What is 'Wrong'?

[dani'el]

Titus 3:8-9 ESV The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Being Messianic for well over 10 yrs, and in Hebrew Roots before that, I have noticed we tend to be the ones who think and question; not the ones who blindly follow. We tend to live 'outside the box' of modern convention. But that comes with a caveat. All too often we confuse questioning with just plain disbelieving and/or denying. This can lead to some ridiculous arguments which waste our time and demonstrate to the world that we are just plain insane; zealous for controversy rather than for God.

For example; I question science. Too often in their efforts to disprove God scientists fit their evidence to their own fore-drawn conclusions. But we can, and too often do the same- assuming if modern science tells us something it must be a lie. I often say we as Messianics pass everything through the fire and keep only what remains. But this should include our own assumptions, presumptions, and any other 'umptions' we may hold dear to our hearts.

Not everything Christianity teaches is wrong. The same holds true with Judaism, and even with most truly vile religions; including religion parading as science. In fact, the most dangerous theologies, ideologies (and yes, any other 'ologies') bury their lies in mountains of truth. Yet I see many, often very intelligent Messianics arguing over the most ridiculous things. And I must admit that it can be seductive, and we are easily drawn in. I've engaged in many such arguments myself. But in the end I usually have to conclude in agreement with that great theologian, Samuel Clements:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. You'll just waste your time and annoy the pig."

(And lest I start my own wild and crazy argumentative thread: the part about S Clements being a theologian was said tongue-in-cheek.)

 

[Lulav]

This seems like a thinly veiled rant against some of the Members of this forum.

Where I attend services we sing every shabbat
Henei ma tov

Or maybe you'd prefer a version made over a half a century ago by Harry Belafonte from England

 

[dani'el]

This seems like a thinly veiled rant against some of the Members of this forum.

Where I attend services we sing every shabbat
Henei ma tov ...

Or maybe you'd prefer a version made over a half a century ago by Harry Belafonte from England

I can see how this might get your hackles up. But no, I've said this many times in different places to other people. And yes, a couple of threads here reminded me of this. But I chose not to name names or reference the threads because I wanted to discuss the point; not specific people, Nor do I want to rehash arguments being made elsewhere.

I chose science as an example because I have been guilty of this error myself going both directions. And it is far more limited in scope than, say a topic like dismissing everything Christianity taught me (a very common stage most Messianics raised in the church go through, but one which can lead off on infinite rabbit trails). I just think no matter the topic, we must guard against this error of either blind acceptance or blanket condemnation.

As to my point, and disregarding any other threads and/or posters: do you agree or disagree? If you like I can provide an alternative (though very obviously crazy) example: I was once asked to go back to my very small town in a very rural community where I was very well known, but already suspected of some degree of insanity. There I was to be the representative to educate the people about some ship that had disappeared in the 40's, then reappeared with sailors stuck in the bulkheads. I declined that one, not wishing to confirm everyones suspicions. Not to mention I was a.) skeptical of the event, and b.) already suspicious of the sanity of person asking me. But I have fallen for other things of a similar nature (which I am keeping to myself lest my sanity be called into question here ). So some of this is from personal experience; a very human trait I too must overcome. And some from observation.

Blood moons, deniers of Paul's apostleship, Ebionism (or any of the multitude of 'ism's' that infect Messianism) ... we could go on and on. And if anyone wishes to discuss I'd prefer such examples to a particular thread or member. I think I raise an important point; something we must all guard against. Agree or disagree? Why?

As to the question of music: I like very little music. And I dislike most of it. But in general I prefer older music to the newer stuff; though frankly they could do away with the musical portion of service, just blow the shofar, sing the Shema, and get right into the Word and I'd be a happy kind of Messianic! Ah, but now you probably think I am crazy ...
'K, I'll own that!

 

[Lulav]

I can see how this might get your hackles up.

I'm sure that's just a figure of speech you have occasion to use but as for a pseudo apology it stinks. I am not a dog or any kind of animal and don't really care for anyone indicating so.

But no, I've said this many times in different places to other people. And yes, a couple of threads here reminded me of this. But I chose not to name names or reference the threads because I wanted to discuss the point; not specific people, Nor do I want to rehash arguments being made elsewhere.

Well if you've looked around recently at the threads in this forum posting this now, this timing is way off. Please consider that as you go on. Also as a newbie to this forum I think you should be a bit more laid back in your expressed opinions.

I chose science as an example because I have been guilty of this error myself going both directions. And it is far more limited in scope than, say a topic like dismissing everything Christianity taught me (a very common stage most Messianics raised in the church go through, but one which can lead off on infinite rabbit trails). I just think no matter the topic, we must guard against this error of either blind acceptance or blanket condemnation.

As to my point, and disregarding any other threads and/or posters: do you agree or disagree? If you like I can provide an alternative (though very obviously crazy) example: I was once asked to go back to my very small town in a very rural community where I was very well known, but already suspected of some degree of insanity. There I was to be the representative to educate the people about some ship that had disappeared in the 40's, then reappeared with sailors stuck in the bulkheads. I declined that one, not wishing to confirm everyones suspicions. Not to mention I was a.) skeptical of the event, and b.) already suspicious of the sanity of person asking me. But I have fallen for other things of a similar nature (which I am keeping to myself lest my sanity be called into question here ). So some of this is from personal experience; a very human trait I too must overcome. And some from observation.

Blood moons, deniers of Paul's apostleship, Ebionism (or any of the multitude of 'ism's' that infect Messianism) ... we could go on and on. And if anyone wishes to discuss I'd prefer such examples to a particular thread or member. I think I raise an important point; something we must all guard against. Agree or disagree? Why?

As to the question of music: I like very little music. And I dislike most of it. But in general I prefer older music to the newer stuff; though frankly they could do away with the musical portion of service, just blow the shofar, sing the Shema, and get right into the Word and I'd be a happy kind of Messianic! Ah, but now you probably think I am crazy ...
'K, I'll own that!

No, I don't think you crazy, I realize as we get older we get rather more intolerant of 'frippery'.

As for the song, Henei Ma Tov ----Behold how good it is for brothers to dwell together in unity. I think we should practice that here, in this forum so our light can shine amongst all the other 'flavors' here. Being Messianic already makes others think we are 'off our nut' and subject to ridicule on a steady basis.

But the fact is, most who have grown up in the church found Messianic Judaism because they were searching for truth. It's not just truth about religions but all aspects of life and it is tied together.

It comes down to two things,

Good and Evil
Truth and Lies

You can't opt for one and not get the other. We are of the Kingdom of God but we are not physically living there at present. We are in enemy territory and must act accordingly.

I can see you are a bare bones, no nonsense kind of guy but I hope you can appreciate what I'm saying.

Shabbat Shalom!

 

[daq]

Titus 3:8-9 ESV The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Simply for context:

Titus 3:1-11 TS2009
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,
2 not to slander anyone, not to be quarrelsome, to be gentle, showing all meekness to all men.
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, led astray, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in evil and envy, being hated and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of Elohim our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 He saved us, not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His compassion, through the washing of rebirth, and renewal by the Set-apart Spirit,
6 which He poured out on us richly through יהושע Messiah our Saviour,
7 that having been declared right by His favour we should become heirs according to the expectation of everlasting life.
8 Trustworthy is the word, [logos] and in this regard I wish you to strongly affirm, that those who have believed in Elohim should keep their minds on maintaining good works. This is good and profitable to men.
9 But keep away from foolish questions, and genealogies, and strife and quarrels about the Torah, for they are unprofitable and useless.
10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a one has been perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.

Moreover I suspect that verse eight, which I have highlighted above, may actually mean something more like trustworthy is the Logos.

 

[dani'el]

... But the fact is, most who have grown up in the church found Messianic Judaism because they were searching for truth. It's not just truth about religions but all aspects of life and it is tied together. ... .
I absolutely can agree with [that point]!

So let's discuss just this. The truth is what led me to Hebrew Roots (I know, but I was unaware of MJ, and everyone has to start somewhere). HR could get really confusing, and I had to use a lot of discernment there. But when you found a truth, it was illuminating!

I came across MJ not too far into HR. It was a bit daunting trying to sort out what MJ was. And the there were those "Nazarenes!" Crazy people, they kept all those "Laws." Who needs that? Right?

It took me a while to let go many of the shackles; things I was taught in church. But as I learned more the truth sank in to the point i could no longer deny it. And I traveled different places and sought out MJ assemblies. Never saw anyone with horns. But some were very strict, following the modern Jewish model. Others were more liberal (in the good sense, not political lest we stoop to opening that can of worms). Others fall between those parameters. But it was good to be with other Messianic believers, regardless how they wore their tzitzyot or ordered their service. And the first time I went I knew I had just heard the truth, spoken plainly and without excuse. I was hooked!

So yes, I very much agree the truth was important in leading me to MJ. Moreover, the truth is what keeps me there. And there is a caveat whenever training in studies dealing with life: "If something is true, it is universally true." Meaning it crosses the boundaries which define different disciplines. So I believe your statement "It's not just truth about religions but all aspects of life and it is tied together" also to be true, and a good point.

BUT: (always a but), can the truth ever be divisive?

 

[dani'el]

I suspect that verse eight, which I have highlighted above, may actually mean something more like trustworthy is the Logos.

Yes. One of the things Messianics do that can drive others crazy is we tend to sub-in terms from either Hebrew or Greek which give a more complete sense of what is being said:

• πιστός pistos: trustworthy; faithful, sure, true
• λόγος logos: something said; a topic (subject of discourse); reasoning; motive; computation; account, cause, communication; concerning, doctrine, fame; intent, matter, mouth, preaching, teaching, question, reason, reckon; say, shew; speaker, speech, talk, thing; tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work

Wow ... context, context, context! I underlined the ideas I thought most applicable. I think the NKJV captured the meaning as good as any:

• 3.8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

 

[daq]

Yes. One of the things Messianics do that can drive others crazy is we tend to sub-in terms from either Hebrew or Greek which give a more complete sense of what is being said:

• πιστός pistos: trustworthy; faithful, sure, true
• λόγος logos: something said; a topic (subject of discourse); reasoning; motive; computation; account, cause, communication; concerning, doctrine, fame; intent, matter, mouth, preaching, teaching, question, reason, reckon; say, shew; speaker, speech, talk, thing; tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work

Wow ... context, context, context! I underlined the ideas I thought most applicable. I think the NKJV captured the meaning as good as any:

• 3.8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Problem is that there is no word in the text for "this" when it is rendered to say "This is a faithful saying". That's not a translation but an interpretation because "this" isn't in the text.

 

[dani'el]

Problem is that there is no word in the text for "this" when it is rendered to say "This is a faithful saying". That's not a translation but an interpretation because "this" isn't in the text.

True. It's more an interpolation, wherein the "interpreter" tries to write it so it is more readable to a modern English speaking audience. He/they and I looked at all the relevant connotations of the words that were used in the Greek, and tried to convey the essence of the meaning as closely as possible. As I imagine you are well aware, translation is rarely a word-for-word substitution affair.

That aside, how would you translate/transliterate this?

 

[daq]

True. It's more an interpolation, wherein the "interpreter" tries to write it so it is more readable to a modern English speaking audience. He/they and I looked at all the relevant connotations of the words that were used in the Greek, and tried to convey the essence of the meaning as closely as possible. As I imagine you are well aware, translation is rarely a word-for-word substitution affair.

That aside, how would you translate/transliterate this?

I would be as cognizant and compliant with the context as possible. Look back at verses five and six: the washing of regeneration is the washing of the water in the word, (rhema, Ephesians 5:26), which brings about renewal in the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5). These things the Father shed abundantly through His Chosen One, (Titus 3:6), in the Gospel accounts, by way of his all-important Testimony which contains things kept secret from the foundation of the world. Logos is reasoning, wisdom, logic, not just words but sense, paradigm, and thinking: the mind of Elohim, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and the true Light which enlightens every one coming into the world.

Trustworthy is the Logos, (reply #5).

 

[dani'el]

I would be as cognizant and compliant with the context as possible. Look back at verses five and six: the washing of regeneration is the washing of the water in the word, (rhema, Ephesians 5:26), which brings about renewal in the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5). These things the Father shed abundantly through His Chosen One, (Titus 3:6), in the Gospel accounts, by way of his all-important Testimony which contains things kept secret from the foundation of the world. Logos is reasoning, wisdom, logic, not just words but sense, paradigm, and thinking: the mind of Elohim, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and the true Light which enlightens every one coming into the world.

Trustworthy is the Logos, (reply #5).

Interesting. I can see that interpretation having merit.

 

[Lulav]

BUT: (always a but), can the truth ever be divisive?

Of course, truth is a double edged sword. Yeshua even spoke about this. It's like a wedding vow to our bridegroom, we must foresake all others (truth) and cling unto him only.

He is the Way, the TRUTH and the life.

The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. ~ luke 12:53

I think Paul might have gotten them mixed up. I think the sword of truth is what we need to weld for protection against the enemy.

1. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth,
2. and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
3. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
4. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
5. And take the helmet of salvation, and
6. the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:Eph 6

 

[dani'el]

Of course, truth is a double edged sword. Yeshua even spoke about this. It's like a wedding vow to our bridegroom, we must foresake all others (truth) and cling unto him only.

Very true. But I was more thinking about our interpretations of scripture. The Bible is full of scripture saying be in agreement, don't be divisive. But it also says "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Prov 27:17. Which is what we are doing here, really.

Like in my response to daq, above. We both had a different take on the same verse. Different perspectives. Now, I could yell at him "YOU'RE WRONG!" However I can see merit in his interpretation; a perspective I never would have gotten had I not come here and asked, and 'listened.'

There are a LOT of connotations in the word λόγος logos, and he focused on different ones than me. And I really can see merit in what he said. So disagreement does not necessarily have to cause divisiveness. However I left a Messianic synagogue where the rabbi's view was dabar, logos; and in the sense of that is what we were to believe. I now go where they are more tolerant, even welcoming of differing views; within limits, of course.

1 Corinthians 1:10 NASB Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree [Lit say the same thing] and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete [united] in the same mind and in the same judgment.

So, am I wrong? Should we all come to the same understanding? Or should we just consider each others views, gleaning what truth we can from them and moving on without rancor? Or should we just blindly follow one leader, agreeing with every word he speaks?

 

[Lulav]

I think there is only one we should follow and that needs to line up with Torah, that is the thing which we all need to measure everything against. This includes anything written afterwards. We must be aware of the true depth of our enemy who will resort to anything.

All's fair in love and war the saying goes and the one who set the boundaries of everything surely has set the boundaries for this also.

Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.​