Purgatory

[Dan Perez]

Agreed.

And NOT ONE single scripture in your post that says that after one dies (who has already been fully forgiven by Christ - ) they are then subjected to punishment (torment pain and suffering more severe than anything that can be experienced in this life) -- to get cleaned up and then sent on their way to heaven.

And if we look at the key (salient) elements of purgatory - it does not appear that those key features are there either. For example:

1. You have the ability to suffer pain / torment while dead and while on your way to heaven.​

2. Once forgiven of a given sin by Christ - you have more "to pay" for that sin) after you die and before heaven.​

(Lets say for example that you promise someone you will study very hard to pass a test - but then you fail to study at all,, then you die before you take the test -- are you really going to fail the test in purgatory?? No Bible text says that such a system exists)​

3. The church has a spiritual bank of excess-suffering that it can draw upon to write checks that bail someone out of the tortures of purgatory​

Having admitted that it is not in the Bible - the next examples consistently show one method used to get it there -- "extreme inference".


A good example of a text that does not say that something bad happens to a person after they die.

1. It speaks of forgiveness not being granted for a sin committed in this life -- it says that it will not be forgiven in this life nor will it be forgiven in the age to come - it is not predicting that sins will be forgiven in the age to come.
2. Forgiveness of sin is not a torture that someone suffers nor would any person seek an indulgence to escape forgiveness.

The debt paid for sin is death Rom 6:23 - in fact it is called "the second death" in Rev 20 and is not a door way into heaven of any sort according to that chapter.

I read Rev 20:14 and the second DEATH and HELL were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE , This is the second DEATH and not Rom 6:23 !!

dan p

 

[BobRyan]

I read Rev 20:14 and the second DEATH and HELL were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE , This is the second DEATH and not Rom 6:23 !!

dan p

Rom 6:23 says the "wages of sin is death", Ezek 18 says only the wicked die, -- they are talking about what John calls - the second death

John 11 Jesus says the saints who believe on Christ never die - ... He says this in regard to the death of Lazarus. He is talking about the second death.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Augustine said in The City of God that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

 

[Dan Perez]

Augustine said in The City of God that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

I NEVER have heard of a Particular and a General and I read Luke 12:59 and it says about a anyone owing , money and has to every MITE before allowed to leave .

What does , by others after DEATH means ?

Just asking !!

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I NEVER have heard of a Particular and a General

When one dies a decision is made about one's state and this is called the particular judgement because it applies to the person and is made for the person at the moment of their death. And at the resurrection, on the last day, there is to be a general judgement which is described in Matthew 25:31-46.

I read Luke 12:59 and it says about a anyone owing , money and has to every MITE before allowed to leave .

Indeed it is about money, but it appears to be parabolic does it not? Or so Saint Augustine interpreted it and he saw a lesson in the passage, namely; that one's duty is to seek forgiveness and to make right the wrongs done to others in this world before the judge passes judgement upon you, because after the judgement there is no escape from the sentence until every thing owing is paid in full. And Saint Augustine applied that lesson to purgatory. I am inclined to think it has a relationship with what Paul writes 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.

What does , by others after DEATH means ?

It is one in a list of possibilities: "temporary punishments are suffered

1. by some in this life only,
2. by others after death,
3. by others both now and then"

 

[Dan Perez]

When one dies a decision is made about one's state and this is called the particular judgement because it applies to the person and is made for the person at the moment of their death. And at the resurrection, on the last day, there is to be a general judgement which is described in Matthew 25:31-46.

Indeed it is about money, but it appears to be parabolic does it not? Or so Saint Augustine interpreted it and he saw a lesson in the passage, namely; that one's duty is to seek forgiveness and to make right the wrongs done to others in this world before the judge passes judgement upon you, because after the judgement there is no escape from the sentence until every thing owing is paid in full. And Saint Augustine applied that lesson to purgatory. I am inclined to think it has a relationship with what Paul writes 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.

It is one in a list of possibilities: "temporary punishments are suffered

1. by some in this life only,
2. by others after death,
3. by others both now and then"

How about writing a verse for each of your 1-3 points ?

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

How about writing a verse for each of your 1-3 points ?

dan p

I was helping you with an explanation of St Augustine's statement. I wasn't intending to offer bible verses. So, I shall offer none. Why ought I give you verses, in your opinion?

 

[BobRyan]

Augustine said in The City of God that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

Luke 12 does not promise "heaven" to anyone that is judged worthy of punishment.

Luke 12​

45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.​

​

49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51 Do you think that I came to provide peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; ...​

​

57 “And why do you not even judge by yourselves what is right? 58 For when you are going with your accuser to appear before the magistrate, on the way, make an effort to settle with him, so that he does not drag you before the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out of there until you have paid up the very last lepton.”​

"The penalty for sin is death" Rom 6:23 --- not the first death alone (since both the righteous and the wicked pay the penalty of the first death) - but rather it is what John calls "the second death" in Rev 20. Punishment that is only for the wicked - not the saints.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Luke 12 does not promise "heaven" to anyone that is judged worthy of punishment.

The passage is a set of two parables.

• And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is. And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
• Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

Luke 12:54-59
Neither parable teaches anything directly because both are parables but both teach lessons. Saint Augustine points to 12:59 as teaching payment that comes to an end when the very last mite is paid. He associates it with purgatory. Whatever you may associate it with makes no difference to saint Augustine because he wrote 1,750 years ago. And back then purgatory was on his mind - a long long time ago.