!
Upvote 0