The Lord never intended for denominations

[prodromos]

Lateran IV called for excommunication of heretics, and confiscation of their property by the state. This is a legitimate function of the state to maintain social order and to squelch unrest and rebellion. They did not call for the extermination of fellow Christians. Biblical support for such an action comes when we read, "turned his body over to Satan that he learn not to blaspheme"

Yep, Bob is either deliberately lying, or he is uncritically regurgitating something he read elsewhere. Either way, he is bearing false witness.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

The LATERAN IV command to exterminate fellow Christians - was an ecumenical council command

Which Canon of Lateran IV makes the above command?

I know you won't have a response as there is no such command.

Lateran IV's command to exterminate heretics, steal their property etc is a fact of history - period. No amount of slamming me can erase that fact as I am sure you already know.

NewAdvent Catholic Online Encyclopedia – regarding ecumenical councils like LATERAN IV

1. Ecumenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians. A council, Ecumenical in its convocation, may fail to secure the approbation of the whole Church or of the pope, and thus not rank in authority with Ecumenical councils. Such was the case with the Robber Synod of 449 (Latrocinium Ephesinum), the Synod of Pisa in 1409, and in part with the Councils of Constance and Basle. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: General Councils

Fordham –​

CANON 3​

​

Text. "We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith which we have above explained; condemning all heretics under whatever names they may be known, for while they have different faces they are nevertheless bound to each other by their tails, since in all of them vanity is a common element. Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues. But those who are only suspected, due consideration being given to the nature of the suspicion and the character of the person, unless they prove their innocence by a proper defense, let them be anathematized and avoided by all 1-intil they have made suitable satisfaction; but if they have been under excommunication for one year, then let them be condemned as heretics. Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land."​

​

​

Moneantur autem et inducantur et si necesse fuerit per censuram ecclesiasticam compellantur saeculares potestates, quibuscumque fungantur officiis, ut sicut reputari cupiunt et haberi fideles, it a pro defensione fidei praestent publice iuramentum, quod de terris suae iurisdictioni subiectis universos haereticos ab ecclesia denotatos bona fide pro viribus exterminare studebunt, ita quod amodo quandocumque quis fuerit in potestatem sive spiritualem sive temporalem assumptus, hoc teneatur capitulum iuramento firmare.​

Lateran IV called for excommunication of heretics, and confiscation of their property

True - yet inexplicably Prodromos apparently views that as being some sort of "secret from me" even though I keep reminding readers of this thread that the extermination statements are right there for all to see and Catholic sources cannot be "blamed on me".

Long live the "inquisition"??

Yep, Bob is either deliberately lying, or he is uncritically regurgitating something he read elsewhere. Either way, he is bearing false witness.

Another example of no fact being listed - just a slamming of the one who dared post.
I guess that solution is of the form "just ignore all those direct quotes -- and try and imagine this... is what you see"

 

[BobRyan]

Related to the above decree in Canon 3 of LATERAN IV
We have the forever extermination of the Jesuit order
with "forever" lasting 150 years starting in 1776 AD and ending in 1926 AD.
===========================================================

Dominus ac Redemptor Noster

Bull of Pope Clement XIV demanding and ordering that the Jesuit order be permanently abolished.

It ends like this -

========================================

"we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power...(command goes here),
...

" Further, we do ordain, that after the publication of this our letter, no person do presume to suspend the execution thereof, under colour, title, or pretence of any action, appeal, relief, explanation of doubts which may arise, or any other pretext whatever, foreseen or not foreseen. ...
...
For all this notwithstanding, our will and pleasure is, that these our letters should forever and to all eternity be valid, permanent, and efficacious, have and obtain their full force and effect, and be inviolably observed by all and every whom they do or may concern, now or hereafter, in any manner whatever.

in the present case, we are determining upon the fate of a society classed among the mendicant orders, both by its institute and by its privileges; after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY: we deprive it of all activity whatever

" In like manner, and not otherwise, we ordain that all the matters here above specified, and every of them, shall be carried into execution by the ordinary judge and delegate; whether by the auditor, cardinal, legate a latere, nuncio, or any other person who has, or ought to have, authority or jurisdiction in any matter or suits, taking from all and every of them all power of interpreting these our letters. And this to be executed, notwithstanding all constitutions, privileges, apostolic commands, &c. &c. &c. ...

"Lastly, our will and pleasure is, that to all copies of the present Brief, signed by a notary public, and sealed by some dignitary of the Church, the same force and credit shall be given as to this original. Given at Rome, at St Mary the Greater, under the seal of the Fisherman, the
21st day of July 1773, in the fifth year
of our Pontificate."

WELCOME TO THE REFORMATION ONLINE—THE MOST TIMELY, TRUTHFUL, AND NUMERICAL SITE ON THE INTERNET!

And among the reasons for abolishing forever the Jesuit order as listed by Pope Clement in the case above is their "inhumane" (to use Francis' words) treatment of humans under the inquisition in France.

 

[BobRyan]

Clement discusses events leading up to this abolishing of the Jesuit order.

• (The "inquisitors" of Philip's kingom in Spain were the Dominicans)
• The term "The Society" was shorthand for "Society of Jesus", or "Company of Jesus" (Jesuits)

"Among the princes who have thus appealed, is Philip II., King of Spain, of glorious memory, who laid before Sixtus V. not only the reasons of complaint which he had, but also those alleged by the inquisitors of his kingdom, against the excessive privileges of the Society, and the form of their government. He desired likewise that the Pope should be acquainted with the heads of accusation laid against the Society, and confirmed by some of its own members remarkable for their learning and piety, and demanded that the Society should undergo an apostolic visitation. Sixtus V., convinced that these demands and solicitations of Philip were just and well founded, did, without hesitation, comply therewith; and, in consequence, named a bishop of distinguished prudence, virtue, and learning, to be apostolical visitor, and at the same time deputed a congregation of cardinals to examine this matter.​

Clement's list of abuses done by the Jesuit order

========================================

"After so many storms, troubles, and divisions, every good man looked forward with impatience to the happy day which was to restore peace and tranquility. But under the reign of this same Clement XIII. the times became more difficult and tempestuous; complaints and quarrels were multiplied on every side; in some places dangerous sedition arose, tumults, discords, dissension, scandals, which, weakening or entirely breaking the bonds of Christian charity, excited the faithful to all the rage of party hatreds and enmities. Desolation and danger grew to such a height, that the very sovereigns, whose piety and liberality towards the Company were so well known as to be looked upon as hereditary in their families—we mean our dearly beloved sons in Christ, the Kings of France, Spain, Portugal, and Sicily found themselves reduced to the necessity of expelling and driving from their states, kingdoms, and provinces, these very Companions of Jesus persuaded that there remained no other remedy to so great evils; and that this step was necessary in order to prevent the Christians from rising one against another, and from massacring each other in the very bosom of our common mother the Holy Church. The said our dear sons in Jesus Christ having since considered that even this remedy would not be sufficient towards reconciling the whole Christian world, unless the said Society was absolutely abolished and suppressed, made known their demands and wills in this matter to our said predecessor Clement VIII."
...

"These dissensions and disputes arose sometimes concerning the nature of their vows, ...

Beyond the "nature of their vows" there was the issue of morals and heterodoxy.

"Who would have thought that even these dispositions should prove ineffectual towards appeasing the cries and appeals against the Society? On the contrary, very violent disputes arose on all sides concerning the doctrine of the Society, which many represented as contrary to the orthodox faith and to sound morals. The dissensions among themselves, and with others, grew every day more animated; the accusations against the Society were multiplied without number, and especially with that insatiable avidity of temporal possessions with which it was reproached.

Pope Clement XIV goes on to say

these very Companions of Jesus persuaded that there remained no other remedy to so great evils; and that this step was necessary in order to prevent the Christians from rising one against another, and from massacring each other in the very bosom of our common mother the Holy Church.​

====================

From – THE INQUISITION: A Study in Absolute Catholic Power

The Inquisition was a terrifying fact of life to those who lived in areas where it was in force. That domain would eventually include not only much of Europe, but also the far-flung colonies of Europe's Catholic powers.

"The Inquisition, led by the Dominicans and the Jesuits, was usually early on the scene following each territorial acquisition of the Spanish and Portuguese empires in the 16th and 17th centuries. The methods used, which all too often were similar to those used by Serra in California or the Nazi-backed Ustashis in Croatia, sowed the seeds of reaction and aversion that have proved to be a barrier for true missionaries ever since.​

​

====================================​

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/19467151

The Spanish Inquisition

“The Jesuits are famous for their role in the Spanish Inquisition, though contrary to popular opinion the Jesuit order did not begin it. The inquisition was set up in 1480, 60 years before the Papal bull that formalised the creation of the Society of Jesus.​

​

“The Spanish Inquisition was originally overseen by members of the Dominican order, though members of the Jesuit brotherhood were involved at a later date.​

​

“Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition was not formally disbanded until 1834, though its influence had significantly dwindled prior to that date.​

​

“The Inquisition was famous for its use of torture to elicit confessions from accused 'heretics'. It was believed that confessions extracted after torture must be true, an idea that was later dispelled.​

​

 

[BobRyan]

Doctrine of Discovery

Papal Bull Dum Diversas
18 June, 1452​

Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas on 18 June, 1452. It authorised Alfonso V of Portugal to reduce any “Saracens (Muslims) and pagans and any other unbelievers” to perpetual slavery. This facilitated the Portuguese slave trade from West Africa.

The same pope wrote the bull Romanus Pontifex on January 5, 1455 to the same Alfonso. As a follow-up to the Dum diversas, it extended to the Catholic nations of Europe dominion over discovered lands during the Age of Discovery. Along with sanctifying the seizure of non-Christian lands, it encouraged the enslavement of native, non-Christian peoples in Africa and the New World.

“We weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit -- by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors”.​

 

[BobRyan]

Bible banned if it was in the language of the people (nick named: vulgar language)

from; Counter-Reformation - Inquisition and outcomes of the Counter-Reformation

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum (“Index of Forbidden Books”) was established by the Roman Catholic Church in 1559 in an attempt to combat the spread of some of the writings of the Protestant Reformation. The first printed Index included a prohibition against the “Bible in Castilian Romance or any other vulgar tongue,” a ban that remained in force until the 18th century. Many books deemed heretical or threatening to the faith were destroyed or hidden

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:

"A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:​

​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

​

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest:

Many Christian groups "exterminated"

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”​

 

[prodromos]

BobRyan said:

The LATERAN IV command to exterminate fellow Christians - was an ecumenical council command



Lateran IV's command to exterminate heretics, steal their property etc is a fact of history - period. No amount of slamming me can erase that fact as I am sure you already know.

NewAdvent Catholic Online Encyclopedia – regarding ecumenical councils like LATERAN IV

1. Ecumenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians. A council, Ecumenical in its convocation, may fail to secure the approbation of the whole Church or of the pope, and thus not rank in authority with Ecumenical councils. Such was the case with the Robber Synod of 449 (Latrocinium Ephesinum), the Synod of Pisa in 1409, and in part with the Councils of Constance and Basle. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: General Councils

Fordham –​

CANON 3​

​

Text. "We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith which we have above explained; condemning all heretics under whatever names they may be known, for while they have different faces they are nevertheless bound to each other by their tails, since in all of them vanity is a common element. Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues. But those who are only suspected, due consideration being given to the nature of the suspicion and the character of the person, unless they prove their innocence by a proper defense, let them be anathematized and avoided by all 1-intil they have made suitable satisfaction; but if they have been under excommunication for one year, then let them be condemned as heretics. Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land."​

​

​

Moneantur autem et inducantur et si necesse fuerit per censuram ecclesiasticam compellantur saeculares potestates, quibuscumque fungantur officiis, ut sicut reputari cupiunt et haberi fideles, it a pro defensione fidei praestent publice iuramentum, quod de terris suae iurisdictioni subiectis universos haereticos ab ecclesia denotatos bona fide pro viribus exterminare studebunt, ita quod amodo quandocumque quis fuerit in potestatem sive spiritualem sive temporalem assumptus, hoc teneatur capitulum iuramento firmare.​

True - yet inexplicably Prodromos apparently views that as being some sort of "secret from me" even though I keep reminding readers of this thread that the extermination statements are right there for all to see and Catholic sources cannot be "blamed on me".

Long live the "inquisition"??


Another example of no fact being listed - just a slamming of the one who dared post.
I guess that solution is of the form "just ignore all those direct quotes -- and try and imagine this... is what you see"

Exterminate - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

Originating in the 1540s from Latin exterminatus, past participle of exterminare meaning "drive out" or "destroy," the word means to expel or drive beyond boundar...

www.etymonline.com

1540s, "drive away," from Latin exterminatus, past participle of exterminare "drive out, expel, put aside, drive beyond boundaries," also, in Late Latin "destroy," from phrase ex termine "beyond the boundary," from ex "out of" (see ex-) + termine, ablative of termen "boundary, limit, end" (see terminus).

Meaning "destroy utterly" is from 1640s in English, a sense found in equivalent words in French and in the Vulgate; earlier in this sense was extermine (mid-15c.). Related: Exterminated; exterminating.

Lateran IV precedes the meaning used by Bob by several centuries

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Bob still has not proven that the Cathars or other heretics are Christians. The Catholic Church does not persecute Christians. Heretics are not christian by definition as they live in open defiance of the faith
To preach against the faith is to take the voice of Satan the original rebel. As such their motivation is not humility but a welling up of pride in defiance of the Church.

John warns us about heretics in his second epistle

And this is charity, that we walk according to his commandments. For this is the commandment, that, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in the same: 7 For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.



Hmmm. Jesus is not come in the flesh? For 1500 years all of Christianity taught as Jesus taught in John 6 that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life in us. As such the Apostles and all Bishops and priests after them taught the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Then in 1529 some dude named Zwingli taught that Jesus was not present but imaginary. It all symbolic don’t you know. It’s just bread and wine. Others accused believers of worshipping a wafer god. Jesus is not really present, you are idolaters.
I wonder who John was referring to in his Epistle. Certainly not the Catholic Church

 

[BobRyan]

Exterminate - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

Originating in the 1540s from Latin exterminatus, past participle of exterminare meaning "drive out" or "destroy," the word means to expel or drive beyond boundar...

www.etymonline.com

1540s, "drive away," from Latin exterminatus, past participle of exterminare "drive out, expel, put aside, drive beyond boundaries," also, in Late Latin "destroy," from phrase ex termine "beyond the boundary," from ex "out of" (see ex-) + termine, ablative of termen "boundary, limit, end" (see terminus).

Meaning "destroy utterly" is from 1640s in English, a sense found in equivalent words in French and in the Vulgate; earlier in this sense was extermine (mid-15c.). Related: Exterminated; exterminating.

Lateran IV precedes the meaning used by Bob by several centuries

Their own Catholic digest uses it as I stated -- and it specifically points to war as one of the "extermination" methods

"This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

As we already saw here --

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:

"A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:​

​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

​

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest:

Many Christian groups "exterminated"

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”​

AND as we saw from the LATERAN IV statement - that form of "exterminate" also meant stealing the property of the people "exterminated" because after being exterminated they no longer existed in that territory.

Miriam Webster –

Word of the Day: Exterminate

“Originally, to exterminate something was to banish it or drive it away. And it is this meaning that can be found in the Latin origin of "exterminate." "Exterminate" comes from "exterminatus," the past participle of "exterminare," meaning "to drive beyond the boundaries." The Latin word "exterminare" was formed from the prefix "ex-" ("out of" or "outside") and "terminus" ("boundary"). Not much more than a century after its introduction to English, "exterminate" came to denote destroying or utterly putting an end to something. And that's the use with which the word is usually employed today.”

DON'T MISS THAT: "Exterminate" comes from "exterminatus," the past participle of "exterminare,"

================================


To chase people away via threat of violence (in fact "War" as one of the tools of "extermination") and then stealing their land/business stuff -- is again - not a Christian activity and nothing at all that NT leaders commanded/sanctioned/called for.

 

[BobRyan]

The BATTLE AGAINST Bible Societies - Part I

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum (“Index of Forbidden Books”) – banned the Bible in the vernacular language – 1559

GC 267 -- . "Efforts to Suppress and Destroy the Bible.—The Council of Toulouse, which met about the time of the crusade against the Albigenses, ruled: “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament.... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The Lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.”—Concil. Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229. Canons 14 and 2. This Council sat at the time of the crusade against the Albigenses. GC 687.6

Pius XIV – Syllabus of Errors

From: Pius IX Is Pope Longer than Any Other

“Vatican I also denounced false beliefs known as Modernism. Pius issued a Syllabus of Errors against such developments as Rationalism, Communism, Naturalism, interfaith marriages and latitudinarianism (a too wide and easy belief system)--but also against Bible societies.

From: Library : The Syllabus of Pius IX “The Syllabus of Pius IX”

“IV. SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM, SECRET SOCIETIES, BIBLICAL SOCIETIES, CLERICO-LIBERAL SOCIETIES​

​

"Pests of this kind are frequently reprobated in the severest terms in the Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846, Allocution "Quibus quantisque," April 20, 1849, Encyclical "Noscitis et nobiscum," Dec. 8, 1849, Allocution "Singulari quadam," Dec. 9, 1854, Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863.​

So we see that the Condemnation of bible societies starts with reference to Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846

And para 14 of that encyclical reminds the reader to go to encyclical Inter praecipuas machinationes. (as we see in the text below)

from: Qui Pluribus - Papal Encyclicals “Qui Pluribus”​

​

Qui Pluribus​

On Faith and Religion​

Pope BI. Pius IX - 1846​

​

To All Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, and Bishops​

​

13. “You already know well, venerable brothers, the other portentous errors and deceits by which the sons of this world try most bitterly to attack the Catholic religion …​

​

14. “This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church. The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters.[16] It is Our will to condemn them likewise.​

​

Footnote for (16) refers to Gregory XVI, encyclical letter Inter praecipuas machinationes.​

​

And encyclical letter Inter praecipuas machinationes. is a massive confession about how extensive Bible banning had been going on by the year 1844. I provided the link to the full document above – I encourage the reader to go to that link and read all of it. Summarized here for brevity.

 

[BobRyan]

“the battle against the biblical societies” part II

Continued... from: Qui Pluribus - Papal Encyclicals “Qui Pluribus”

Among the special schemes with which non-Catholics plot against the adherents of Catholic truth to turn their minds away from the faith, the biblical societies are prominent. They were first established in England and have spread far and wide so that We now see them as an army on the march, conspiring to publish in great numbers copies of the books of divine Scripture. These are translated into all kinds of vernacular languages for dissemination without discrimination among both Christians and infidels. Then the biblical societies invite everyone to read them unguided. Therefore it is just as Jerome complained in his day:[l] they make the art of understanding the Scriptures without a teacher “common to babbling old women and crazy old men and verbose sophists,” and to anyone who can read, no matter what his status. Indeed, what is even more absurd and almost unheard of, they do not exclude the common people of the infidels from sharing this kind of a knowledge.​

​

2. But you know the aim of these societies. …It is of little concern to these societies if men reading their vernacular Bibles fall into error. They are concerned primarily that the reader becomes accustomed to judging for himself the meaning of the books of Scripture, to scorning divine tradition preserved by the Catholic Church in the teaching of the Fathers, and to repudiating the very authority of the Church.​

​

4. Moreover, regarding the translation of the Bible into the vernacular, even many centuries ago bishops in various places have at times had to exercise greater vigilance when they became aware that such translations were being read in secret gatherings or were being distributed by heretics. Innocent III issued warnings concerning the secret gatherings of laymen and women, under the pretext of piety, for the reading of Scripture in the diocese of Metz.[12] There was also a special prohibition of Scripture translations promulgated either in Gaul a little later[13] or in Spain before the sixteenth century.[14] But later even more care was required when the Lutherans and Calvinists dared to oppose the changeless doctrine of the faith with an almost incredible variety of errors. They left no means untried to deceive the faithful with perverse explanations of the sacred books, which were published by their adherents with new interpretations in the vernacular. They were aided in multiplying copies and quickly spreading them by the newly invented art of printing. Therefore in the rules written by the fathers chosen by the Council of Trent, approved by Pius IV,’s and placed in the Index of forbidden books, we read the statute declaring that vernacular Bibles are forbidden except to those for whom it is judged that the reading will contribute “to the increase of faith and piety.”[16] Because of the continued deceptions of heretics, this rule was further restricted and supplemented by a declaration of Benedict XIV: for the future the only vernacular translations which may be read are those which “are approved by the Apostolic See” or at least were published “with annotations taken from the holy Fathers of the Church, or from learned and Catholic authors.”[17]​

​

5. Meanwhile there was no dearth of new sect members in the school of Jansenius. Borrowing the tactics of the Lutherans and Calvinists, they rebuked the Apostolic See on the grounds that because the reading of the Scriptures for all the faithful, at all times and places, was useful and necessary, it therefore could not be forbidden anyone by any authority. But this audacity of the Jansenists we find reprehended by the grave censures of two recent supreme pontiffs, namely Clement XI in the Constitution Unigenitus in 1713[18] and Pius VI in the Constitution Auctorem Fidei in 1794.[19]​

​

6. So before the biblical societies were founded, the faithful had already been alerted by the aforementioned decrees against the deception of the heretics, which works in their specious zeal to spread the divine writings for the common use. However Pius VII, who understood that these societies founded in his time were flourishing, opposed their efforts by means of his apostolic nuncio, by his letters, by published decrees,[20] by various Congregations of Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, and by two of his pontifical letters which he addressed to the archbishops of Gniezno[21] and Mohilev.[22] Immediately thereafter Leo XII continued the battle against the biblical societies with an encyclical letter addressed to all the bishops of the Catholic world, published on May 5, 1824, and Pius VIII did the same in an encyclical letter published May 24, 1829. And lastly, We who, though unworthy, have succeeded to his place have taken great pains to remind the faithful of the ancient laws concerning vernacular translations of the Scriptures.[23]​

​

8. In the meantime, the biblical societies did not doubt that they would obtain high praise for leading infidels in some manner or other to the profession of the Christian name by the reading of the sacred books published in their own language. They strove to distribute these in immense numbers by their missionaries and scouts…​

​

9. …. Actually We learned from reports and documents just received that a number of men of various sects met in the city of New York last year on June 12 and founded a new society called Christian League. Their common purpose is to spread religious liberty, or rather an insane desire for indifference concerning religion, among Romans and Italians. … Therefore they are determined to give everyone the gift of liberty of conscience, or rather of error; they liken it to a fountain from which political liberty and increased public prosperity may spring forth. … Therefore the societies have concentrated on these people so that they will bring corrupt, vernacular Bibles here and secretly spread them among the faithful.​

​

11. Therefore, taking counsel with a number of Cardinals, and weighing the whole matter seriously and in good time, We have decided to send this letter to all of you. We again condemn all the above-mentioned biblical societies of which our predecessors disapproved. We specifically condemn the new one called Christian League founded last year in New York and other societies of the same kind, if they have already joined with it or do so in the future. Therefore let it be known to all that anyone who joins one of these societies, or aids it, or favors it in any way will be guilty of a grievous crime. Besides We confirm and renew by Our apostolic authority the prescriptions listed and published long ago concerning the publication, dissemination, reading, and possession of vernacular translations of sacred Scriptures. Concerning other works of any writer We repeat that all must abide by the general rules and decrees of Our predecessors which are found in the Index of forbidden books, and indeed not only for those books specifically listed, but also for others to which the aforementioned prohibitions apply.​

AS GC 267 reports – they were to take away from Christians the vernacular copy of the Bible, or any other condemned books

12. Thus, We emphatically exhort you to announce these Our commands to the people accredited to your pastoral care; explain them in the proper place and time, and strive mightily to keep the faithful sheep away from the Christian League and other biblical societies, as well as away from their followers. Also take from the faithful both the vernacular Bibles which have been published contrary to the sanctions of the Roman Pontiffs and all other books which are proscribed and condemned. … under no pretext whatsoever should they dare to explain and interpret the divine writings contrary to the tradition of the Fathers or the interpretation of the Catholic Church​

 

[BobRyan]

John warns us about heretics in his second epistle

And this is charity, that we walk according to his commandments. For this is the commandment, that, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in the same: 7 For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.

You may choose to call whatever doctrine you like a "heresy" - the point is that you cannot attack someone's home - threaten them with violence take their possessions and "exterminate them" via war or other sources of coercion as if that is a Christian activity John has called for.

If all the Catholic documents (and historians) reported to us was that in the past "Catholics did not say - God speed you - to anyone they deemed to be a heretic" -- I doubt that we would have this material in the thread to comment upon at this point. I doubt Pope Francis would refer to it as "inhumane" or that it was something to "apologize for". And I doubt anyone would "leave town" or abandon possessions or climb the Alps in winter to avoid experiencing the "absence of a 'god speed you' comment".

In fact one of the complaints in the Papal documents is that those bad-guy Bible readers were 'reading in secret'. So not exactly afraid of not hearing "god speed you" to the point of not meeting in secret.

And I think we both know it.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The BATTLE AGAINST Bible Societies - Part I

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum (“Index of Forbidden Books”) – banned the Bible in the vernacular language – 1559

GC 267 -- . "Efforts to Suppress and Destroy the Bible.—The Council of Toulouse, which met about the time of the crusade against the Albigenses, ruled: “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament.... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The Lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.”—Concil. Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229. Canons 14 and 2. This Council sat at the time of the crusade against the Albigenses. GC 687.6

Pius XIV – Syllabus of Errors

From: Pius IX Is Pope Longer than Any Other

“Vatican I also denounced false beliefs known as Modernism. Pius issued a Syllabus of Errors against such developments as Rationalism, Communism, Naturalism, interfaith marriages and latitudinarianism (a too wide and easy belief system)--but also against Bible societies.

From: Library : The Syllabus of Pius IX “The Syllabus of Pius IX”

“IV. SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM, SECRET SOCIETIES, BIBLICAL SOCIETIES, CLERICO-LIBERAL SOCIETIES​

​

"Pests of this kind are frequently reprobated in the severest terms in the Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846, Allocution "Quibus quantisque," April 20, 1849, Encyclical "Noscitis et nobiscum," Dec. 8, 1849, Allocution "Singulari quadam," Dec. 9, 1854, Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863.​

So we see that the Condemnation of bible societies starts with reference to Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846

And para 14 of that encyclical reminds the reader to go to encyclical Inter praecipuas machinationes. (as we see in the text below)

from: Qui Pluribus - Papal Encyclicals “Qui Pluribus”​

​

Qui Pluribus​

On Faith and Religion​

Pope BI. Pius IX - 1846​

​

To All Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, and Bishops​

​

13. “You already know well, venerable brothers, the other portentous errors and deceits by which the sons of this world try most bitterly to attack the Catholic religion …​

​

14. “This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church. The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters.[16] It is Our will to condemn them likewise.​

​

Footnote for (16) refers to Gregory XVI, encyclical letter Inter praecipuas machinationes.​

​

And encyclical letter Inter praecipuas machinationes. is a massive confession about how extensive Bible banning had been going on by the year 1844. I provided the link to the full document above – I encourage the reader to go to that link and read all of it. Summarized here for brevity.

Ok granted. The error that you make is in the proper order. The Bible was produced through the Church, and is a testament of her words as inspired by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Christ before His ascension.
The Church wrote the Bible, the Bible did not produce the Church. The Church did not ban the Bible from being read. We read it every day, and it was read every day back then during Mass. every day, multiple times per day.
What was banned was using the Bible to stir up rebellion and get souls to ignore sound doctrine to their detriment. The Lord commands us not to take His name in vain. He will not count him guiltless who takes His name in vain. That does not just include uttering the name of Our Lord in an irreverent way, but placing the name of God on a teaching which is contrary to His truth. If you say, “this teaching is from God”, when it is not, you take His name in vain. There are not 30,000 branches of truth as there are over 30,000 denominations, there is only one.
Who are you? Do you take the Lord’s name in vain?

 

[prodromos]

Your own Catholic digest uses it as I stated -- and it specifically points to war as one of the "extermination" methods

I'm not Catholic.

 

[BobRyan]

Exterminate - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

Originating in the 1540s from Latin exterminatus, past participle of exterminare meaning "drive out" or "destroy," the word means to expel or drive beyond boundar...

www.etymonline.com

1540s, "drive away," from Latin exterminatus, past participle of exterminare "drive out, expel, put aside, drive beyond boundaries," also, in Late Latin "destroy," from phrase ex termine "beyond the boundary," from ex "out of" (see ex-) + termine, ablative of termen "boundary, limit, end" (see terminus).

Meaning "destroy utterly" is from 1640s in English, a sense found in equivalent words in French and in the Vulgate; earlier in this sense was extermine (mid-15c.). Related: Exterminated; exterminating.

Lateran IV precedes the meaning used by Bob by several centuries

Their own Catholic digest uses it as I stated -- and it specifically points to war as one of the "extermination" methods

"This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

As we already saw here --

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:

"A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:​

​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

​

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest:

Many Christian groups "exterminated"

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”​

AND as we saw from the LATERAN IV statement - that form of "exterminate" also meant stealing the property of the people "exterminated" because after being exterminated they no longer existed in that territory.

Miriam Webster –

Word of the Day: Exterminate

“Originally, to exterminate something was to banish it or drive it away. And it is this meaning that can be found in the Latin origin of "exterminate." "Exterminate" comes from "exterminatus," the past participle of "exterminare," meaning "to drive beyond the boundaries." The Latin word "exterminare" was formed from the prefix "ex-" ("out of" or "outside") and "terminus" ("boundary"). Not much more than a century after its introduction to English, "exterminate" came to denote destroying or utterly putting an end to something. And that's the use with which the word is usually employed today.”

DON'T MISS THAT: "Exterminate" comes from "exterminatus," the past participle of "exterminare,"

================================


To chase people away via threat of violence (in fact "War" as one of the tools of "extermination") and then stealing their land/business stuff -- is again - not a Christian activity and nothing at all that NT leaders commanded/sanctioned/called for.

I'm not Catholic.

correction is made --- it now says

Their own Catholic digest uses it as I stated -- and it specifically points to war as one of the "extermination" methods

"This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

 

[BobRyan]

Who are you? Do you take the Lord’s name in vain?

No - even though the command "Do not take God's name in vain" is not found at all in the NT - it is still a commandment of God and as 1 John 3:4 states - "sin IS transgression of the Law" -- even in the NT. Making up rules such as "whatever is not repeated should be deleted" is not a Bible teaching.

We might both agree on this point.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok granted. The error that you make is in the proper order.

I simply point to the "Battle against Bible societies" waged by the Catholic church against those societies

As saw it here -

The BATTLE AGAINST Bible Societies - Part I

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum (“Index of Forbidden Books”) – banned the Bible in the vernacular language – 1559

GC 267 -- . "Efforts to Suppress and Destroy the Bible.—The Council of Toulouse, which met about the time of the crusade against the Albigenses, ruled: “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament.... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The Lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.”—Concil. Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229. Canons 14 and 2. This Council sat at the time of the crusade against the Albigenses. GC 687.6

Pius XIV – Syllabus of Errors

From: Pius IX Is Pope Longer than Any Other

“Vatican I also denounced false beliefs known as Modernism. Pius issued a Syllabus of Errors against such developments as Rationalism, Communism, Naturalism, interfaith marriages and latitudinarianism (a too wide and easy belief system)--but also against Bible societies.

From: Library : The Syllabus of Pius IX “The Syllabus of Pius IX”

“IV. SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM, SECRET SOCIETIES, BIBLICAL SOCIETIES, CLERICO-LIBERAL SOCIETIES​

​

"Pests of this kind are frequently reprobated in the severest terms in the Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846, Allocution "Quibus quantisque," April 20, 1849, Encyclical "Noscitis et nobiscum," Dec. 8, 1849, Allocution "Singulari quadam," Dec. 9, 1854, Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863.​

So we see that the Condemnation of bible societies starts with reference to Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846

And para 14 of that encyclical reminds the reader to go to encyclical Inter praecipuas machinationes. (as we see in the text below)

from: Qui Pluribus - Papal Encyclicals “Qui Pluribus”​

​

Qui Pluribus​

On Faith and Religion​

Pope BI. Pius IX - 1846​

​

To All Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, and Bishops​

​

13. “You already know well, venerable brothers, the other portentous errors and deceits by which the sons of this world try most bitterly to attack the Catholic religion …​

​

14. “This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church. The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters.[16] It is Our will to condemn them likewise.​

​

Footnote for (16) refers to Gregory XVI, encyclical letter Inter praecipuas machinationes.​

​

And encyclical letter Inter praecipuas machinationes. is a massive confession about how extensive Bible banning had been going on by the year 1844. I provided the link to the full document above – I encourage the reader to go to that link and read all of it. Summarized here for brevity.

and here

“the battle against the biblical societies” part II

Continued... from: Qui Pluribus - Papal Encyclicals “Qui Pluribus”

Among the special schemes with which non-Catholics plot against the adherents of Catholic truth to turn their minds away from the faith, the biblical societies are prominent. They were first established in England and have spread far and wide so that We now see them as an army on the march, conspiring to publish in great numbers copies of the books of divine Scripture. These are translated into all kinds of vernacular languages for dissemination without discrimination among both Christians and infidels. Then the biblical societies invite everyone to read them unguided. Therefore it is just as Jerome complained in his day:[l] they make the art of understanding the Scriptures without a teacher “common to babbling old women and crazy old men and verbose sophists,” and to anyone who can read, no matter what his status. Indeed, what is even more absurd and almost unheard of, they do not exclude the common people of the infidels from sharing this kind of a knowledge.​

​

2. But you know the aim of these societies. …It is of little concern to these societies if men reading their vernacular Bibles fall into error. They are concerned primarily that the reader becomes accustomed to judging for himself the meaning of the books of Scripture, to scorning divine tradition preserved by the Catholic Church in the teaching of the Fathers, and to repudiating the very authority of the Church.​

​

4. Moreover, regarding the translation of the Bible into the vernacular, even many centuries ago bishops in various places have at times had to exercise greater vigilance when they became aware that such translations were being read in secret gatherings or were being distributed by heretics. Innocent III issued warnings concerning the secret gatherings of laymen and women, under the pretext of piety, for the reading of Scripture in the diocese of Metz.[12] There was also a special prohibition of Scripture translations promulgated either in Gaul a little later[13] or in Spain before the sixteenth century.[14] But later even more care was required when the Lutherans and Calvinists dared to oppose the changeless doctrine of the faith with an almost incredible variety of errors. They left no means untried to deceive the faithful with perverse explanations of the sacred books, which were published by their adherents with new interpretations in the vernacular. They were aided in multiplying copies and quickly spreading them by the newly invented art of printing. Therefore in the rules written by the fathers chosen by the Council of Trent, approved by Pius IV,’s and placed in the Index of forbidden books, we read the statute declaring that vernacular Bibles are forbidden except to those for whom it is judged that the reading will contribute “to the increase of faith and piety.”[16] Because of the continued deceptions of heretics, this rule was further restricted and supplemented by a declaration of Benedict XIV: for the future the only vernacular translations which may be read are those which “are approved by the Apostolic See” or at least were published “with annotations taken from the holy Fathers of the Church, or from learned and Catholic authors.”[17]​

​

5. Meanwhile there was no dearth of new sect members in the school of Jansenius. Borrowing the tactics of the Lutherans and Calvinists, they rebuked the Apostolic See on the grounds that because the reading of the Scriptures for all the faithful, at all times and places, was useful and necessary, it therefore could not be forbidden anyone by any authority. But this audacity of the Jansenists we find reprehended by the grave censures of two recent supreme pontiffs, namely Clement XI in the Constitution Unigenitus in 1713[18] and Pius VI in the Constitution Auctorem Fidei in 1794.[19]​

​

6. So before the biblical societies were founded, the faithful had already been alerted by the aforementioned decrees against the deception of the heretics, which works in their specious zeal to spread the divine writings for the common use. However Pius VII, who understood that these societies founded in his time were flourishing, opposed their efforts by means of his apostolic nuncio, by his letters, by published decrees,[20] by various Congregations of Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, and by two of his pontifical letters which he addressed to the archbishops of Gniezno[21] and Mohilev.[22] Immediately thereafter Leo XII continued the battle against the biblical societies with an encyclical letter addressed to all the bishops of the Catholic world, published on May 5, 1824, and Pius VIII did the same in an encyclical letter published May 24, 1829. And lastly, We who, though unworthy, have succeeded to his place have taken great pains to remind the faithful of the ancient laws concerning vernacular translations of the Scriptures.[23]​

​

8. In the meantime, the biblical societies did not doubt that they would obtain high praise for leading infidels in some manner or other to the profession of the Christian name by the reading of the sacred books published in their own language. They strove to distribute these in immense numbers by their missionaries and scouts…​

​

9. …. Actually We learned from reports and documents just received that a number of men of various sects met in the city of New York last year on June 12 and founded a new society called Christian League. Their common purpose is to spread religious liberty, or rather an insane desire for indifference concerning religion, among Romans and Italians. … Therefore they are determined to give everyone the gift of liberty of conscience, or rather of error; they liken it to a fountain from which political liberty and increased public prosperity may spring forth. … Therefore the societies have concentrated on these people so that they will bring corrupt, vernacular Bibles here and secretly spread them among the faithful.​

​

11. Therefore, taking counsel with a number of Cardinals, and weighing the whole matter seriously and in good time, We have decided to send this letter to all of you. We again condemn all the above-mentioned biblical societies of which our predecessors disapproved. We specifically condemn the new one called Christian League founded last year in New York and other societies of the same kind, if they have already joined with it or do so in the future. Therefore let it be known to all that anyone who joins one of these societies, or aids it, or favors it in any way will be guilty of a grievous crime. Besides We confirm and renew by Our apostolic authority the prescriptions listed and published long ago concerning the publication, dissemination, reading, and possession of vernacular translations of sacred Scriptures. Concerning other works of any writer We repeat that all must abide by the general rules and decrees of Our predecessors which are found in the Index of forbidden books, and indeed not only for those books specifically listed, but also for others to which the aforementioned prohibitions apply.​

AS GC 267 reports – they were to take away from Christians the vernacular copy of the Bible, or any other condemned books

12. Thus, We emphatically exhort you to announce these Our commands to the people accredited to your pastoral care; explain them in the proper place and time, and strive mightily to keep the faithful sheep away from the Christian League and other biblical societies, as well as away from their followers. Also take from the faithful both the vernacular Bibles which have been published contrary to the sanctions of the Roman Pontiffs and all other books which are proscribed and condemned. … under no pretext whatsoever should they dare to explain and interpret the divine writings contrary to the tradition of the Fathers or the interpretation of the Catholic Church​

The Catholic church condemned making available to the people the ", gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church."

"We again condemn all the above-mentioned biblical societies of which our predecessors disapproved. We specifically condemn the new one called Christian League founded last year in New York and other societies of the same kind,"

"We confirm and renew by Our apostolic authority the prescriptions listed and published long ago concerning the publication, dissemination, reading, and possession of vernacular translations of sacred Scriptures. Concerning other works of any writer We repeat that all must abide by the general rules and decrees of Our predecessors which are found in the Index of forbidden books, and indeed not only for those books specifically listed, but also for others to which the aforementioned prohibitions apply."

The Catholic complaint was that ", the biblical societies did not doubt that they would obtain high praise for leading infidels in some manner or other to the profession of the Christian name by the reading of the sacred books published in their own language. They strove to distribute these in immense numbers by their missionaries and scouts…"

"the rules written by the fathers chosen by the Council of Trent, approved by Pius IV,’s and placed in the Index of forbidden books, we read the statute declaring that vernacular Bibles are forbidden except to those for whom it is judged that the reading will contribute “to the increase of faith and piety.”[16] Because of the continued deceptions of heretics, this rule was further restricted and supplemented by a declaration of Benedict XIV: for the future the only vernacular translations which may be read are those which “are approved by the Apostolic See”

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible was produced through the Church, and is a testament of her words

on the contrary - the NT Bible writers were writing before the existence of the Catholic church and were writing texts that created the Christian church's doctrinal position.

The Bible says that messages came NOT "from the church" but
1. "from God" 2 Tim 3:16
2. TO the Bible writers 2 Peter 1:19-21
3. and then given To the christian church
4. -- FOR the building up of the church 1 Cor 14:1-4.'

In the in the Index of forbidden books -- the Catholic church condemns the Word of God - the Bible in the venacular - but does NOT condemn her own Papal Encyclicals, her own documents "in the venacular"

 

[Valletta]

The BATTLE AGAINST Bible Societies - Part I

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum (“Index of Forbidden Books”) – banned the Bible in the vernacular language – 1559

GC 267 -- . "Efforts to Suppress and Destroy the Bible.—The Council of Toulouse, which met about the time of the crusade against the Albigenses, ruled: “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament.... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The Lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.”—Concil. Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229. Canons 14 and 2. This Council sat at the time of the crusade against the Albigenses. GC 687.6

Pius XIV – Syllabus of Errors

From: Pius IX Is Pope Longer than Any Other

“Vatican I also denounced false beliefs known as Modernism. Pius issued a Syllabus of Errors against such developments as Rationalism, Communism, Naturalism, interfaith marriages and latitudinarianism (a too wide and easy belief system)--but also against Bible societies.

From: Library : The Syllabus of Pius IX “The Syllabus of Pius IX”

“IV. SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM, SECRET SOCIETIES, BIBLICAL SOCIETIES, CLERICO-LIBERAL SOCIETIES​

​

"Pests of this kind are frequently reprobated in the severest terms in the Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846, Allocution "Quibus quantisque," April 20, 1849, Encyclical "Noscitis et nobiscum," Dec. 8, 1849, Allocution "Singulari quadam," Dec. 9, 1854, Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863.​

So we see that the Condemnation of bible societies starts with reference to Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846

And para 14 of that encyclical reminds the reader to go to encyclical Inter praecipuas machinationes. (as we see in the text below)

from: Qui Pluribus - Papal Encyclicals “Qui Pluribus”​

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Qui Pluribus​

On Faith and Religion​

Pope BI. Pius IX - 1846​

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To All Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, and Bishops​

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13. “You already know well, venerable brothers, the other portentous errors and deceits by which the sons of this world try most bitterly to attack the Catholic religion …​

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14. “This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church. The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters.[16] It is Our will to condemn them likewise.​

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Footnote for (16) refers to Gregory XVI, encyclical letter Inter praecipuas machinationes.​

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And encyclical letter Inter praecipuas machinationes. is a massive confession about how extensive Bible banning had been going on by the year 1844. I provided the link to the full document above – I encourage the reader to go to that link and read all of it. Summarized here for brevity.

The Catholic Church has always spoken out against corruption of the Word of God, saying that no one should add or subtract to it.

I simply point to the "Battle against Bible societies" waged by the Catholic church against those societies

As saw it here -

and here


The Catholic church condemned making available to the people the ", gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church."

"We again condemn all the above-mentioned biblical societies of which our predecessors disapproved. We specifically condemn the new one called Christian League founded last year in New York and other societies of the same kind,"

"We confirm and renew by Our apostolic authority the prescriptions listed and published long ago concerning the publication, dissemination, reading, and possession of vernacular translations of sacred Scriptures. Concerning other works of any writer We repeat that all must abide by the general rules and decrees of Our predecessors which are found in the Index of forbidden books, and indeed not only for those books specifically listed, but also for others to which the aforementioned prohibitions apply."

The Catholic complaint was that ", the biblical societies did not doubt that they would obtain high praise for leading infidels in some manner or other to the profession of the Christian name by the reading of the sacred books published in their own language. They strove to distribute these in immense numbers by their missionaries and scouts…"

"the rules written by the fathers chosen by the Council of Trent, approved by Pius IV,’s and placed in the Index of forbidden books, we read the statute declaring that vernacular Bibles are forbidden except to those for whom it is judged that the reading will contribute “to the increase of faith and piety.”[16] Because of the continued deceptions of heretics, this rule was further restricted and supplemented by a declaration of Benedict XIV: for the future the only vernacular translations which may be read are those which “are approved by the Apostolic See”

The Catholic Church has and will continue to speak out against those who change or corrupt the Bible and against corrupted versions of the Bible. The Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. Over the centuries Catholics have preached, copied, and preserved the BIble. To spread the Gospel a great many Catholics translated Biblical text into the common languages of the people, even though for most of the history of Christianity the majority of people were illiterate. After Latin surpassed Greek as the common language of the people, the Latin Vulgate under the direction of Saint Jerome became by far the standard Bible. "Vulgate" comes from "vulgar" or "common," meaning the common language of the people. Eventually Latin morphed into various languages such as Italian, Spanish, and French, and then came more translations by Catholics. There were Catholic translations of Biblical text in French, Bohemian, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, and Norwegian as well. In England long before Wycliffe and Tyndale, there were many translations of Biblical text by Catholics. To mention just a few of them, Venerable Bede, a Catholic monk, is perhaps the best known for his translation in the 700s. King Alfred the Great had not finished his translation of Psalms before he died, that would have been in the 800s. Now a lot of Biblical texts by Catholics have been destroyed, remember Protestants in England seized Catholic monasteries and gave the land to wealthy Protestants and much that was Catholic was sold off or destroyed. But some do exist, you can find some of Alfred’s translations in a manuscript dated as around 1050. These are in the English of the Saxons: The Illustrated Psalms of Alfred the Great: The Old English Paris Psalter When the Normans took over the English changed, the paraphrase of Orm is dated around 1150 and is an example of a Catholic translation into Middle English.