How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

[zoidar]

Okay, then do you believe they are goats and then become sheep?

No! People become symbolically sheep as they are saved. People who persist in unbelief until the end are then symbolically goats.

 

[Hammster]

No. People become sheep as they are saved. People who persist in unbelief until the end are then symbolicly goats.

But what are they in the interim? They had to be something other than sheep if they become sheep.

 

[Dah'veed]

If you aren’t going to answer, I’ll move along now.

You can run along but that doesn't change the fact that God gave the Gentiles the same gift He gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 11:17

 

[zoidar]

But what are they in the interim? They had to be something other than sheep if they become sheep.

If you look at football is there a winner and loser before the game began? What are the teams before the game then? They must be something in the interim.

You see that's the problem with your question, assuming something that is not stated.

 

[Hammster]

You can run along but that doesn't change the fact that God gave the Gentiles the same gift He gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 11:17

Okay. That’s not the subject of the OP, though.

 

[Hammster]

If you look at football is there a winner and loser before the game began? What are the teams before the game then? They must be something in the interim.

Yes, they are teams.

You see that's the problem with your question, assuming something that is not stated.

You’re the one who said they become sheep. Or they become goats. That indicates something prior to becoming one or the other. I even gave you the option of them being sheep prior to regeneration, but you rejected that. So scripture must give us some indication as to their state prior to becoming a sheep.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, they are teams.

You’re the one who said they become sheep. Or they become goats. That indicates something prior to becoming one or the other. I even gave you the option of them being sheep prior to regeneration, but you rejected that. So scripture must give us some indication as to their state prior to becoming a sheep.

The word "sheep" is used as a symbolic word for a believer in John 10. There is no opposite/contrasting symbolic word to sheep in Bible for an unbeliever. There is however a contrasting symbolic word for an unbeliever who persisted in unbelief until the end, in the parable about the day of judgment.

 

[Hammster]

The word "sheep" is used as a symbolic word for a believer in John 10. There is no opposite/contrasting symbolic word to sheep in Bible for an unbeliever. There is however a contrasting symbolic word for an unbeliever who persisted in unbelief until the end, in the parable about the day of judgment.

It’s symbolic of something, though. And yes we have many contrasting terms for believers and unbelievers. Sheep and goats (which you don’t think is applicable here), blind and seeing, alive and dead, natural and spiritual, etc. Yet here, you don’t think there’s an opposite. I’m not sure how to go on from here.

 

[zoidar]

It’s symbolic of something, though. And yes we have many contrasting terms for believers and unbelievers. Sheep and goats (which you don’t think is applicable here), blind and seeing, alive and dead, natural and spiritual, etc. Yet here, you don’t think there’s an opposite. I’m not sure how to go on from here.

We also have terms for believers or unbelievers that aren't contrasting. Like: "born again". I can't come up with more right now. I'm sure there are more. Animals are used symbolically in different ways in the Bible, so also with sheep.

I can't go along with your idea that a baby is born either sheep or goat. Scripture doesn't seem to support that either.

 

[John Mullally]

Good day, John

I am not assuming the text says:

joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Them whom His father gave would be His sheep so assume not in the least the text is clear.

The Shepard is the seeker it is true that Sheep follow and the Shepard is responsible for His sheep (none can snatch them away) . Jesus being the Great Shepard looses none of his sheep if he did he would be a very worthless and careless Shepard.

Oh for sure a sheep may choose to wonder off from the flock.... but the Shepard has the Hook a quick loop and yank of the neck, the sheep will follow right along as the Shepard carries out purposeful, sure, and unfailing guidance to His sheep for which he is responsible for.

Not sure that any of these passages fit the context as they do not deal with the historical sheep/ Shepard discourse, here so they are moot.


You may find this useful to your understanding of the sheep.

Jesus's parables are introductory material spoken largely to unbelieving Jews prior to the resurrection (i.e New Covenenant). Jesus revealed a lot of new information to His disciples after the resurrection. Prior to the resurrection God had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus - and I think that was the reason a lot of information did not come out until after the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

I look primarily to Acts and the Epistles written to New Covenant believers for doctrine and will not dissuaded from using them.

I don't know the disposition of those who would become His Sheep before they are converted. Is it lost sheep? I don't know and I don't see Jesus clearly explaining it. I don't like having the wool pulled over my eyes and I prefer answering questions that have scriptural grounding.

 

[John Mullally]

I agree, and I don’t refuse to answer questions. And if my answer doesn’t actually address what the questioner wants, I’ll do my best to make a correction because sometimes there are misunderstandings. My question to you was so that I could better understand your position concerning sheep. I think I’ve been clear on my position. I wasn’t sure exactly what @zoidar’s position was, so I asked him, and had a follow up to see if I could better understand his position. That’s the post you responded to, and instead of assuming what your view was, I asked you a follow up and was given a rude response in return.

I might be able to follow what you say here if you included Post numbers.

I am still interested in seeing how you answer your own question and then I can cross-examine.

 

[Hammster]

We also have terms for believers or unbelievers that aren't contrasting. Like: "born again". I can't come up with more right now. I'm sure there are more. Animals are used symbolically in different ways in the Bible, so also with sheep.

I can't go along with your idea that a baby is born either sheep or goat. Scripture doesn't seem to support that either.

Which is why I’m asking for you to come up with something to use, otherwise the text itself is meaningless.

 

[Hammster]

I might be able to follow what you say here if you included Post numbers.

I am still interested in seeing how you answer your own question and then I can cross-examine.

Sure, if that helps move things along. We are both either sheep or goats. In John 10, though, goats aren’t mentioned. So in that chapter I’m willing to concede that there are Christ’s sheep, and other sheep that belong to someone else, though I don’t think that distinction is necessary.

 

[BBAS 64]

Jesus's parables are introductory material spoken largely to unbelieving Jews prior to the resurrection (i.e New Covenenant). Jesus revealed a lot of new information to His disciples after the resurrection. Prior to the resurrection God had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus - and I think that was the reason a lot of information did not come out until after the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

I look primarily to Acts and the Epistles written to New Covenant believers for doctrine and will not dissuaded from using them.

I don't know the disposition of those who would become His Sheep before they are converted. Is it lost sheep? I don't know and I don't see Jesus clearly explaining it. I don't like having the wool pulled over my eyes and I prefer answering questions that have scriptural grounding.

Good Day, John

Not sure this part of Scripture would from a literally point of view be accurately classed a Parable, be that as it may.

Well then I could see where that would case such a big issue for you in dealing with and understanding the way Jesus as a Jew interacted with the tradition, historical and idiomatic nature of the Jewish culture and people.

You assume with out basis that they were ever anything other than His sheep the text of John make that quite clear in the text, but I understand why you would miss that truth within this in the discourse. The text is really clear and pointed in the discourse of the sheep and the Shepard and there is no doubt it was clearly understood and totally understandable in it's own context.

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

It’s symbolic of something, though. And yes we have many contrasting terms for believers and unbelievers. Sheep and goats (which you don’t think is applicable here), blind and seeing, alive and dead, natural and spiritual, etc. Yet here, you don’t think there’s an opposite. I’m not sure how to go on from here.

I have to say you gave me something to think about. You are right that the Bible often contast believers and unbelievers with different words. It would be a hard pill to swallow that a baby is born either sheep or goat. I'm quite certain that is the wrong understanding. I could though understand if I was a goat before I got saved (That was my view before).

A thing that just struck me is that the words you mention "blind and seeing, alive and dead, natural and spiritual" all describe the unbeliver vs the believer. But your claim for sheep and goats is different. Here you have people being sheep yet blind, yet dead, yet natural etc." So you treat the words for sheep and goat differently than other words describing believers and unbelivers.

 

[Hammster]

I have to say you gave me something to think about. You are right that the Bible often contast believers and unbelievers with different words. It would be a hard pill to swallow that a baby is born either sheep or goat. I'm quite certain that is the wrong understanding. I could though understand if I was a goat before I got saved.

A thing that just struck me is that the words you mention "blind and seeing, alive and dead, natural and spiritual" all describe the unbeliver vs the believer. But your claim for sheep and goats is different. Here you have people being sheep yet blind, yet dead, yet natural etc." So you treat the words for sheep and goat differently than other words describing believers and unbelivers.

That’s a good point. So I think the difference is that the sheep/goat difference is one of the nature of a person, and the others are the actual state of the person. So I can be, by nature, a sheep, yet my state can be blind or seeing, for instance. And as a sheep given to Christ by the Father, He will come for me, I will hear His voice, and I will follow.

 

[John Mullally]

Sure, if that helps move things along. We are both either sheep or goats. In John 10, though, goats aren’t mentioned. So in that chapter I’m willing to concede that there are Christ’s sheep, and other sheep that belong to someone else, though I don’t think that distinction is necessary.

Jesus says "I have other sheep ... I must bring them in also" in John 10:16 - so it is not someone elses Sheep. Some will say they are future Gentile believers. The Mormons say that they are people in the America's, as Jesus is said to have preached over there as well.

Are people earmarked as a Sheep before birth or after conversion?

 

[Hammster]

Jesus says "I have other sheep ... I must bring them in also" in John 10:16 - so it is not someone elses Sheep. Some will say they are future Gentile believers. The Mormons say that they are people in the America's, as Jesus is said to have preached over there as well.

I think the argument is that He’s referring to the Gentiles. He sent His disciples to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. I think that’s what’s in play here.

Are people earmarked as a Sheep before birth or after conversion?

It has to be before the creation of the world, otherwise we have serious problems with John 10.

 

[zoidar]

That’s a good point. So I think the difference is that the sheep/goat difference is one of the nature of a person, and the others are the actual state of the person. So I can be, by nature, a sheep, yet my state can be blind or seeing, for instance. And as a sheep given to Christ by the Father, He will come for me, I will hear His voice, and I will follow.

Do got any Biblical passages to support this view? Other than possibly the sheep parables?

 

[John Mullally]

Good Day, John

Not sure this part of Scripture would from a literally point of view be accurately classed a Parable, be that as it may.

Well then I could see where that would case such a big issue for you in dealing with and understanding the way Jesus as a Jew interacted with the tradition, historical and idiomatic nature of the Jewish culture and people.

You assume with out basis that they were ever anything other than His sheep the text of John make that quite clear in the text, but I understand why you would miss that truth within this in the discourse. The text is really clear and pointed in the discourse of the sheep and the Shepard and there is no doubt it was clearly understood and totally understandable in it's own context.

I cannot decipher from the text, good answers as to a number of questions that have been raised on this parable/analogy.

The purpose of the parable/analogy is to show the Religious leaders who opposed him the tremendously strong relationship of Jesus to His Father and His followers. And to show the leaders that they stand outside that.

Your point is that Jesus's Sheep are His Sheep over their entire lifetime. That is not in the text and it is contradicted. Jesus says that the Sheep listen to "my voice" - but that does not happen until after conversion.