The Fall of the West (It's Happening Now)

stevevw

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You seem confused about what is meant by subjective. If you say all my acts are objective because you think I'm using objective reasons, then all acts are objective. Which is nonsense.
No I am saying when it comes to your determination about when abortion is wrong at 1 week out from birth you are using an objective reason. The same objective reason the forefathers of Western nations said that the right to life is self-evident and a natural inalienable right meaning no individual or government can deny this and take that away.

Subjective is about the subject, their psychological state. Its completely within the persons world which is influenced by many things. A preference for food has no objective reason because there is no reason. Its just a state of being the subject is in. They can make up any reason, "oh I feel like chocolate today" whereas they may not have felt like chocolate last week or "I don't know why I like chocolate, but I do". So you cannot make right and wrong determinations because there is no reasons. Its not wrong for someone to dislike Brussel sprouts.

But when it comes to morality it belongs to a different category where we can make right and wrong determinations beyond our subjective psychological selves. We look outside ourselves for reasons. We have to because our behavior effects others and society. Those are the reasons. So we make behavior normative where we do make right and wrong determinations about peoples behavior.

Facts can be objective. Morality is subjective.
What are facts. What are you assuming are facts. Is 'Truth' itself a fact, what about honesty or love. What about consciousness. We may know the fact of say Gravity through Newtons law but a person doesn't understand this. They will just nod their head and agree. Its not until we experience gravity when we keep falling down that we know its real. That's when it becomes real to us in the objective world.

Its the same for morality. Its when we experience the moral in life that we come to know its truth or fact about the world. Except its not the same as an objective scientific fact but rather a truth like fact about reality because we really live it out in the world and come to realize its truth. Not to dissimilar to the science process but with non physical truths.
 
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Hans Blaster

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But there's needs to be some objective common truth that a society and culture bases the principles of Enlightenment on as mentioned above.
Reactionary politics and commentary about such. That's all I see.
That truth has to stand independent of people to work.
Part of the problem seems to be a reaching for "Truth" that is not the same as evidenced facts.
In abandoning God's truth secular society now have no basis for what is right and good regarding enlightened knowledge and the truth is now a subjective/relative one based on individual truths as to what is right, good and real.

Society always has its bases for "truth", sometimes it claims to be divine, sometimes from "tradition", or from other sources. The mix might be changing, but these things were never objective.
That inevitably leads to division, radicalism because there is no common unified based for truth. Truth becomes individualized, in opposition, in conflict and therefore people and groups will compete for their truth ideologies wanting to impose this on society even to the point of radical thinking and actions.

You continue to use the word "truth" in ways that don't seem anything to do with the truth of an claim. Rather they seem to be about various "core dogmas".

That is exactly what we are beginning to see, how radical policies denying free speech, and ideologies imposed on the majority like gender ideology. Many groups protesting and often getting violent. At least in the past when people did protest there was a united front.

You think that protesters and objectors were coherent and united in the past. That's funny Steve, very funny.

So we don't have to bring God into it, we can see how having no grounding for what is good and right regarding knowledge and truth can lead to chaos and instability. A nation and society need to have a common and united truth base otherwise it causes division and allows for ideologies often radical to dominate in the fight for which truth about how we should order society is recognized and implemented on society.
We do. It's been there all along in the founding principles, etc. of the US. These haven't changed. What has changed is that certain sub-factions are trying to assert their religious opinions over those American principles of secular government. This seems to be driven by a modest deference to their positions that was granted in the past when they were the majority. The denial of this preference of a shrinking minority over the rest of us is making them angry.
That is why we are seeing a rise in identity politics and radical ideologies from both the Left and the Right of politics.

Identity politics is as old as dirt. It goes way back before the West even existed.
 
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Bradskii

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No I am saying when it comes to your determination about when abortion is wrong at 1 week out from birth you are using an objective reason.

I'll say It again, we need to determine the (objective) facts before we can (personally) determine the morality of an act. At one week the fact is that what a woman is carrying can in no way be described as a person. On that objective fact I make my personal determination as to whether an abortion at that stage is morally acceptable or not.

The decision I make on any moral matter is mine alone. Based on objective facts. That I have to keep explaining that this deep into the conversation is frustrating.
 
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Bradskii

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What are facts. What are you assuming are facts. Is 'Truth' itself a fact, what about honesty or love. What about consciousness. We may know the fact of say Gravity through Newtons law but a person doesn't understand this. They will just nod their head and agree. Its not until we experience gravity when we keep falling down that we know its real. That's when it becomes real to us in the objective world.
Oh, come on...

What about gravity? If I drop my cup it will fall to the floor and break. That's a fact. If I tell you it's broken then I have made an honest statement. If I say I love my wife then that's a fact. If you say that your dog is conscious then that's a fact. They are all objective facts. And every act has facts associated with it that determine if it is moral or not.

Really, what is the problem here?
 
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timothyu

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One body flows from another as does life, both in a continuous stream. At no point is this lineage broken unless by natural causes or physical intervention. At that point a branch of life ceases to exist. In the same way the world, especially the West, forgets that it is all connected and fragments itself under the delusion separation and divisiveness is reality. The people were once a union and now have been fragmented by global corporate butchers. This abortive process will be their demise.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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One body flows from another as does life, both in a continuous stream. At no point is this lineage broken unless by natural causes or physical intervention. At that point a branch of life ceases to exist. In the same way the world, especially the West, forgets that it is all connected and fragments itself under the delusion separation and divisiveness is reality. The people were once a union and now have been fragmented by global corporate butchers. This abortive process will be their demise.

That's so beautiful and poetic, figure out a way to incorporate my daughters rape and that is literary gold.
 
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stevevw

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I'll say It again, we need to determine the (objective) facts before we can (personally) determine the morality of an act. At one week the fact is that what a woman is carrying can in no way be described as a person. On that objective fact I make my personal determination as to whether an abortion at that stage is morally acceptable or not.

The decision I make on any moral matter is mine alone. Based on objective facts. That I have to keep explaining that this deep into the conversation is frustrating.
OK I will simplify it. You said that 1 week out from birth is wrong. If someone else said to you that they think aborting a baby 1 week from birth is morally ok what would you tell them. Would you say they are objectively wrong.
 
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stevevw

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Oh, come on...

What about gravity? If I drop my cup it will fall to the floor and break. That's a fact. If I tell you it's broken then I have made an honest statement. If I say I love my wife then that's a fact. If you say that your dog is conscious then that's a fact. They are all objective facts. And every act has facts associated with it that determine if it is moral or not.

Really, what is the problem here?
The problem is can you prove that you love your wife or that your wife loves you even though you claim its a fact.
 
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stevevw

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A small, but welcome step from 500 years ago.
Yes but what has happened since has gone too far. Back then the idea was to challenge the churches overreach in civil matters. People still believed that God was central of establishing order in society not to get rid of God altogether as has happened today. Now its not the church or God that is our guide for moral affairs but the State.
 
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stevevw

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Reactionary politics and commentary about such. That's all I see.
How is it just reactionary. The articles I linked give arguments for the case. All your doing is making unsupported claims. I think they make a good argument and in fact their arguments are supported by the fact they are playing out in society today. Democracy is failing, the principle of Enlightenment is failing through identity politics which is anti Enlightenment because it pushes political correctness and ideologies onto the majority.
Part of the problem seems to be a reaching for "Truth" that is not the same as evidenced facts.
But transcendental ideas like 'Truth' is nonetheless a fact or a law in the universe so to speak as much as gravity. The point is a society needs a unified idea of what is true and real culturally. As colonialist the belief was Western ways of knowing the world was the truth and Indigenous peoples needed to give up their culture and assimilate into Western life.

As Christians the West believed that everyone should life as Christians and tried to spread that throughout the world. We condemned other cultures for not living according to those values. There was a clear and unified belief about what was 'truth' relating to these matters in how we should order society.

A reaching for truth 'is the fact'. We don't have to prove truth as a fact in the way science does likes its some object we can put in a test tube. Its fact is that when it comes to culture and morality we cannot achieve stability without a common and united 'Truth" as the saying goes 'A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand'.

Society always has its bases for "truth", sometimes it claims to be divine, sometimes from "tradition", or from other sources. The mix might be changing, but these things were never objective.
The idea that we strive for a truth points to there being a truth about how we should live and be ordered as a society. That we have tried different ways of achieving that doesn't negate the fact that there may be a truth to how we should live and be ordered as a society. Like anything its a case of trying to find that best way to live. Secular society believes it can achieve some true utopia of life.

The point is we lived the truth of God for millennia. Now we have rejected that truth and now there is no truth. That is what is causing the problems, that a society can somehow stumble along without a united truth and accommodate all relative truths at the same time. It just doesn't work.
You continue to use the word "truth" in ways that don't seem anything to do with the truth of an claim. Rather they seem to be about various "core dogmas".
Dogma happens when people deny the truth and as a result have no united truth. It becomes a divided society and inevitably becomes more radicalized.
You think that protesters and objectors were coherent and united in the past. That's funny Steve, very funny.
Coherent of not people knew what they stood for and were united. There were core principles and values we all shared such as the traditional family, God, Christian values. Now its about the identity group you belong to, cancelling past culture, redefining it as oppressive, political correctness to the point that minorities rule.
We do. It's been there all along in the founding principles, etc. of the US. These haven't changed. What has changed is that certain sub-factions are trying to assert their religious opinions over those American principles of secular government. This seems to be driven by a modest deference to their positions that was granted in the past when they were the majority. The denial of this preference of a shrinking minority over the rest of us is making them angry.
The one big difference is that the foundering fathers of Western nations believed God was central to grounding these principles. That for a secular society to be ordered and stable they needed God. The idea was not to reject God from the equation as they knew God balanced things out from society getting out of hand and becoming chaotic.
Identity politics is as old as dirt. It goes way back before the West even existed.
Not in the way it does today. We can go back only recently and see the parties were not as extreme. Labor or democrat's have become much more radicalized to the Left and the Right and are abandoning those core principles and philosophies they once represented. They are often beholden to minority interests that dictate policy for the majority, hence identity politics and political correctness. Its not the principles now but the identity that dictates terms. Democracy has broken down as a result.

That is why we are seeing more and more people dissatisfied and disillusioned by politics today. In the past there was a clear sense of cultural identity. You knew what you stood for and who you were as a nation and culture. Now who knows its all a mess and this is affecting society economically, socially and morally.. This is the result of abandoning those core truths and principles we once held and which were grounded in God. Now they are grounded in identity, human made truths.

More concerning is this idea that todays current predicament has always existed. That is the ideology of Post Modern society that everything that happens happened before, its just a natural and normal part of life. That there is no truth to any moral matters or anything for that matter. A bit like climate change deniers.
 
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Bradskii

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OK I will simplify it. You said that 1 week out from birth is wrong. If someone else said to you that they think aborting a baby 1 week from birth is morally ok what would you tell them. Would you say they are objectively wrong.
I'd obviously ask her for her reasons. What has she based her decisions on? How did she come to this conclusion? I certainly wouldn't say 'you are objectively wrong' because, as I keep saying, there are no objective moral acts.
 
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Bradskii

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The problem is can you prove that you love your wife or that your wife loves you even though you claim its a fact.
I don't need to prove it. Just like I don't need to prove that I don't like Adam Sandler films. Or I do like Negronis. Or I prefer Spain to Portugal. I tell you. You accept it.
 
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Bradskii

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As Christians the West believed that everyone should life as Christians and tried to spread that throughout the world. We condemned other cultures for not living according to those values. There was a clear and unified belief about what was 'truth' relating to these matters in how we should order society.
No there wasn't! Might made right. You think the Spaniards or the English or the Dutch wandered the planet just proseletising? Gimme a break. Indigenous cultures have been trampled by western societies. Which happened to be Christian.

There wasn't much that needed to happen for a complete take-over of Spain by the Muslims. It could have gone either way. And what if they had continued up through France and Britain? You'd now be writing your posts in Arabic. So would those Muslim values then be the ones to defend?

You are talking about historical accidents.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The one big difference is that the foundering fathers of Western nations believed God was central to grounding these principles. That for a secular society to be ordered and stable they needed God. The idea was not to reject God from the equation as they knew God balanced things out from society getting out of hand and becoming chaotic.

Tell me now, who are the founding fathers of the Western nations?

Who founded Germany? Bismark, Hitler, Kohl, Louis the German, Lothar of the Hill People

Who founded Switerland? Spain? Hungary?

(Oh, and a "secular society" is one that by definition isn't organized around a religion, so I'm not sure how your claim about needing god works out.)
 
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Tell me now, who are the founding fathers of the Western nations?

Who founded Germany? Bismark, Hitler, Kohl, Louis the German, Lothar of the Hill People

Who founded Switerland? Spain? Hungary?

(Oh, and a "secular society" is one that by definition isn't organized around a religion, so I'm not sure how your claim about needing god works out.)
The U.S was more.committed to Faith than other nations. "In God We Trust", "God Bless America* etc. Simple, repeated slogans that resonated with a nation of people who had a grounding in God. Unique to America, while other nations were educated to worship government.

The Wests fortunes couldn't be hurt through a stronger belief in God. That is my opinion though no individual should be compelled to believe, nations who promote God will be blessed.
 
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stevevw

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Tell me now, who are the founding fathers of the Western nations?

Who founded Germany? Bismark, Hitler, Kohl, Louis the German, Lothar of the Hill People

Who founded Switerland? Spain? Hungary?
But we are talking about Western culture not civilization or political philosophies alone. No single leader makes Western Culture. Its a philosophy, an ideology, a belief in a certain way of life that is promoted by the West. Either you or Hans Blaster mentioned Christianity being part of Western culture. It was identified later by the Western ideas of liberty, equality and freedom. That would then count out those nations and leaders as being part of Western culture.

Certainly we know that Hitler and his regime were not considered part of the Western allied forces. They opposed everything the West stood for.
(Oh, and a "secular society" is one that by definition isn't organized around a religion, so I'm not sure how your claim about needing god works out.)
Sorry I should clarify civil society.
 
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stevevw

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No there wasn't! Might made right. You think the Spaniards or the English or the Dutch wandered the planet just proseletising? Gimme a break. Indigenous cultures have been trampled by western societies. Which happened to be Christian.
Not just Christian. Western culture thought it was superior on all fronts. It was more about colonialism and imperialism then just churches spreading Christianity. It was a mix of church and State power.
There wasn't much that needed to happen for a complete take-over of Spain by the Muslims. It could have gone either way. And what if they had continued up through France and Britain? You'd now be writing your posts in Arabic. So would those Muslim values then be the ones to defend?

You are talking about historical accidents.
Then you have a very cynical view of our history. If Germany won the war we would be under Nazi rule. But that doesn't make it right. Western culture grew out of Christianity which was the basis ideas like equality, liberty, rights etc.. So we were fighting for a truth principle which Nazi's and Muslims were opposed to. If we did not win standing on those truths then someone else would have thank God and being on the other side no matter who ended up winning or losing doesn't diminish those truth principles. We would just add Spain to the nations opposing those truth principles. .

Those truth principles were self evident as Western nations mentioned in their Declarations and Constitutions and when we seen the Nazi's exterminating innocent people based on their race we stood on those same principles. It wasn't might, it was just Right, the right thing to do. The truth is worth fighting for and will win in the end because it grounds people in something greater than themselves as we have seen throughout history.

Sure the church over extended their power in trying to not only convert Indigenous peoples spiritually but culturally and politically but that was also the influence of the State and that doesn't make it right either or diminish the core Christian principles of equality, liberty, and human rights and freedoms to life. That is why these principles need grounding in God as we humans tend to take things too far.

The reason these truth principles lasted and won out in the end was their truth status not any might from nations enforcing them. Enforcing them undermines those very truth principles and any nation who does try to force them according to human ideas will fail.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

These truths were supported by Western culture and gave them the impetus to stand up for others who were being denied these truths or threatened their status in the world..
 
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Bradskii

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Those truth principles were self evident as Western nations mentioned in their Declarations and Constitutions and when we seen the Nazi's exterminating innocent people based on their race we stood on those same principles. It wasn't might, it was just Right, the right thing to do. The truth is worth fighting for and will win in the end because it grounds people in something greater than themselves as we have seen throughout history.

Sure the church over extended their power in trying to not only convert Indigenous peoples spiritually but culturally and politically but that was also the influence of the State and that doesn't make it right either or diminish the core Christian principles of equality, liberty, and human rights and freedoms to life. That is why these principles need grounding in God as we humans tend to take things too far.
I think we're done. I can't keep arguing against this. Thanks for your input...
 
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stevevw

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I don't need to prove it. Just like I don't need to prove that I don't like Adam Sandler films. Or I do like Negronis. Or I prefer Spain to Portugal. I tell you. You accept it.
Proving you don't like Adam Sandler films is different to proving Love. Films are about entertainment. Love is a real phenomena in the world. Love can cause people to act a certain way save life, sacrifice self and its opposite hate can cause people to harm others and even take a life. True Love requires honesty, trust and faith. Though I like Adam Sandler movies I don't think they require those qualities to watch them.
 
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