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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

ralliann

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At best, that passages says that a Christian should not associate with such people. A far cry from shaming and stigmatizing them.

I even underlined it. Oh well my time hopefully was not wasted on sincere lurkers.

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Yet another excuse used by the pro-choicers.

Parallel with brain death


The irreversible cessation of brain function indicates the death of a human being. Some people argue, then, that the life of a human being cannot begin until brain activity begins.


But the reason (total) brain death matters is that it means the body can no longer function as an integrated whole (even if some cells and tissues are still alive). The brain, in older humans, is essential for that purpose. Before the development of the brain in the first place, however, the very young embryo does not require it in order to function as an organism and direct her own growth (including the development of her brain).


Thus, while a brain-dead patient is a corpse in the process of decay, an embryo is a living and growing individual.

From: The unborn is a human being: What science tells us about unborn children
 
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Kylie

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I even underlined it. Oh well my time hopefully was not wasted on sincere lurkers.

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
There's a big difference there.

If I refuse to spend time with someone, then that is all I am doing. I'm simply saying, "I don't wish to spend time with you." If they decide to feel shame, that's on them. My decision doesn't cause them shame, since there are plenty of people I'm sure who would not feel shame that I don't want to spend time with them.

However, if I shame someone, then I'd be going around telling everyone how bad they are.

Do you remember that episode of the Simpsons where Nelson laughs at the tall man in the small car? And remember how the tall man shames Nelson in front of the whole town? That's shaming someone. Do you think Nelson would have been shamed like that if the tall guy just decided he didn't want to spend time with Nelson? Of course not.


So there's a big difference.
 
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NxNW

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A fact is based on actual sources. You haven't provided any.
I explained it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

That human life begins at conception is a biological fact:
Conception begins a biological process that has the potential to eventually produce one or more human beings. But because human beings are distinct and quantifiable while zygotes are not, a zygote cannot be a human being.

Your linked article contains blatant inaccuracies, such as this quote: "While this article’s findings suggest a fetus is biologically classified as a human at fertilization...", which is absurd, because a fetus does not exist at fertilization. As such, it cannot be taken seriously.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Conception begins a biological process that has the potential to eventually produce one or more human beings. But because human beings are distinct and quantifiable while zygotes are not, a zygote cannot be a human being.

Your linked article contains blatant inaccuracies, such as this quote: "While this article’s findings suggest a fetus is biologically classified as a human at fertilization...", which is absurd, because a fetus does not exist at fertilization. As such, it cannot be taken seriously.
We can argue about semantics all day, but it doesn't change the fact that 95% of all biologists agree that a new human being starts its development at fertilization.
An embryo is a separate organism with the entire genetic information needed to grow into an adult human, it's not an organ of the mother. Being a separate and complete organism of the species homo sapiens makes the embryo a human by the very definition of the term. Hence the consensus among biologists here.

You are free to disagree with science of course, but "explaining to me" your opinion doesn't make your opinion a fact. You still haven't provided any credible sources for your opinion.
 
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comana

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Yet another excuse used by the pro-choicers.

Parallel with brain death


The irreversible cessation of brain function indicates the death of a human being. Some people argue, then, that the life of a human being cannot begin until brain activity begins.


But the reason (total) brain death matters is that it means the body can no longer function as an integrated whole (even if some cells and tissues are still alive). The brain, in older humans, is essential for that purpose. Before the development of the brain in the first place, however, the very young embryo does not require it in order to function as an organism and direct her own growth (including the development of her brain).


Thus, while a brain-dead patient is a corpse in the process of decay, an embryo is a living and growing individual.

From: The unborn is a human being: What science tells us about unborn children
All of which requires pulling nutrients from the woman’s body to construct its own body. This should require explicit permission.
 
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ralliann

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There's a big difference there.

If I refuse to spend time with someone, then that is all I am doing. I'm simply saying, "I don't wish to spend time with you." If they decide to feel shame, that's on them. My decision doesn't cause them shame, since there are plenty of people I'm sure who would not feel shame that I don't want to spend time with them.

However, if I shame someone, then I'd be going around telling everyone how bad they are.

Do you remember that episode of the Simpsons where Nelson laughs at the tall man in the small car? And remember how the tall man shames Nelson in front of the whole town? That's shaming someone. Do you think Nelson would have been shamed like that if the tall guy just decided he didn't want to spend time with Nelson? Of course not.


So there's a big difference.
There is also a big difference between then and now. Certainly today's standards and culture were very different. There was a time when a woman would not wear a dress which did not cover her ankles. It was shameful for them to do so. And people in that time and culture would have reacted towards them as shameful people. Similar to "shunning" which goes on in an "amish" community. No communication or involvement with the individual as though they were dead to them. Eveyone from your parents, siblings and the entire community treat you like you are dead. One thing has never changed, the wicked feel no shame at anything, not anything. Excuses when they get caught (serial killers) are simply manipulation.
Liken that to the Simpson video. The boy cries, the man puts him down. The boy shamedly pulls up his pants. The man begins to walk away, and the crowd to be dispersed. As soon as the boy is in position, he feels he is safe from being caught. turns and hollers hey, they all turn, and he laughs, and not only pulls down his pants again, but his under pants as well. And laughs as he fully exposes himself. According to you, he was not shamed, becaused he didn't really feel shame at all.
 
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NxNW

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Being a separate and complete organism of the species homo sapiens makes the embryo a human by the very definition of the term.
Separate from the identical twin that forms later? Which means the twin comes into existence *after* conception?

You are free to disagree with science of course, but "explaining to me" your opinion doesn't make your opinion a fact. You still haven't provided any credible sources for your opinion.
I proved that your source gets basic terminology wrong and therefore cannot be taken seriously.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Separate from the identical twin that forms later? Which means the twin comes into existence *after* conception?
It is a separate organism prior to twinning already, and 99% of embryos don't twin at all. If you want to say that 1 human splits into 2 humans, that's correct. Such is the biology of the human species at that stage of development.
Either way your own position is not tenable, as even saying that the twin comes into existence at twinning (while the other twin came into existence at fertilization) means that both the original human as well as the twin exist long before "higher brain functions" are developed. If you are so confused about twinning then an understandable position of yours would be to say that human development starts after twinning or, if no twinning occurs, at fertilization.
 
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YahuahSaves

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All of which requires pulling nutrients from the woman’s body to construct its own body. This should require explicit permission.
Wrong!

"The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes-the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Quoting Moore:

"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote."10 (Emphasis added.)

This new single-cell human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes11 (not carrot or frog enzymes and proteins), and genetically directs his/her own growth and development. (In fact, this genetic growth and development has been proven not to be directed by the mother.)12"

From: WHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN? "SCIENTIFIC" MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS
 
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comana

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Wrong!

"The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes-the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Quoting Moore:

"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote."10 (Emphasis added.)

This new single-cell human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes11 (not carrot or frog enzymes and proteins), and genetically directs his/her own growth and development. (In fact, this genetic growth and development has been proven not to be directed by the mother.)12"

From: WHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN? "SCIENTIFIC" MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS
Nothing there to contradict a growing fetus uses nutrients from the mother.
 
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NxNW

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If you are so confused about twinning then an understandable position of yours would be to say that human development starts after twinning or, if no twinning occurs, at fertilization.
I'm not confused about it at all. Because you don't know if twinning is going to occur until it happens, then at conception you don't have grounds to quantify the number of potential human(s) who are currently developing. The best you can say is maybe one, maybe two, possibly even three, but most likely zero. And that lack of quantifiability (if that's a word) is the problem with your argument. A 8.5 months, there is no problem quantifying the number of babies in the womb. At four hours after conception, you really don't have a clue.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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I'm not confused about it at all. Because you don't know if twinning is going to occur until it happens, then at conception you don't have grounds to quantify the number of potential human(s) who are currently developing. The best you can say is maybe one, maybe two, possibly even three, but most likely zero. And that lack of quantifiability (if that's a word) is the problem with your argument. A 8.5 months, there is no problem quantifying the number of babies in the womb. At four hours after conception, you really don't have a clue.
You aren't a Christian but I suppose you are familiar with the story of Adam and Eve anyway. Would you say that Adam was a human before Eve was created from Adam? That Eve was made from Adam doesn't mean Adam himself didn't exist as a human prior to that point.
Similarly, there is 1 embryo at the beginning, and it's a full human. Whether this full human is turned into 2 full humans or not doesn't negate the fact that the 1 human exists.

Btw, twinning can only occur during the first 2 weeks of development, so that would be your deadline. If you are so concerned about the number of babies in the womb, you can safely quantify them in the 3rd week. No need to wait 8.5 months.
 
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NxNW

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You aren't a Christian but I suppose you are familiar with the story of Adam and Eve anyway. Would you say that Adam was a human before Eve was created from Adam? That Eve was made from Adam doesn't mean Adam himself didn't exist as a human prior to that point.
My response would be that neither ever existed, so there's no point in arguing about them.

Similarly, there is 1 embryo at the beginning, and it's a full human. Whether this full human is turned into 2 full humans or not doesn't negate the fact that the 1 human exists.
Lets say conception has occurred on a Monday, and the zygote is going to split into identical twins on Thursday. But the woman takes an abortafacient on Wednesday, thus ending the pregnancy. How many deaths occurred?
Btw, twinning can only occur during the first 2 weeks of development, so that would be your deadline. If you are so concerned about the number of babies in the womb, you can safely quantify them in the 3rd week. No need to wait 8.5 months.
My point is that once you stipulate that life begins after conception, it's just a matter of deciding where to draw the line. Also, they're not babies int the 3rd week.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Lets say conception has occurred on a Monday, and the zygote is going to split into identical twins on Thursday. But the woman takes an abortafacient on Wednesday, thus ending the pregnancy. How many deaths occurred?
As many as there were zygotes at the time the medication took effect.

My point is that once you stipulate that life begins after conception, it's just a matter of deciding where to draw the line.
Twinning is not an argument in your favor, as twinning can only occur if a human exists already. Otherwise there is nobody to be twinned.
The only options for an embryo are
a) organ of the mother's body
b) separate organism and therefore an individual member of a species

There are no organisms that are not the full member of any species, and biology is very clear that the embryo is not part of the mother's body. So if you want to keep saying that the embryo is not a member of the species homo sapiens please explain what species the embryo belongs to.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Nothing there to contradict a growing fetus uses nutrients from the mother.
So? A person's intake of nutrients increases when they're pregnant, how does it affect the mother?

This should require explicit permission.
If the baby is the one being killed, it's the mother that requires "explicit permission".
 
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YahuahSaves

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My point is that once you stipulate that life begins after conception, it's just a matter of deciding where to draw the line. Also, they're not babies int the 3rd week.
The life-cycle starts at conception and ends when a person dies.

"The scientific evidence, however, overwhelmingly concludes just the opposite: The preborn child in her mother's womb — she's not just a "fetus," she's a baby."

"Many Iowans like me learned middle-school science through textbooks from publishers like McGraw-Hill. Today, those same science textbooks reveal near universal agreement that our human lives begin long before we're born, even before we're considered "viable" to survive outside the womb."

"In McGraw-Hill's textbook, "Patten's Foundations of Embryology, 6th ed.," for example, biology professor Bruce M. Carlson of the University of Michigan, writes, "The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."

"In other words, you and I begin our lives not when we're born, but when we're conceived."

"Another textbook, "Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd ed.," from publisher Wiley-Liss, asserts that fertilization is the "critical landmark" when a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed. Yet, the text explains, "life is a continuous process" throughout the pregnancy."

"Scientifically, we pass through different stages as we grow, but we don't pass from person to non-person, or vice versa."

From: The science is conclusive: That fetus is a baby
 
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comana

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So? A person's intake of nutrients increases when they're pregnant, how does it affect the mother?


If the baby is the one being killed, it's the mother that requires "explicit permission".
Women who carry to term will tell you their bodies are changed permanently. Just because it is what we evolved to do does not mean it doesn’t come at a physical cost.

Those who choose termination are not granting explicit permission for the use of their bodies to grow another human.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Those who choose termination are not granting explicit permission for the use of their bodies to grow another human.
When you engage in the child-making-act you are taking the risk of getting pregnant and therefore grant permission to another human to grow inside you.
It is silly to claim that you can cause another human to come into existence and then decide to not want that human to exist. That's like inviting someone on your property and then shooting them dead as an "intruder".
 
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