Science (observations in nature) - supports creation not evolution. So does the Bible

Roymond

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Even the Pope does not have anything against evolution. The Bible is not a science book. Every piece of evidence we have from multiple fields of science points to old earth and evolution. Absolutely nothing points to creation as taken from literal reading of the Bible.

Let's say it actually happened exactly like it was written. What would be the point of making every piece of physical evidence we can find to indicate otherwise ?
Here's just one piece of evidence: geologists know from work in the lab that all crystals have deformation limits, i.e. that each one has a maximum rate at which it can be bent without shattering. If you take rocks from high up in the Himalayas, and examine their mineral content, repeatedly rocks are found with crystal deformation. By measuring this deformation, scientists can put a lower age limit on the Himalayas, and when we did the calculations ourselves the figure for the absolute minimum age of those mountains turned out to be hundreds of thousands of years. But since we rarely find things where the absolute minimum is the case, the actual figure for the age of the Himalayas is probably at least a factor of ten times longer -- i.e. a few million years.
There's no way those mountains are younger than except... when God wasn't looking, Satan altered the rocks, or God is a deceiver. Since God is not a deceiver, the Himalayas are millions of years old.

BTW, from my studies in ancient near eastern literature I will say that nothing in the text of the first Genesis Creation account points to treating it with a literal reading.
 
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Roymond

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In other words, it can't really make a prediction. If it could, it would be more than generalities. The reason it cannot is that it's based on the premise of random change. Since it's random, it cannot make a real prediction. It can't even predict if an organism will evolve into a dead end or not, or why some organisms adapt and some do not.
(emphasis mine)

Wow --that shows a serious misunderstanding of science! Lots of sciences make rather general predictions -- geology, astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology, are good examples.

Then you make an error that shows you don't understand evolution in the least: "...it's based on the premise of random change". No, it doesn't: it includes an amount of random change since one type of mutations is random, but those don't accumulate randomly, they either (1) kill the offspring, (2) have a negative effect so the descendants die out over generations, (3)have some result that's meaningless to survival, or (4) bestows some sort of advantage.

The fascinating thing is that a #4 result can actually hang around as a #3 for numerous generations, but then conditions change and that #3 becomes a #4. As an example--

We don't know if humans can remain healthy in Mars gravity because the only way to find out is to build a structure (i.e. a space station) that can spin to provide that level of gravity and then have humans live there while their health is tracked. There are only a few possibilities: (a) no humans can keep good health, (b) all humans can keep good health, or (c) some humans can keep good health.
If it turns out to be (c), that would mean that some humans have been carrying around a gene that is worthless on Earth, but when their environment is altered to have Mars-level gravity, it's suddenly beneficial!
 
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Roymond

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Abiogenesis is indeed still largely unknown area. It is a separate field from evolution though.

Have you had time to think about yet that if God made everything like it is literally written in the Bible why did He create every piece of physical evidence we can find to point to conclusion that man evolved just like any other animal within their own branch in tree of life. The most successful of great apes.
A university friend who was majoring in both biology and math made a back-of-the-napkin calculation one night over beer and pizza as to how often God would have needed to intervene in evolution to be sure humans would result. The first one was obvious: putting together the first cell. After that he figured there would have been six more necessary interventions -- a total of seven.

Another one of the guys looked at his work and asked, "If God intervened just seven times, would we be able to tell that from randomness?" The answer is that no, we couldn't; seven non-random changes in billion of mutations both random and not vanishes into statistical noise.

The topic turned from there to how much work would it be for a Creator to put together an entire universe that appears to have spun from a primordial "hot spot" with life that appears to come from evolution, and the answer was that it would be thousands of times harder than making everything perfect -- and the best way to come up with the wide variety of evidence we see would be to just go ahead and create a universe that springs from a small set of constants and develops on its own.

To which someone replied, "Are we the experimental universe or the keeper?"
 
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Think...

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Even the Pope does not have anything against evolution. The Bible is not a science book.
It's interesting that you state this with the implied premise that a science book is much more legitimate.

How do you profess Christianity if you put more faith in science than God and God's Word?

You DO know that makes science your religion, right?
Every piece of evidence we have from multiple fields of science points to old earth and evolution. Absolutely nothing points to creation as taken from literal reading of the Bible.
Absolutely nothing?

That is only true for the mentally and spiritually barren.

Again, what constitutes your profession as a Christian?

What do you base your claim of being a Christian on if you believe nothing that the Bible teaches?

There is TONS of evidence for Creation and even the most educated evolutionist knows this and has their own rebuttals for it. NONE of them would claim that NOTHING points to Creation.
Let's say it actually happened exactly like it was written. What would be the point of making every piece of physical evidence we can find to indicate otherwise ?
God has a very specific, and Genius, point in doing that.

And it's the same point He had when He explained to His disciples why He would NOT speak the Truth in front of a certain people in public. He didn't WANT them to know the Truth and He wanted there to be plenty of evidence for their arrogant, prideful, natures to support their own disbelief with.
 
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Roymond

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I did not ask what God created, nor how he created, so this did not answer my question at all. I asked what the OP (or now you) meant by saying God created all life on Earth. "According to the Genesis text you referenced," I had asked, "what does it mean for God to create something? [Does it mean bringing] it into material existence (ex nihilo)?" And do pay attention to that clause, please ("according to the Genesis text"). I'm looking for an exegetical case to be made.
(emphasis mine)

See that electron that just zoomed across your screen?

Of course you didn't, but this relates to Creation: the only reason that electron got from one side of your screen to the other is that each tiny moment of its existence it was willed into existence by God -- that's what's meant by the scripture saying that He sustains all things.

So God created/creates everything in existence each moment of Planck time (assuming that's actually the smallest unit of time). He does it faithfully, keeping the rules the same, never wavering -- except on the few occasions when He makes a change in the Matrix bits He's sustaining between one moment and the next, instances we call "miracles" and many foolishly consider to be violations of the laws of physics.

So whatever He is doing in that ongoing creating, that's what it means for Him to create something.


We now return you to your expected exegetical program.
 
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Roymond

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It's interesting that you state this with the implied premise that a science book is much more legitimate.

How do you profess Christianity if you put more faith in science than God and God's Word?

You DO know that makes science your religion, right?
Nice fallacious argument: false dichotomy to unjustified conclusion.
What do you base your claim of being a Christian on if you believe nothing that the Bible teaches?
Another fallacious argument: false accusation.
There is TONS of evidence for Creation and even the most educated evolutionist knows this and has their own rebuttals for it. NONE of them would claim that NOTHING points to Creation.
Another fallacy: moving the goalposts. You changed what was said to make your statement.

BTW, the evidence for Creation, according to my old university intelligent design club, is just two things: cosmology and evolution. Those explain everything else, but nothing explains them -- and both constitute amazingly incredibly elegant design for "self-building" systems.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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This reminds me of a paper we read in a 300-level botany course, about how around craters in London after WWII ended new species of plants were found that no one had ever seen. They hypothesized that heat and pressure had altered the genetic material in seeds and a very few seeds survived this and sprouted. Some even propagated. These days we could do a genetic analysis and decipher what species those seeds came from and determine what changed. I wonder if anyone has revisited this.

My simpler, testable hypothesis? Foreign seeds contaminating Nazi bombs. Was that species of plant found in Germany?
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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The only reason that electron got from one side of your screen to the other is that each tiny moment of its existence was willed ... by God—that is what's meant by the scripture saying that He sustains all things.

Fair enough. However, I didn't ask about scriptures that say God sustains all things (e.g., Heb 1:3; cf. Col 1:17). My question was in reference to original creation in Genesis 1, which is usually understood as creatio ex nihilo, not creatio continua. Is it your position that God's original creation in Genesis 1 is the same as his providential creation now? Or is your view more similar to Clement of Alexandria, wherein subsequent creatio continua follows from an original creatio ex nihilo? If the latter, then my original question stands in need of an answer.

---

Edited to add:

... and the best way to come up with the wide variety of evidence we see would be to just go ahead and create a universe that springs from a small set of constants and develops on its own.

Except you don't believe the universe develops on its own, given your statement about the electron that zoomed across my screen. You're a Christian theist, not a deist.
 
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Homeowner

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He didn't WANT them to know the Truth and He wanted there to be plenty of evidence for their arrogant, prideful, natures to support their own disbelief with.

Is that not straight out deceiving ? Thought that was more of the modus operandi of the other side ?

If God - an omnipotent entity - does not want us to know the truth then logically we would not. What is left after this little premise ?

Actually if you follow that line of thought what reason do we have to trust the Bible in first place. Perhaps He just did not want us to know the Truth ?

By your logic.
 
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The Barbarian

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Science confirms that there is not one observation of dust,rocks,gas,sun-light producing a horse, or rabbit, or amoeba, or bacteria over time.
And yet God confirms that the unliving Earth brought forth life as He created it to do. You're selling God short; He is quite capable of making a universe that will bring forth life.
Science confirms that observations of over 80,000 generations of bacteria in the "long running evolution experiment" results in "more bacteria" - i.e. more prokaryotes - and not a single eukaryote. That's more generations of direct observation than supposedly it took for humans to evolve in the first place.
You've sold Him short, again. The evolution of eukaryotes was by endosymbiosis, the incorporation of cells within other cells in a functional relationship. Mitochondria, chloroplasts, and other organelles confirm this. Is there evidence that this actually happened? Turns out, there is. Jeong observed bacteria and amoebae to form an obligate endosymbiosis, to the point that neither cell can now live without the other. God is lot smarter than you seem to think He is.
Science confirms that when something vastly complex in terms of machinery with encoding, decoding , manufacture, error-correction is detected it is a sign of intelligent design and manufacture and not merely a function of what we expect from dust,gas,rocks and sunlight "in sufficient quantities given enough time and chance".
The Mississippi river system, a highly complex system that maintains drainage, valley systems, reconfiguration of channels and adaptation to climate change, was designed by no one. God merely created nature to do things like this. And you're still arguing that He can't.
 
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The Barbarian

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Is that not straight out decieving ? Thought that was more of the modus operandi of the other side ?

If God - an omnipotent entity - does not want us to know the truth then logically we would not. What is left after this little premise ?
Yes. If we acknowledge that God is truth, then we cannot accept the argument presented against evolution.
 
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Diamond7

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Science confirms that there is not one observation of dust,rocks,gas,sun-light producing a horse, or rabbit, or amoeba, or bacteria over time.
Do you have a PhD in astrophysics? What is your qualification to make this statement?
 
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Roymond

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My simpler, testable hypothesis? Foreign seeds contaminating Nazi bombs.
It's a statistically near-impossible hypothesis, since the botanists assessed the likelihood of survival of any plant seed through a bomb explosion as one in tens of thousands. That highly favors local seeds, especially considering how many plant seeds can lie dormant for years until something changes and they sprout.
[This is something that annoys me no end in my conservation work: one invasive species produces roughly nine seeds per pod, and a mature plant can have two hundred pods; there's a weevil that supposedly has spread to the area that eats four out of five seeds in the pods, but that's still three hundred-sixty seeds per plant, and they tend to grow a half dozen per square yard so in one flowering season over two thousand new seeds get dropped in every square yard. The seeds have a viability half-life of about eight years, so when I remove all the invasive plants from an area that's been infested for ten years, there will be about nine hundred seeds still viable from the first year, nine hundred ninety from the next year, over a thousand from the third year, and so on for a total of over thirteen thousand viable seeds per square yard -- about ten per square inch! If I can keep all new seeds from being deposited, it will take over eighty years for the concentration of seeds to drop to ~1 per square foot.]

So in any given patch of soil there can easily be a few thousand seeds waiting for the right stimulus for them to sprout. For the "imported from Germany" hypothesis, the equivalent likelihood could only be achieved by deliberately loading each bomb with a few thousand seeds.

Though I think there's another sound reason against the Germany-as-source hypothesis: seeds openly exposed to the bomb explosion would be far less likely to survive than seeds with just a centimeter of soil or plant litter over them.

Interesting intellectual exercise, though -- nice point!
Was that species of plant found in Germany?

The new species wasn't found anywhere -- that's why they called it a new species. They managed to classify them by the family the seeds came from; I don't remember if they managed a genus classification or not.

I forgot a detail when I posted about this: it wasn't just heat and pressure but chemicals as well; apparently some of the chemicals resulting from the explosives used in the bombs were mutagens.

Once again I'm frustrated that I had to put most of my university files in storage; otherwse I might have been able to search through botany class notes to find the title of the original paper. As is, scientific papers rarely have titles that describe things in ordinary terms; instead of "New Species Found in WWII London bomb craters" the title could be "Effects of Sudden Change of Local Temperature, Pressure, and Chemistry on Germ Plasm in Plants" or something even more obscure.

[For fun I googled that hypothetical title. The only relevant result was a study of the effects of sudden pressure changes to cell walls and membranes, which reported that both external and internal membranes can be ruptured -- not even a hint of whether there might be any DNA changes.]
 
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Roymond

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Fair enough. However, I didn't ask about scriptures that say God sustains all things (e.g., Heb 1:3; cf. Col 1:17). My question was in reference to original creation in Genesis 1, which is usually understood as creatio ex nihilo, not creatio continua. Is it your position that God's original creation in Genesis 1 is the same as his providential creation now? Or is your view more similar to Clement of Alexandria, wherein subsequent creatio continua follows from an original creatio ex nihilo? If the latter, then my original question stands in need of an answer.
I'll bow to Clement -- I'll have to go read what he says.

For what it's worth, that's an in-universe answer. I recall the idea of one mystic being mentioned (I think in connection with reading Augustine in the original) about this; he maintained that God created the entire temporal extent of existence all at once, both what to us is past as well as what to us is the future, making it as a single whole -- at least from God's perspective. The main topic wasn't creation, though, it was predestination -- lots of fun since that mystic maintained that we still have free will (something my older brother the mathematician once said as not being a problem if you posit certain conditions in low-value-n - dimensional geometry, but then he said all theological ontology is really just mathematics).
Except you don't believe the universe develops on its own, given your statement about the electron that zoomed across my screen. You're a Christian theist, not a deist.
True, but since God maintains the universe in accord with the parameters He established, there would be no way to tell the difference between a theistic and a deistic universe with the exception of being present at the occurrence of a miracle.

The more interesting issue is if God is sustaining a universe continually, is random behavior really random? Asked in another way, can God uncouple Himself from His creation such that His creation can experience actual randomness?
 
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Roymond

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Is that not straight out deceiving ? Thought that was more of the modus operandi of the other side ?

If God - an omnipotent entity - does not want us to know the truth then logically we would not. What is left after this little premise ?

Actually if you follow that line of thought what reason do we have to trust the Bible in first place. Perhaps He just did not want us to know the Truth ?

By your logic.
This brings to mind a comment one day in our university informal 'intelligent design' club: positing the existence of a Creator, what reasons are there for us to believe that He would care about communicating with us? [As a response to the proposal that once one has concluded from science that there is a Designer/Creator, the next step is to evaluate all claimants to being said entity.]
 
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Roymond

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And yet God confirms that the unliving Earth brought forth life as He created it to do. You're selling God short; He is quite capable of making a universe that will bring forth life.
I recall a university student who'd never so much as opened a Bible before, when the study group he was in decided to read Genesis. When they got to where God told the land to "Bring forth!" this student's jaw dropped and he exclaimed, "That's evolution!" Of course what he meant was "That's abiogenesis", but my point is that an open mind encountering the first Genesis Creation account will have no problem with evolution because the beginning of it is right there.

[Of course that requires not counting the days as twenty-four hour, but given the literary type(s) of that first Creation account that's no problem.]
You've sold Him short, again. The evolution of eukaryotes was by endosymbiosis, the incorporation of cells within other cells in a functional relationship. Mitochondria, chloroplasts, and other organelles confirm this. Is there evidence that this actually happened? Turns out, there is. Jeong observed bacteria and amoebae to form an obligate endosymbiosis, to the point that neither cell can now live without the other. God is lot smarter than you seem to think He is.
That's one of the seven points a friend judged as being a step God provided; the first was life itself arising. IIRC the third was multicellularity.

BTW, this reminded me of an interesting case of forced evolution I read about in a grad school class called "Human Ecology". A forestry/wildlife ranger examining the territory of his new posting learned that there was an abandoned gold mine that had been poorly shut down, and the map showed a stream running through. He decided to take a look, and found that starting at a junction with another stream as he went upstream the stream from the mine had fewer and fewer animals, so he decided to take samples. It turned out that arsenic was leaking from the mine tailings, making the stream toxic.
Most of his water samples were sterile, but some taken near the stream junction -- both upstream and downstream -- had a number of bacteria. He thought about this and decided to do some experimenting. What he did was take the most robust sample from upstream of the junction, returned to its location, and scooped up a bucket of water. The water went into a small aquarium, to which he added plenty of material for the bacteria to thrive. After a week he then scooped half the water out of that aquarium and put it into another, this time increasing the arsenic concentration. There was a massive die-off in the new aquarium, but a tiny percentage of his microorganisms survived, and in a week's time had fully populated that aquarium -- at which point he repeated the process. I don't remember the number of iterations, but he eventually reached a point where the transferred population didn't survive even with the slightest increase in arsenic: his microorganisms were far more arsenic-tolerant than what he'd started with, but only so far.
Undiscouraged, he backed up a few aquaria and started a new line, in fact switching to quart jars so he could run several lines at once, trying to determine if some from the earlier population had a higher arsenic tolerance.
Skipping a bunch of futile attempts that showed no improved arsenic toleration, one say there was a difference: the population in one jar wasn't dying out! The population dwindled, then recovered, and one particular type of bacteria didn't just survive, it thrived. So he started a new line branching from that sample and started increasing the arsenic concentration to ever-higher levels. He found that die-offs stopped after a few iterations, so he kept transferring samples to new jars and increasing the arsenic concentration right up to where it matched that in the stream right below the mine.
Some of you probably recognize what happened: he'd bred a batch of microbes that was a lot more arsenic-tolerant than any in the stream, and then some mutation increased the tolerance to total immunity. But when he took his work to a university biology lab, they learned that something more had happened: that one strain of bacteria hadn't just become immune to arsenic, it was metabolizing arsenic!

I don't know if it was determined that he'd managed to prompt the development of a new species, but at the very least he demonstrated that mutations are not all bad, as some creationists maintain; here, at any rate, a mutation had given a species an ability none of its ancestors had had -- i.e. a new ability, built on new genetic information.
The Mississippi river system, a highly complex system that maintains drainage, valley systems, reconfiguration of channels and adaptation to climate change, was designed by no one. God merely created nature to do things like this. And you're still arguing that He can't.
Riverine geology was fun. From just a few simple rules, complexity emerges.
 
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The Barbarian

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Riverine geology was fun. From just a few simple rules, complexity emerges.
Have you read Adrian Bejan's Design in Nature? Much of what we take to be "design" is simply the tendency of systems to facilitate flow. Interestingly, Bejan was able to use his Constructal Law to predict performance of Olympic athletes and a variety of other, apparently unrelated processes. Rivers form and change in accord with the law, as do many other things.
Adrian Bejan & Constructal Law
 
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When you said that God "created" all life on Earth, what do you mean? According to the Genesis text you referenced, what does it mean for God to create something? Bring it into material existence (ex nihilo)?
have you read the text.?

How is that part the least bit confusing??

It's one thing to say "I don't believe the text" it is another to claim that the very simple and basic nature of the text is too confusing to read and know with some levle of certainty what the author writing 4000 years ago was conveying to the newly freed slaves at Sinai.
 
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