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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

Friedrich Rubinstein

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Begins, is not completed. When I plant a tomato seed, the life of a new tomato begins but the life is not completely formed until I am eating a BLT
A zygote is a whole organism of the species homo sapiens. By "complete" you seem to mean "fully developed". A human isn't fully developed until age 25. Strange standard you are setting there.

It's also absurd to claim that a green, unripe tomato is not yet a tomato. Or do you eat unripe tomatoes?
 
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rturner76

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A zygote is a whole organism of the species homo sapiens. By "complete" you seem to mean "fully developed". A human isn't fully developed until age 25. Strange standard you are setting there.

It's also absurd to claim that a green, unripe tomato is not yet a tomato. Or do you eat unripe tomatoes?
I mean developed enough to breathe on his/her own. The breath of life. God decides who to give it to. That is when a human life has been fully developed.
 
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NxNW

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That is what I have been saying. Emotional bias is denying extremely obvious, repeatedly proven biological facts everyone is taught in middle school.

I believe in facts. Scientific proof is going to win every single time.
I'm glad we agree: life begins after conception.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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I mean developed enough to breathe on his/her own. The breath of life. God decides who to give it to. That is when a human life has been fully developed.
Sure, you can throw biology out the window and make up your own definition of "life".
 
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NxNW

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"Impossible. Conception hasn't even occured yet. You can't grant permission to "someone" who does not yet exist."
We all know what a sequence of events are. If someone jumps off a roof they should not be surprised if they land up in hospital with broken legs.
This does not address your claim that permission was granted to the unborn before the unborn was conceived.

Pregnancy is the logical conclusion to sexual activity as broken bones are to jumping off a roof. Did you grant permition to your bones to break upon jumping off the roof? Yes, unless you are 3 and have no idea. We assume as an adult you understand cause and effect.
Cause and effect are not the issue. Permission is the issue, which can't be granted to "someone" who does not exist.

Would you ban every case of abortion that was not proven to be by rape? Meaning would you ban 98-99% of abortions caused by casual sex?
I'm not dodging the question: forum rules prohibit my answering it.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Identical twins. At conception, you have one single cell.
Include scientific evidence on embryology or its just your opinion not based on fact. A single zygote is 100% human. That doesn't change at twinning.
 
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YahuahSaves

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That is what I have been saying. Emotional bias is denying extremely obvious, repeatedly proven biological facts everyone is taught in middle school.

I believe in facts. Scientific proof is going to win every single time.
If that were true you would be linking the evidence from the science of embryology. But you don't, because you'd rather make something up to suit your emotional bias.
 
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YahuahSaves

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A zygote has the potential to become a human but it does not become a human (technically) until he/she is given the breath of life.
"Distinct. The unborn has a DNA and body distinct from her mother and father. She develops her own arms, legs, brain, nervous system, heart, and so forth.

Living. The unborn meets the biological criteria for life. She grows by reproducing cells. She turns nutrients into energy through metabolism. And she can respond to stimuli.

Human. The unborn has a human genetic signature. She is also the offspring of human parents, and humans can only beget other humans."

The unborn is a human being: What science tells us about unborn children
 
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YahuahSaves

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I mean developed enough to breathe on his/her own. The breath of life. God decides who to give it to. That is when a human life has been fully developed.
If you're a Christian then perhaps study the bible a bit more. Here's 1 example of the unborn being alive in the bible, John the baptist "leaped for joy" in the womb when he heard Mary's voice.

Luke 1:43-45
 
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rturner76

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Sure, you can throw biology out the window and make up your own definition of "life".
So a zygote can live outside the womb? It's the beginning of life but it must be developed. Do you understand that when a life form has begun forming it must complete it's development in order to breathe the breath of life that God gives to most babies? Do you think a zygote is a viable baby? I think someone else needs to go back to biology class.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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So a zygote can live outside the womb? It's the beginning of life but it must be developed. Do you understand that when a life form has begun forming it must complete it's development in order to breathe the breath of life that God gives to most babies? Do you think a zygote is a viable baby? I think someone else needs to go back to biology class.
Please cite your source that includes "viable outside the womb" in the definition of "life".
 
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rturner76

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"Distinct. The unborn has a DNA and body distinct from her mother and father. She develops her own arms, legs, brain, nervous system, heart, and so forth.

Living. The unborn meets the biological criteria for life. She grows by reproducing cells. She turns nutrients into energy through metabolism. And she can respond to stimuli.

Human. The unborn has a human genetic signature. She is also the offspring of human parents, and humans can only beget other humans."

The unborn is a human being: What science tells us about unborn children
Can it breathe? No, it needs the breath of live given by God himself.
 
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rturner76

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Please cite your source that includes "viable outside the womb" in the definition of "life".
Please tell me how the breath of life is given to a fetus that has not been born.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Please tell me how the breath of life is given to a fetus that has not been born.
Breathing air is not in any definition of "life" either. As I said, you can ignore biology, but then don't pretend to be scientific.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Can it breathe? No, it needs the breath of live given by God himself.
So God doesn't see the unborn as "alive" in your opinion? What about when he forms us in the womb? Do you think abortion is OK in God's eyes?
 
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rturner76

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It indicates a fully developed life
So God doesn't see the unborn as "alive" in your opinion? What about when he forms us in the womb? Do you think abortion is OK in God's eyes?
No, I don't think it's okay. I am not a woman so it will never be my decision. It's up to women to decide if society will accept lawful abortions or back alley abortions. As a man, it's out of my hands.
 
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rturner76

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Breathing air is not in any definition of "life" either. As I said, you can ignore biology, but then don't pretend to be scientific.
Oh, so you don't need to breathe in order to live?
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Oh, so you don't need to breathe in order to live?
"Life is a characteristic of a living organism that distinguishes the latter from a dead organism or a non-living thing, as specifically distinguished by the capacity to grow, metabolize, respond to stimuli, adapt, and reproduce." Dictionary

Breathing air is not part of any biological definition of life, no.

It might also interest you that the "breath of life" has nothing to do with lungs or air. I suppose you've never read the Bible in a language other than English. The word that's translated into English as "breath of life" (Ruach) is the same word that is used for the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh). You probably don't think that the Holy Spirit has lungs or breathes as you do.
 
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Include scientific evidence on embryology or its just your opinion not based on fact. A single zygote is 100% human. That doesn't change at twinning.
A single zygote is not two twins. Are you claiming otherwise?
 
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